Why can't MG get their act together?

[Jurgen]

If BMW can get their overhead cam engines doing 14KRPM, why can't MG do the same at 7KRPM without failure of the followers?  Jürgen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsa6kq-qqIE

[Dean Rose]

If BMW can get their overhead cam engines doing 14KRPM, why can't MG do the same at 7KRPM without failure of the followers?  J�rgen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsa6kq-qqIE

Beats me, why not ask them. Probably get the same answer I get when I ask Cindy to bake me an Apple pie.


Dean

[JeffOlson]

Some people (myself included) prefer lower-revving engines. In any event, who says the "followers" are failing?

[Triple Jim]

I like the videos that use a strobe to examine the valve train at high speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVwzXeAtEHg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY

[canuguzzi]

What would the extra 6000 rpms provide? If its more HP then maybe any efforts would be better applied to reducing the weight to HP ratio instead of chasing HP only. Both avenues can get expensive but it might be easier to source different materials than redesigning engines to spin faster.

Take the typical riding speeds and remember, the type of rider has as much to do with the engines they like as the speeds they ride. Take the fast spinning engined bikes. At most speeds other than short bursts those engines aren't running that much faster than the typical Guzzi engine.

Ride down a favorite road that is as fast or slow road or anything in between. How comfortable it is with the engine sitting near 10,000 vs 4500 rpms? 

Take a nice twisty road for example. While you can peg the tach at nearly double what a Guzzi engine would pull, what does it get you? Diminishing returns.

When you get near a track, things change because you get to speeds where pure acceleration rules or top end speeds go above what something like a stock Griso can reach but how often does that happen?

Take the Norge. 8k gets you to a velocity where you don't want to be for a long time, 12k would be a speed very few people would every try unless the gearing were to change radically or maybe something like an 8 speed tranny so you could explore those ranges.

If the current engine pushes near 80 around 5k for example, what does 8k at that speed get you? Maybe more HP but that is like running in 4th on the freeway just because higher rpms look good on the tach.

MG does need to get parts of its act together but high rpm engines isn't one of them. I could be wrong.

[oldbike54]

 It isn't the boxer engines turning 14K RPM'S , that is limited to the S1000 engine , a full on supersport engine . Hell , the 1299 Panigale only revs to 11K, and it is an ultra short stroke V twin .

 Dusty
 

[SemperVee]

 It really won't matter soon if they keep losing DEALERS....  The dealer in Spokane is no more. Ugh.
 

[Vasco DG]

It also seems BMW are incapable of learning from the mistakes of others.

Courtesy of Ralf.

[rboe]

whoops!

[canuguzzi]

It also seems BMW are incapable of learning from the mistakes of others.

Courtesy of Ralf.

Read the text in the first photo, they learned plenty. Its not the failure that people remember.

Seems like a darned good response. As they say, sh-t happens, do they offer you a roll or leave you sitting in the pile?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I don't remember seeing one that bad.. 

[beetle]

1.The 8V is not an overhead cam engine.
2. The tappets would likely fail even if never revved beyond 5K


Nothing to see here. Move along.

[drlapo]

Triumph's new twins focus on torque not high rpm HP
the street twin is actually down on hp compared to the air cooled bike
Yamaha's triple and700 twin have their torque peaks sooner than the4s
Look at the popularity of HD and Indian all torque
I think MG has it right

[JeffOlson]

^ Yep. Torque is what I want, at low RPMs, for ease of riding. I am not a racer or a wanna be racer (and I don't wear a one-piece leather suit on a motorcycle or spandex on a bicycle  ).

[Doppelgaenger]

Why bother with a huge redline, that just puts all your power up top where you'll never get to use it on the road. This is the reason I dislike all the supersport 600s and 1000s. So what if they can do 180, you can't do 180 on the streets, nor on a track for that matter. And those bikes aren't fun unless you're breaking the law

One of the main reasons I like big engine bikes with a low redline is that they make all their torque down low where you can use it in every day riding. You can be thrilled without breaking the speed limit.

Yes they could do it, but it would drastically change the feel of the engine which is the whole point of a guzzi

[drlapo]

but somehow Triumph gives us both torque and HP with the triples
the speed triple that I owned had the best motorcycle engine ever; power everywhere
now my 800 Tiger provides all I need
all I need, not all I want; I really am enjoying my V7

[Jurgen]

What would the extra 6000 rpms provide? If its more HP then maybe any efforts would be better applied to reducing the weight to HP ratio instead of chasing HP only. Both avenues can get expensive but it might be easier to source different materials than redesigning engines to spin faster.

Take the typical riding speeds and remember, the type of rider has as much to do with the engines they like as the speeds they ride. Take the fast spinning engined bikes. At most speeds other than short bursts those engines aren't running that much faster than the typical Guzzi engine.

Ride down a favorite road that is as fast or slow road or anything in between. How comfortable it is with the engine sitting near 10,000 vs 4500 rpms? 

Take a nice twisty road for example. While you can peg the tach at nearly double what a Guzzi engine would pull, what does it get you? Diminishing returns.

When you get near a track, things change because you get to speeds where pure acceleration rules or top end speeds go above what something like a stock Griso can reach but how often does that happen?

Take the Norge. 8k gets you to a velocity where you don't want to be for a long time, 12k would be a speed very few people would every try unless the gearing were to change radically or maybe something like an 8 speed tranny so you could explore those ranges.

If the current engine pushes near 80 around 5k for example, what does 8k at that speed get you? Maybe more HP but that is like running in 4th on the freeway just because higher rpms look good on the tach.

MG does need to get parts of its act together but high rpm engines isn't one of them. I could be wrong.

My comment was not to say that MG should develop a 14KRPM engine, only that if a 4 valve OHC engine can be developed to get to 14K reliably, then MG should also be able to develop such a valve train without problems, especially at the lower RPM's. 

[rocker59]

Yes.  Especially with Piaggio's deep pockets  and engineering capabilities...

[JeffOlson]

My comment was not to say that MG should develop a 14KRPM engine, only that if a 4 valve OHC engine can be developed to get to 14K reliably, then MG should also be able to develop such a valve train without problems, especially at the lower RPM's.

Moto Guzzi HAS developed a valve train without problems--several of them, in fact. If you are talking specifically about the 1151 CC motor in its current form, with roller tappets, what problems does it have?

[ohiorider]

Read the text in the first photo, they learned plenty. Its not the failure that people remember.

They have their failures, for sure.  But more often lately, I see them resolving them with practical, some might say generous, solutions.  Thinking specifically about the failure of the rear shock on the K1600.  They made a variety of offers to affected customers in an effort to make things right, including supplying a loaner while awaiting parts, offering a substantial $ amount for accessories if the customer didn't choose the loaner, or going as far as to buying back the bike.

[LowRyter]

If BMW can get their overhead cam engines doing 14KRPM, why can't MG do the same at 7KRPM without failure of the followers?  J�rgen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsa6kq-qqIE

That's not a Beemer Twin Boxer.  That's a DOHC 4 cyl. 

Apples compared to catfish.

The Beemer twins rev to about 8k IIRC.  About the same as a 1200 Guzzi 8V.  Now the water cooled Beemer has a quite a bit more kick than a Griso. 

[lucky phil]

Why bother with a huge redline, that just puts all your power up top where you'll never get to use it on the road. This is the reason I dislike all the supersport 600s and 1000s. So what if they can do 180, you can't do 180 on the streets, nor on a track for that matter. And those bikes aren't fun unless you're breaking the law

One of the main reasons I like big engine bikes with a low redline is that they make all their torque down low where you can use it in every day riding. You can be thrilled without breaking the speed limit.

Yes they could do it, but it would drastically change the feel of the engine which is the whole point of a guzzi

You clearly have no experience riding a modern 4 cylinder sports motorcycle. Will your Guzzi pull away in top gear from 60kph without complaint (albeit in moderate fashion) no way,it wont even tolerate 6th gear at those speeds. but that's what a modern Japanese 600 will do. A modern 4 cylinder bike is far easier to ride around at town speeds than a modern twin because its got a more flexible delivery.
So my V11 has a usable rpm range of about 5000rpm (2500rpm to 7500rpm) give of take. My GSXR1000 is about 7000rpm from 6000 to 13000 and it will happily pull way lower than 6 around town without complaint it will just be slower.
Sure you want it to get up and go you will need to rev it, but don't mistake torque figures and the RPM they are generated at with a flexible delivery. I'm a twin man through and through although I also own a GSXR1000 for the track the Suzuki is far easier to ride around town engine wise that the V11.
As for not being able to do 180 on the track, well I've seen 280kph on the clock of the GSXR at the end of Phillip Island straight at a track day which is not that  far off and I'm pretty slow. 
Ciao 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Jurgen, Martin explained it succinctly (or not)    in another thread.

First a little background on the area, this part of Northern Italy has been inhabited for 10's of thousands of years, many of the local people can lay legitimate claim to being truly native, an ancient and noble people , one of the first cultures in the world to use the written word. They were and still are not happy to be ruled by Rome, under the facade of a Roman Catholic society lies some deep rooted beliefs and superstitions.

Carlo Guzzi and Alberto Camero were both of such history and one of the pacts they made as tribal cousins was that certain pieces of Carlo's creations would be designed and manufactured by Camero, including but not limited to all valve train components, breather systems and final drives. Camero's genius in this field led to his company growing to be the only camshaft producing industry in Italy, designing and supplying all motorcycle, car and truck manufacturers, winning a number of world championships no-one can best, not even Michelin. But that was in the future.

Jump to December 1921, the war was nearly forgotten, Alberto was working feverishly for Guzzi, he'd completed and test run his DOHC 4 valve per cyl 70deg twin, this was going to blow the world into the weeds.
T'was the night before Xmas, Alberto returned home from the factory late as usual , only to see shadows in the firelight. His jaw dropped as he peered through his own window. His beautiful new young wife covorting naked not with one but with two of the Guzzi clan.
He took his own life that night but not before returning to his factory to destroy all evidence of the DOHC rocketship, the plans and tooling all gone. Finally he painted in the ancient script in blood on the factory wall
"A curse on Guzzi and all that will work there, never can they build a mutlivalve engine that will work"

Of course, such things were taken a bit more seriously then and Guzzi , by way of honour, used only 2vpc. Camero's design for their pushrod  driven OHV 500 single lasting 50 odd years, race winning and bulletproof. The 67 V twin used essentially the same design and proved itself, although mysterious batches of flawed cam followers showed up periodically. These were not sourced elsewhere as is often thought but were a direct action against De Tomasso's engineers who made but never actually sold a pushrod/forked rocker set up for 4vpc in big block engine. The ju-ju worked

The 80's and 90's saw the ju-ju spill. The Lario and it's brother the V75 incurred Alberto's wrath, the models sent to an early grave, taking Guzzi reputation down a peg or two

Why they didn't listen to the townsfolk of Mandello, we'll never know but the Daytona/Centauro followed the Lario, both to the workshop and the early grave.

Quietly reverting to the 2vpc engines that they were allowed by Alberto to build, nearly 20 years of calm and total reliability ensued. The memory of the 4vpc attempts enough to convince anyone that Alberto's curse was and is real.

Enter Piaggio, their engineers, as devout Catholics, dismissed the fairy story, built a new 8V V twin around the old cases and sold it

Ju -ju spilling everywhere, these things defied belief, cams and followers turning to dust all over the world. A little ju-ju fell on the new CARC system, various other stuff too

The engineers scratched their nuts and looked for answers, unbelievably trying to test Alberto by going outside Italy for camshafts and followers. They found a supplier in China (These people had similar ancient history and could put Alberto's curse to rest, so they said) to confuse the punter the new cam follower would be of the "roller' type, neatly explaining how all made before it were of faulty design not product, and most definitely not because of ju-ju.

This is when Alberto's curse goes right off
In designated areas, certain market and weather conditions perhaps, he let loose the ju-ju big time
Just some (so far) of the original bikes that have had the Chinese cams and followers fitted, he let the ju-ju run right through the engine, attacking big end shells and crankshafts, sending complete engines to the eternal scrapheap.


More as it happens

[Cool Runnings]

Torque wins races

HP sells vehicles

[oldbike54]

Torque wins races

HP sells vehicles

 Not really true . Even big old Nascar engines rev to 9500 RPMs these days , RPMs wins races if all of the engines in a class are the same size . The NHRA had to give the twin cylinder Pro Stock bikes a huge displacement advantage so they could be competitive , and the FIM has always given twins some advantage .

  Dusty

[Cool Runnings]

“Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races.” 

https://twitter.com/LenosGarage/status/672250819216056320

[oldbike54]

�Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races.� 

https://twitter.com/LenosGarage/status/672250819216056320

 That doesn't make any sense . Sometimes we are like an old episode of Green Acres 

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

Not really true . Even big old Nascar engines rev to 9500 RPMs these days , RPMs wins races if all of the engines in a class are the same size . The NHRA had to give the twin cylinder Pro Stock bikes a huge displacement advantage so they could be competitive , and the FIM has always given twins some advantage .

  Dusty

 

HP rules the race track. 5000 rpm engines don't win much of anything. If torque won races there would be a huge following in diesel formula one. Run the engine in its optimum power band and the higher you can get that the faster the car is.

Last time torque was the hot ticket in race cars was ...
Anyone see a Ferrari with a 5000 rpm redline lately?

[oldbike54]

HP rules the race track. 5000 rpm engines don't win much of anything. If torque won races there would be a huge following in diesel formula one. Run the engine in its optimum power band and the higher you can get that the faster the car is.

Last time torque was the hot ticket in race cars was ...
Anyone see a Ferrari with a 5000 rpm redline lately?

 Well , and now I am going to contradict myself just a bit . Audi has had great success with Diesel powered sports racing cars over the last several years , but those things are freaky , revving to 5000 RPMs , so even with Diesels high engine speed wins races 

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

Well , and now I am going to contradict myself just a bit . Audi has had great success with Diesel powered sports racing cars over the last several years , but those things are freaky , revving to 5000 RPMs , so even with Diesels high engine speed wins races 

  Dusty

Yes and for sure Audi isn't spinning those engine faster for more torque but more HP.