Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)

[oldbike54]

 The Triumph Bonneville (Turner version) was built in response to the demand from America for more power . At its introduction , Turner stated that "this will be the bike that ruins us". It took a few years, but he was probably right . Somewhere in an interview he claimed he really wanted to develop a 500 CC engine with some basic refinements like a counterbalancer and aluminum cylinders . He said the money spent developing the first 650 CC and then later the Bonneville used up most of Triumph's development budget , so any other projects got put on hold . Too late was the Bandit/Fury design , and way underfunded , not what Turner envisioned back in 1955 . Bearing in mind that America represented about 40% of Triumph's total market share , and only 10% of MG's , maybe the mothership is attempting to learn from history , refine what you have , and don't listen to those silly Yanks and their insatiable need for HP and the latest tech 
 
 Dusty

[Kev m]

Bearing in mind that America represented about 40% of Triumph's total market share , and only 10% of MG's , maybe the mothership is attempting to learn from history , refine what you have , and don't listen to those silly Yanks and their insatiable need for HP and the latest tech 

IF that was true I don't think the MGX01 or whatever the heck it is called would even exist, and I have some doubt about the Cali 1400 Custom and Audace too. Not to mention the V9 Bobber...

[oldbike54]

IF that was true I don't think the MGX01 or whatever the heck it is called would even exist, and I have some doubt about the Cali 1400 Custom and Audace too. Not to mention the V9 Bobber...

 Referring more to the call for more sporting models like the MGS 01 , that buyers would , to quote Pete , "stay away from in droves"  Aren't all of those models based on existing platforms ?

 Dusty

[rocker59]

MGX-21 = Cal 14 Bagger.

MGS-01 = Spine Frame sporty bike

[rboe]

Once everyone that wants a certain bike the market is saturated. Seems to have happened with the CB1100, and they even did a little refreshing from 2013 to 2014, adding a 6th gear and ABS.

MG has a limited market share, so the folks that want a Norge have one. Only way to the rest sold is to discount them; attracting the cheap old penny pinchers - not the sort of customer you really want to cultivate.

If the Norge (and Stelvio and Griso) are refreshed every few years, and with real improvements, there is a good chance you'll increase your market share and sell some new units to current owners that may want to keep a bike that has a warranty (the most common excuse I hear for a new car or bike is to have one under warranty - this may or may not apply to you). If you are a current owner, with a well sorted Guzzi, if the new Guzzi being offered is just a different color than the one you have (and will still need to be sorted) you really don't have much motivation to get it.

In the mean time, all the cheap penny pinchers are snapping their suspenders saying the old bike is just fine. 

[canuguzzi]

How many riders have you come by that even know a Norge existed? People don't buy what they don't know about but if they find out, they compare features beyond character and feel because just how can they experience it if finding one is difficult?

Telling someone to fly somewhere just to try one out isn't realistic. That is one reason they come with $6000 discounts.

[JeffOlson]

A couple of thoughts:

First, I imagine most Western buyers of motorcycles use the Internet to research their options. That is exactly how I found out about Moto Guzzi and the Norge. I then read everything I could find online. Once I had decided on the Norge, I bought one without even a test ride. I felt I knew what to expect; the reality turned out to be better than expected. When it came time to replace the Norge, I bought another one, from a greater distance, sight unseen and without a test ride. Am I the only modern, educated buyer who who is prepared to buy a motorcycle without a test ride? I doubt it. (I also bought my Vespa GTS 300 without a test ride, and I have no regrets.)

Second, the market for adventure bikes is hotter than it is for sport touring motorcycles. I don't know, but I suspect the market for naked roadsters is also stronger than it is for sport touring bikes. Hence the larger discounts on the Norge than on the Stelvio or Griso.

[Gliderjohn]

In my observations (Now don't you all start getting big heads) most Guzzi riders are more educated, either formally or informally than many other "groups" and an intellegent bunch overall. Due to that the average Guzzi owner is more likely to have researched what he/she rides.
GliderJohn

[canuguzzi]

That experience isn't shared by more than a very small percentage of people buying motorcycles. There are hundreds if thousands of motorcycles sold in the USA each year and most aren't buying them sight unseen or traveling distances to get them.

You can't easily sell what you don't have to offer.

Take the typical ST buyer. They might find out about the Norge and then they look for one. Not available. But right over there is a shiny new FJR, a ST1300, a BMW or a Kawasaki Concourse not to mention the numerous other bikes that can do the duty. They aren't traveling to buy a Norge sight unseen except in rare ocassions and the proof is staring us in the face.

If 2000 buyers wanted a Norge there wouldn't be discounts as there are and MG would be making them to sell.

Even among those who know about Moto Guzzi and decide they want one, how many travel to buy one because they want to? They travel because they have to.

Would you buy a motorcycle sight unseen and no test ride if the bike was sitting in a showroom in the same city? I think not or we're all telling each other lies when we recommend others not do just that.

You bought a Norge despite little dealership availability, no significant updates in over 4 years not because of it, right?

Sorry, IMO if MG updated the Norge, Stelvio and Griso they'd sell more if them. Its a competitive market for motorcycles, either compete or get left behind. If being left behind is the idea, nothing wrong with that but then that is what it is.

[canuguzzi]

In my observations (Now don't you all start getting big heads) most Guzzi riders are more educated, either formally or informally than many other "groups" and an intellegent bunch overall. Due to that the average Guzzi owner is more likely to have researched what he/she rides.
GliderJohn

Haha, as in gods .0000000005%?

(No religious overtones intended)

[kingoffleece]

This is an interesting conversation.  A bit more to think about:
Riding my Triumph bikes I ran into dozens of riders (mostly Harley which may explain it) that had no idea Triumph still made bikes. This amazed me.

Among other groups I run with from time to time most of them had never seen a Guzzi until I rode mine.

Most other S/T riders think I bought a Norge that is ten years behind the times for technology, and while they like the bike would never buy one.  I sometimes hear: "where's the cruise control, the radio, the riding modes, the active suspension" and what not.  Mine, these comments are not from my "real rider" friends who cover thousands of miles-but more from the casual M/C owner.

When I used to work local and regional events for our local Triumph dealer I hear almost all day "dang, they still make those things?"

I know, sounds strange to motorcycle lovers like ourselves, but it happened a LOT!

[LowRyter]

Who says you need to buy a bike every few years?  Some people like the bike they bought and are happy to ride it for 5-10 years or much longer, same with cars...why the overwhelming need to buy a new one every few years?

my '98 EV has 60k miles
my '98 Bandit has 80k miles
my '01 Sport has 34k miles
my '94 Z/28 has 165k miles
my '99 Trooper has 90k miles
my '04 Duramax has 60k miles
my '14 Accord has 16k miles (it replaced an '04 Accord my son has with 120k miles)

My Camaro is still a barrel of monkeys.  I took it out and redlined in 2nd gear all day long.  It's too cold to be redlining my bikes.  I looked at several two seater "retirement cars" but none seemed anymore fun that my Z/28 6 speed.

[PJPR01]

my '98 EV has 60k miles
my '98 Bandit has 80k miles
my '01 Sport has 34k miles
my '94 Z/28 has 165k miles
my '99 Trooper has 90k miles
my '04 Duramax has 60k miles
my '14 Accord has 16k miles (it replaced an '04 Accord my son has with 120k miles)

My Camaro is still a barrel of monkeys.  I took it out and redlined in 2nd gear all day long.  It's too cold to be redlining my bikes.  I looked at several two seater "retirement cars" but none seemed anymore fun that my Z/28 6 speed.

   Exactly...QED!  None of those would have that kind of mileage if it weren't enjoyable to do so...  :)

[bad Chad]

This thread should extend ghe life of armchair QBs for decades!

Im not at all sure Piaggio gives two shits what us board users think.   My guess, if they may figure that half of us will buy a new guzzi based on brand loyalty; so it wo t really matter what they offer to our demographic. The other half of us will NEVER buy a new guzzi.

So they have half of our tiny community in the bag, only makes sence to go in new drections to pull in new converts.

[oldbike54]

   Exactly...QED!  None of those would have that kind of mileage if it weren't enjoyable to do so...  :)

 Ahh , the Babel fish axiom 

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

Who among us that own a Norge wouldn't be in line for a 2016 model that retained what is great about it but carried in addition some of the things like adjustable pegs, adjustable bars, adjustable seat, updated gauges and some refinements like traction control and a better suspension or are we caught up in just being OK with what there is now?

Maybe a temp controlled oil cooler bypass, like keyed luggage all the way around including the top box, a facade tank cover hiding the plastic thank that could grow or shrink without affecting much of anything, more heat range on the grips, cruise control and the like.

We wouldn't line up for the most part because of a needs test that says nonone needs to buy a new bike within a few years of buying the last time? Really?

More important though, I bet we'd see a lot more people willing to buy in too and that is far better for the brand and brand owners than the notion of exclusivity. Would perhaps a few thousand more riders owning a Norge diminish us because they have one too? That's kinda vain isn't it?

I bet when the Norge came out there were plenty of Guzzi owners who mocked the plastic Norge and don't look now, some still do. Wasn't the Norge, Stelvio and Griso a refinement and update of Guzzi and the platforms for the then new 1200 engine and the the 8V?

Now that has to stop because we got ours? Yuck. We'll be the next group stuck in yesteryear.

Just because there is ABS, cruise, traction and all those other things doesn't mean we have to use them but they will attract new riders to Guzzi or do we think the Roamer and MGX-21 are going to carry that banner forward with more than modest alacrity?

What is so wrong about selling those who just want to buy a new bike an updated version of what they have? If BMW and the rest let their flagship models stagnate (and the Norge IS a flagship bike) for more than a couple years people would stop buying them.

Take the ST1300 or FJR. A model 6 years old looks lime one made last year but along the way they got enough refinements that quite a few people buying them are repeat customers. In March when the new FJR hits dealers there will be plenty of previous year owners ready to buy.  Yet the upcoming FJR maintains the good of previous models, enough so that like BMW and Honda owners, the lineage is evident.

MG isn't any of those other brands but when the difference between a 2012 Norge and a 2016 Norge is the couple of grand the 2012 owner put out for rollers, that is a bit of stagnation. When dealers are selling 2014s for less than 2012 bikes, something isn't working business wise. Will the 2017 Norge sell for less than the 2012 Norge because there is no reason for that 2012 owner to step up and no real reason for anyone else to either?

The old Z28s, SD455 TransAms and Challengers were at the top and if you're lucky enough to have one have got it kicked. But you wouldn't like a new Camaro or Challenger? Take a look at who manynof those buyers are, lots of silver haired youngsters with enough money to pony up.

[Rough Edge racing]

The Triumph Bonneville (Turner version) was built in response to the demand from America for more power . At its introduction , Turner stated that "this will be the bike that ruins us". It took a few years, but he was probably right . Somewhere in an interview he claimed he really wanted to develop a 500 CC engine with some basic refinements like a counterbalancer and aluminum cylinders . He said the money spent developing the first 650 CC and then later the Bonneville used up most of Triumph's development budget , so any other projects got put on hold . Too late was the Bandit/Fury design , and way underfunded , not what Turner envisioned back in 1955 . Bearing in mind that America represented about 40% of Triumph's total market share , and only 10% of MG's , maybe the mothership is attempting to learn from history , refine what you have , and don't listen to those silly Yanks and their insatiable need for HP and the latest tech 
 
 Dusty

   It's interesting to note that the Bonneville dual carb and the same era single carb TR6 have the exact same internal parts and depending on the year only vary in camshaft timing and the mentioned head. Development of the Delta dual carb head was nothing special . Before the Bonneville was introduced in 1959, Triumph had offered the dual carb head as an retro fit kit for a year.Turner and Triumph always had excuses not to redesign the several glaring flaws of of 1938 500 cc engine ....it was more convenient to blame the speed crazy Americans for the problems. The truth was Turner objected to the 500 cc engine being enlarged to 650 in 1950 because the design was barely adequate for 500 cc's and he knew his sweet running 27 HP 500 would become a temperamental 45 HP 650
 

[charlie b]

The 'other' crowd I hang out with (ST types) almost all know about the Norge and like the low weight and decent power.  BUT...about 90% stay away mainly cause of the dealer network.  They would rather get an FJR or Connie with good dealer networks and known bugs.  Many of those wish Honda would update thee ST, but, that looks like it won't happen either.  If Honda won't make one then why should Guzzi update the Norge?  Piaggio has bikes they can't sell near retail price now.  And those in the market for an ST type probably won't buy it anyway cause dealers are so few.

[George_S]

How many riders have you come by that even know a Norge existed? People don't buy what they don't know about but if they find out, they compare features beyond character and feel because just how can they experience it if finding one is difficult?

Telling someone to fly somewhere just to try one out isn't realistic. That is one reason they come with $6000 discounts.

I agree and have to say that I never heard of the Norge until I bought my Cali 1400 and came to this forum.
I've owned quite a few BMW R 1150/1200s and knew about a couple other choices (Yamaha, etc) but never heard of a Norge.

[JeffOlson]

Even if one were to pay MSRP for the Norge (but who does that?), the base price would be $16,290. The base price for a BMW R1200RT is $18,145 (but good luck finding a base model anywhere). The real world difference between the two is many thousands of dollars. Granted, the BMW will likely come "standard" with $3,200 worth of options, so it would not be an apples-to-apples comparison, but there it is: low teens for a Norge or low twenties for a BMW. Frankly, you could probably buy a Norge and a V7 II Stone for the price of one BMW R1200RT...

[Demar]

If the Norge (and Stelvio and Griso) are refreshed every few years, and with real improvements, there is a good chance you'll increase your market share and sell some new units to current owners that may want to keep a bike that has a warranty (the most common excuse I hear for a new car or bike is to have one under warranty - this may or may not apply to you). If you are a current owner, with a well sorted Guzzi, if the new Guzzi being offered is just a different color than the one you have (and will still need to be sorted) you really don't have much motivation to get it.

This is why I think a 900 NTX about 1"-1.5" shorter and 150lbs lighter than the current NTX should be developed. I have a 2012 NTX and if a model as I described was available I'd buy it. I wouldn't immediately sell the 2012, but, even if I did a new purchase is what MG is after.... new bikes sold. A smaller NTX would lure in buyers who think the current NTX is just too big and expand the MG market.

[kirb]

Guzzi refined the Stelvio with the NTX (4 years?) and hit one out of the park as much as MG can. All of the niggles were fixed- tank size, cam profile, wide rear rim, etc...

The Norge has been fairly unchanged over it's life span. Would a new Norge sell? ST market isn't blazing hot and there are a LOT of other quality offerings. The FJR, RT, Connie, and a host of others that are not lighting the world on fire for those MFGs... Norge don't sell from a dealer's perspective. Stock one and give it away 9 months later. Our dealer requires that you order one if you want one. No one buys them, and the cheap skates that do wait until they are deeply discounted. Yes exceptions exist. Would any Norge owners want to take the $$ hit to get a new Norge with some upgrades, modes, or whatever? Those buyers knowing the price of the new bike just was cut by a 1/3 that day?

Any motorcycle test either doesn't test a Norge because it's and old design, isn't given one to test, or knows it will come near the bottom of every category. The people who want Norges have them.

I don't see me stepping up to another Stelvio if they added a few other features. I already replaced a '12 with a '13 due to a deer strike. I'll be good for awhile.

[JeffOlson]

Any motorcycle test either doesn't test a Norge because it's and old design, isn't given one to test, or knows it will come near the bottom of every category.

Not true: http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2014/10/2015-my-mich-police-motorcycle-test-results-released.aspx

The Norge came out #2 in top speed, 0-60, 0-100, braking, and lap times. Hardly near the bottom.

[canuguzzi]

I don't accept that Moto Guzzi can't compete on par in the ST market. I think Moto Guzzi has the talent and the resources to take the Norge and update it to run with the other ST bikes in overall competence and desirability.

Where is it written that because its Moto Guzzi that somehow it has to be some background player?

All it takes is effort. Effort to support dealers and effort to support customers. So far MG has fallen down on those accounts.

Yamaha, Honda, BMW and Kawasaki aren't making ST bikes because that market is withering away. Where dies that notion come from anyway, does someone have any hard cold facts or is that some regurgitated something easy to say?

Yamaha updated the FJR because that market is going away? BMW did the same thing for the same reason? Poppycock.

Just because ADV bikes are selling well doesn't mean the ST market is going away, it just means a different bike style, the ADV is developing. No one expects the ST market to be selling like ADVs but that seems to be the reason why some say the ST market is going away.

Right, everyone else spent millions on R&D to update their STs because the market is disappearing. Uh huh.

The company that had produced motorcycles that are among the most beautiful and functional in motorcycling history can't compete in the ST market with more than a footnote? I don't buy that. They can and could, the question is do they want to?

I submit that making the exact same bike from 2012-2016 is not the way to attract customers unless its done just to say you have a ST bike in the lineup.

The other manufacturers have proven as fact that people do want updates beyond ABS. MG has proven as fact that very few people want a Norge as it is being made. I think more than a few people, seeing the at the time new 8V going into the Norge hoped progress would continue.

Some.might not buy an new Norge because of updates. Sorry, they are in the minority and sales figures prove that too.

[kirb]

The Norge came out #2 in top speed, 0-60, 0-100, braking, and lap times. Hardly near the bottom.

That was a Michigan State Police test...not exactly the same thing. I would hope it did well against the land barge brigade. The MSP tests only have BMW or Guzzi 'ST' bikes...they may have had a connie once. I have not seen a road test by a on-line or print mag putting it up against rivals in as long as I can remember.

[kirb]

The company that had produced motorcycles that are among the most beautiful and functional in motorcycling history can't compete in the ST market with more than a footnote? I don't buy that. They can and could, the question is do they want to?

Actually, you did buy it... Guzzi will always be a small player. I am amazed that they are still making bikes. They wouldn't be without the amazing ability of Italian pride to keep things afloat.

I like my Stelvio. Many people who open their mind up to it love the concept. The marque is too small for the average person to 'risk' going in on one for the same investment of a known hammer-reliable offering of another brand.

What do you think could move MG from ST obscurity to mainstream by product alone? Even if you put all the electronics on it, cruise, new body style, 50 more HP...then put it in the tester's hands and have it thrashed and reviewed. Let's say it gets glowing reviews (think Motus reviews...with electronics)...how do you think that will impact sales? Be realistic. It may get the notice of a real world competitor, but the small marque will always be 'quirky' and odd.

Look at the people who ride Guzzi...they are drawn to the quirky and odd. It's not a bad thing other than there should be more of us.

[Gliderjohn]

IMHO the styling of the Norge is still cutting edge and done only as the Italians can. With the rollers in it one has one of the sweetest running engines out there, especially for real world applications.
That said the Norge is getting "long in the tooth". To be viable it needs the electronics brought up to current standards, active suspension (at least as an option), improved windscreen with more friendly adjustment button placement, one key luggage as it should be, someway to git about an inch more clearance to the center stand without increasing overall bike height, heated seat (again, at least as an option) and some dealers.
GliderJohn

[JeffOlson]

I have not seen a road test by a on-line or print mag putting it up against rivals in as long as I can remember.

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2014-sport-touring-final-smackdown-video

"The funny thing about the Norge is, in spite of all its shortcomings on the spec and dyno charts, it never seemed to have any trouble keeping up with the group... The Guzzi packs a lot of oomph into each chug, and if you're behind it wringing the FJR's 127-hp neck up a winding road, it's hard to understand why you're not gaining any ground...

"And its dual Brembo-clamped discs up front give up absolutely nothing to the other bikes, including ABS.

"Guzzi can play the modern game; witness the excellent California 1400. The Norge is unabashedly retro and good at it; if you only listen to vinyl through a tube amplifier while clamping a meerschaum pipe in your hipster-bearded mouth, it's your sporty tourer. Especially if you want to do your own maintenance."

I do prefer vinyl records and tube amplifiers, I do smoke a pipe, and I do have a beard, so I guess the Norge is my bike!

[canuguzzi]

Agree with the above

Now, the FJR just got a nice update, new tranny, better features in almost every area.

Here is the thing, do we see the Norge remaining in the lineup with the sales it gets? I don't. I see 2016 as the last year, maybe 2017 unless it gets an update.

MG doesn't have to change the Norge's character and frankly, I don't see how updating the things suggested does any of that. Does the addition of active suspension and other features change the Norge into something it isn't now?

Would those things attract more buyers and maybe break the cycle of it being the step child in STing? Probably.

MG will only keep the Norge around so long if it doesn't sell better. I give it 2 more years at most and then it will be available via special order only, it at all.

[bad Chad]

I don't know NP, they have kept it around for 10 years, and by the standards you're using, has it ever sold well?