Le Mans Ergo's

[RANDM]

Hi people,
I'm getting close to being ready to make the move to Guzzi, most likely a Litre Tonti.
Guzzi's seem to hold their value well in Aust. and as I haven't got buckets of cash I
was thinking of getting a Cali which are more reasonably priced over here and making
a Sports/Tourer out of it.

After mentioning my interest to a helpful acquaintance he got the light bulb going off look
and said he knew someone in Syd and would ask what was around and has come back with
news of 2 x 80's Le Mans, both in good nick that are in my price range.
 
I think the 80's Le Mans look great - the only issue I may have with one is the Clip Ons.
My Son has an '05 Triumph Thruxton which is a very "happy" bike to ride but the old school
stretched out cafe riding position puts too much weight on my 62yo wrists and I'm only good
for about 20 mins before the hands start going numb - reckon I'd be OK with Straight Bars
though so i was wondering just how far a Le Mans stretches you out?

Not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of messing with a 'Classic' but could Straight Bars be fitted
and would they work with the fairing? Is it an unforgivable Sin to think of doing that to a LeMans?

Thanks for any advice,
Maurie.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  The MFF riding position is not for us old geezers.
  For one thing, we can't tilt our heads back far enough to see down the road.

[huub]

a le mans is a sports bike, i doubt  comfort was high on the priority list when they designed it.
the seating position works on fast cruising, i did 800 km days without much trouble.
on small slow roads and around town a le mans is pretty horrible.
also depends on your length , for anybody taller than 1,75 meter the seating arrangement is a bit cramped.

you might improve the situation with a set of adjustable swan neck clipons
but best do a test ride and decide for yourself if you can live with a lemans

[Murray]

A litre tonti means MkIV or MkV up until then they were 850's. There is a fair bit of variation in the lemans series the latter ones are more sports touring the early 850's were very much sports bikes. How much you are stretched out really depends on how tall you are etc.

[Tobit]

I'm 6'1" with a 32" inseam.  The LeMans IV is a fine sporting tourer and very comfortable.  Add a tankbag, soft saddlebags and you're set to go.  The lean to the bars is not excessive and the peg height isn't bad on the knees generally speaking.  I had a cut-down saddle on mine and after 500 miles or so the knees felt a little cramped.  A taller Corbin saddle fixed that.



Tobit

[blackcat]

I did a 1500 mile trip on my CX or Lemans II to you over the summer with 61 year old wrists that are not in great shape either. Throttle lock has helped but you could install bars instead of clip-ons depending on the bike or maybe get adjustable V7 Sport bars to raise it up.

[rocker59]

I think the 80's Le Mans look great - the only issue I may have with one is the Clip Ons.
My Son has an '05 Triumph Thruxton which is a very "happy" bike to ride but the old school
stretched out cafe riding position puts too much weight on my 62yo wrists and I'm only good
for about 20 mins before the hands start going numb - reckon I'd be OK with Straight Bars
though so i was wondering just how far a Le Mans stretches you out?
 

I found the reach to the bars on my LM1000 to be fairly close, as compared to my spine frame bikes.

They aren't real low, either.  Probably on line with the later Thruxtons with flat bars.

Seat to peg distance is pretty short on any of the Tonti LeManses, so that's something you should consider, too.

If your arms aren't shorter than average, I don't see the seating as being sport bike extreme.

Of course, my cruiser-riding friends would disagree.

If you have any issues with a forward lean, and a little weight on the bars, then any of the sporting Guzzis probably won't be comfortable for you.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If you have any issues with a forward lean, and a little weight on the bars,

go to the gym and build up your core and thigh strength.
FTFY 

[RANDM]

Thanks for the tips guys, appreciate it, test rides on classic
Guzzi's aren't thick on the ground in semi rural Victoria.

Should have mentioned my height - 5' 10". I have a bit of
wear and tear on the back, core strength is down a little
but I keep it moving - recently finished a 16 meter retaining
wall and fence so it doesn't stop me, just slows me down a
bit. The related numb hands only shows up with the full
stretch Cafe so far, for instance I've ridden my daughter's
800 Monster for 4 hrs at a time with no probs (except  the
seat) so a bit of a lean is OK just not full on laid out. No hip
or knee issues to worry about.

It's a pity both these bikes are 800+ klms away, I only know
of one Dealer in the whole Melb area - Ringwood, about 60
klms away so finding one to check out ergo's will be up to the
Road Gods and serendipity as to what's there when I call by.

Sounds like the IV & V are worth considering with minor changes.
My mind had started to settle into making a Cali into exactly
what I want. I'd only spotted one LM that didn't make my wallet
blush in the last 5 months and very little else other than the
ubiquitous Cali's and more modern Spinies and > which led me to
the redone Cali idea.

Is that a standard fairing/bars on yours Blackcat?

Guess it's gonna come down to choice between a
Classic adjusted to suit or something I can make
my own individual take on things. Both are tempting.

An errant thought - the oil pressure sensor that seems
to be an irritation on Spinies & >; does the same apply
to earlier models and if so couldn't you replace the so so
sensor with an Oil Pressure Gauge and have done with it?

Thanks again for the advice so far,
Cheers Maurie.

[double.d]

Get yourself a set of Tarozzi's. These are 70mm and 30mm are also available. It don't matter what they look like when they give many hours of painless blood circulating riding.

[malik]

If you want to test the fit, and check out how others manage, I'd get in touch with the MGCoV &/or CIMAA - a good bunch enthusiastic about their old iron - the monthly weekday meets might be a stretch from Mornington, but I believe CIMAA have Saturday meets, which might be more make able. Give them a ring & tee up something, there's a wealth of talent & experience just up the road from you.

[RANDM]

Those Tarozzis look the go - adjustable everything, ta.
I do have an one aquaintance who is a very experienced and
dedicated Guzzisti who has offered to help and advise, he's
had his for many years, not sure what it started out as but it's
not an LM so when these two showed up out of the blue and
me being a bit taller I thought I'd ask for a more general
opinion. Good point about the clubs - I'll keep that in mind.

Any opinions on replacing the Oil Sensor with a Gauge?

Ta very Muchly,
Maurie.

[SED]

The LMIII still has saddles for handlebars cast in the top triple clamp.  Don't know if the later LMs are the same.  I put superbike bars on it and documented it over at Guzzitech.  (A flat bar won't allow the front brake master to clear the fork leg.)  This is a common mod and I got the idea from JJ who is on here.

http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/installing-higher-handle-bars-on-a-lmiii.5923/#post-44552

The superbike bars are nice for everything except the freeway where they put you up into the airstream a little more.  The LMIII fairing must be designed for clipons at >70mph as the airflow is perfect with the lower bars (or ducking down with the higher bars).

The higher handlebars made the bike much easier to ride around town, looking over your shoulder in traffic and parking.

2 other things that made the LMIII easier on the wrists is using the lighter carb return springs and getting rid of the lever tops on the carbs (though you have to change the twist grip if you are going to get the last 3mm travel out of the throttle.  I used a slower opening Emgo throttle control.).

Picture before swapping carb tops.

[groundhog105]

The lemans does make a great sport tourer. I am 67 and have a 89 lemans with the swan neck clipons. Physical conditioning is important but 3 to 500 mile days are very doable on these bikes. Go for it and modify the bike to fit you.

[MikeW]

Hi Maurie,

I'm in Ringwood and own a 1990 LeMans 5 and happy to chat about the pros and cons of LeMans ownership.

I have no issues with the riding position on my LeMans and I'm over 60 too.

Mike

[RANDM]

A little non plussed am I! Didn't expect all you Silverbacks
to chime in. Better break out the tea & bickies!
Thanks again for the responses - very encouraging to see
others my age enjoying them.

Thanks SED, put that on my reading list for the morning,
and I'll keep the handlebar saddles in mind.

The Tarozzis look the go to work with the LM Fairing, bit
tidier. I did a little Fibreglassing years back so if I had to
"adjust" the Fairing I could make one suitable.

Thanks for the offer Mike, very kind. My Daughter lives in
Warrenwood as it happens, we get up that way pretty
 regularly so a chat should be quite doable.

Better get my arse into gear, I'm getting excited now but
can't jump the gun. Just finished fitting new Uni's and
doing the FD on the R1150R and that's got to go to bankroll
the Guzzi, just started putting it back together so I better
get stuck in.

Thank you everyone.

Maurie.

[double.d]

A oil pressure gauge can be fitted. I took the sensor to a machine shop and got them to make a long brass hex bolt with a threaded end to screw into the block and also threaded on the other end to take the sensor. They then drilled and threaded a hole in the centre to take the OP gauge fittings. If it makes it easier to understand I can post a photo of the fitting ?

[huub]

you might want to do the test ride before selling the BMW,
any guzzi le mans will be extremely different from your current BMW.

i love guzzi's , but they are not as sensible and easy to live with as your oil head BMW.

[Dean Rose]

How about one of the later model Lemans set up withe the Ballabio bars that would be comfortable.


Dean

[RANDM]

Thanks DoubleD, but I can picture that in my noggin.
Suspenders and a belt and good to know.

Huub, I'm hoping and praying that Guzzi's ARE different
from the 1150 BMW. Easy to live with? Over 5 yrs what
I found was a rolling banquet of Designed Obsaleasance
iced with complete denial of any and all problems. A bike
that even if fully maintained could have any one of
numerous things crack the shits and leave you stranded.
I could go into it but I don't want to bore you.

When my Daughter had her first Bub she took a years
break from riding and I looked after her 800Sie Monster.
I got to really like the cadence, feel and delivery of a 90
Deg V though for me the Duc feels too lightly built.

I'm a roadrider - I don't ride the streets imagining I'm
Casey Stoner, on the road I don't need and wouldn't use
150+HP and all the complex engineering that produces it.
I want between 80 to 100 HP with strong mid-range torque,
with shaft drive. I want a solidly engineered bike that I can
maintain and repair myself and if maintained properly won't
let me down. I want a bike with good handling, character
and personality that engages me.

These things lead me to Moto Guzzi - Am I wrong ?

Please tell me why you think Guzzi's are harder to live with
than a bike designed by Accountants for continual delivery
of revenue? Seriously - you may well be the one sensible
person in the room.

The Tonti Le Mans may not be the exact model to suit me,
but if it isn't it seems I can build one that does - again am
I wrong ? If so please tell me, I need to hear it.

I've probably got 10-12 good riding years left before I need
a trycicle. I want to spend it with a bike that becomes a relied
on friend, not an Accountants answer to increased profit
margins dressed up in marketing speak.

Is that a Guzzi or not ?

Maurie.

[David 54]

I have an '83 Spada 1000, Tonti frame, adequate power and very comfortable

[double.d]

Tonti Lemans will only be hard to live with if you do not carry out some preventative maintenance, easy stuff. I posted recently that mine is now so reliable that all i do is check tyres and go. It's a little tricky to start since i removed the choke but once warmed up it fires up as soon as you hit the button.

Here is the pic anyway in case others are curious.

[RANDM]

DoubleD,
And I feel that it's important to do your own maintenance
as a way of keeping track of your bikes condition. Otherwise
you rely on workshops that could be good - or not.

Just two examples.
My Daughter's M800, at 12,000 klms she put it into a well
regarded shop for a Major Service including the cam belts,
she paid $800 for that and when it came back I took it for
a ride and felt the front end wasn't right. When I checked it
had loose headstock bearings and between 5 & 10mm
movement at the wheel spindle - great service.
 When I was rebuilding the FD on the BMW I took it to one
of the best regarded Melb. Shops to do the Pinion Oil Seal
as that cost less than the Special Tool for the Castellated
Gland Nut. They lied to me about having damaged the
aftermarket Paralever bearings trying to bullshit me into
putting the original made to fail TRB's back in.

I have friends who are top classic bike spanner men,
and from here on I want to look after my own and what
I can't do I'll pay them to help with.

Maurie.

[MikeW]

If you do your own maintenance, the older tonti framed Guzzis are easy to live with. There's not much you can't do yourself. The only real issue with buying older Guzzis that they are old and will often need a bunch of stuff done to them to bring them up the scratch. Things such as, wheel bearings, steering head bearings, swing arm bearings, fork seals, rear bevel seal, rear main seal, clutch and brakes. In saying that these are all things a mechanically minded owner can do themselves.

In regards to handling, the older Tonto framed Guzzis handle very well in the corners. You just have to get used to the '70s steering geometry which requires a counter steering riding technique.

Mike

[huub]

I'm a roadrider - I don't ride the streets imagining I'm
Casey Stoner, on the road I don't need and wouldn't use
150+HP and all the complex engineering that produces it.
I want between 80 to 100 HP with strong mid-range torque,
with shaft drive. I want a solidly engineered bike that I can
maintain and repair myself and if maintained properly won't
let me down. I want a bike with good handling, character
and personality that engages me.

These things lead me to Moto Guzzi - Am I wrong ?

Please tell me why you think Guzzi's are harder to live with
than a bike designed by Accountants for continual delivery
of revenue? Seriously - you may well be the one sensible
person in the room.

The Tonti Le Mans may not be the exact model to suit me,
but if it isn't it seems I can build one that does - again am
I wrong ? If so please tell me, I need to hear it.

I've probably got 10-12 good riding years left before I need
a trycicle. I want to spend it with a bike that becomes a relied
on friend, not an Accountants answer to increased profit
margins dressed up in marketing speak.

Is that a Guzzi or not ?

Maurie.

i think you have the right reasons to want a guzzi,
i have bmw riding friends who wouldnt even consider owning a guzzi, too heavy around town , throttle too stiff , clutch too stiff, dubious ergo's, carbs that needs regular synchronising, rusting brake discs, linked brakes etc. etc.
Personally those issue's are why i love my guzzi's. if i want a sensible bike i buy a honda or a BMW.
i dont mind getting some involvement into my bikes, not just riding them. 

ducati maintenance is a nightmare, i got fed up setting desmo valves, i still have ducati's , but hardly ever ride them.   
for me bikes are as much enjoying the mechanics side of it,
i love  just the sound of a guzzi with lafranconi's wake up from cold , and set into a lumpy idle.
or stopping after a long run, and hearing the bike cool, with the smell of hot oil.
a guzzi's will go on as long as you maintain them. it will eventually break down ( everything does) but if it does you can repair it yourself.

guzzi's are far from perfect, guzzi's are built by engineers ,not accountants.
having said that, you will start hating italian engineers
but at least they make beautifull bikes :-)

[mantaray]

 6000 km for this old couple last summer in Norway, no problems

[Chuck in Indiana]

Maurie, you'll be fine. Bin that Bavarian Money Waster, getta Guzzi, sort it yourself, and live happily ever after. 

[Don Ivey]

Maurie, you'll be fine. Bin that Bavarian Money Waster, getta Guzzi, sort it yourself, and live happily ever after. 

Damn!  If that's what Summer looks like in Norway, I don't even want to see Winter!

[mantaray]

oh we had 35 °F on hardangervidda (rainy) to 75 °F in the valley

[RANDM]

Does look a bit nippy there doesn't it! Wow I'm lucky, the
only days I won't ride are a couple of weeks in Winter
when we get some ice in shady nooks and 40c + days
in Summer.

Huub, then it's only semantics between us.
I'm semi rural so very little around town, I only use a car
for things I just can't do on a bike so ride nearly every
day - the discs won't get a chance to rust. I have a
Manometer ..��� you get it.
I don't see the problem with linked brakes, anyone
elucidate?

You mention feeling involvement but not while riding.
To me that's an important part of the onroad feeling
too. Let me put it this way - I cut my teeth on 60's/70's
British and Jap stuff where you had to be a Wingnut and
develop mechanical empathy to get the best from your
bike. You had to understand and meld with your machine
and the guys who could do that best we're the stand outs.

To me it seems that bond was retained through the 80's
into the 90's as bikes improved to become very capable
machines but now they've reached a point of perfection
where the only improvements to be had is by replacing
the most fallible input, the rider's input, with those of
computer driven aids to save the rider from himself
and for me that would be cutting the the feel and joy
of that meld in half. 

Also I generally find myself pushing it, just a bit, having
glorious local roads and on  modern bikes you don't get
that feeling until your doing Bang Splat very Icky Thump
stupid speeds. Around here that would involve very large
and immovable Eucalypts retarding your forward progress
At the slightest miscalculation. Bikes like that really belong
On the track where you can twist their balls and really enjoy
them. On the road they're useless to me, on the road I want
that Wingnut meld with a well engineered, capable bike that
feels in the groove from 100kph and up. A bike that I can feel
working and speaks to me so I can work with it and together
we can seek the mythical Perfect Line, whatever that line is
for that particular bike.

Mike, know what you mean and I expect and accept that.
Of course I'll be after a sound bike if possible and it would
be worked through as part of getting to know the bike.
Having said that, if I can't find what suits or fits me I'm
still up for building my own.

Good weekend everyone,
Maurie.