Breva Clocks Moisture

[tris]

Yes I know that there's a million different threads on the problem of mist in B11 clocks, and mine is on its second set and just shows some very slight misting after an hour or so out on a ride

I thought I take the opportunity to fix it NOW

There appears to be 2 favoured solutions to the problem

a) Take 'em apart, dry 'em out and seal 'em good and proper
b) Cut/drill holes in the bottom to let the moisture out

Any thoughts out there in Guzzi land as to which is best?

Cheers

[Moto]

There appears to be 2 favoured solutions to the problem

a) Take 'em apart, dry 'em out and seal 'em good and proper
b) Cut/drill holes in the bottom to let the moisture out

Any thoughts out there in Guzzi land as to which is best?

A complete, air tight, seal, if it could be achieved, might defeat the function of the air pressure sensor contained in the dash, which the engine relies on for mixture adjustment. But most "good and proper" sealing jobs might not be that effective.

I don't think anyone has enough data to answer your question with authority. We have plenty of threads of speculation, though.

Moto

[Kev m]

In the dash?

I see an Air Temperature Sensor INPUT the dash pinout (and a separate listing of a dash mounted temp sensor), but no mention of a pressure sensor.

Dash mounted temp sensor specs:
16 INSTRUMENT PANEL AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR
Resistance: 32.5 kΩ (at 0°C – 32°F)
Resistance: 10 kΩ (at 25°C – 77°F)


Then again, I see the Intake Air Temperature sensor in the ECM pinout (black connector, Pin 14) and see it mounted on the air box but again, no mention of a pressure sensor.

11 INTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR
NTC-type sensor
resistance: 3.7 KΩ (at 20°C – 68°F)

Though interestingly enough the torque value table references a mounting screw for the PRESSURE SENSOR on the airbox.

So what is it?

Baro sensor in dash, missing from wiring diagram and pinout

Temperature sensor on airbox, no pressure sensor used (more an Nalpha than Speed Density system, but that would be an odd duck with the 02 sensor)?

Temperature sensor on airbox is really a pressure sensor? (seems doubtful since they specifically say it's an Negative Temperature Coefficient (NTC) sensor and give an ambient reading. If it was a combined temperature/pressure sensor I'd expect more circuits.

The manual I have for an 8V Griso shows a similar lack of MAP or pressure sensor references.

So what say you guys who have looked at the mapping on these machines?

[Moto]

In the dash?

Yep. The only reference I've seen to it is two mentions in the Breva 1100 Service Manual, which is different from the Breva 1100 Workshop Manual. It shows the pin locations for the air pressure sensor, and also describes the default bar value supplied to the ECU in limp-home mode. No photos of it, though, and it seems like it could be integrated into the circuitry of the dashboard, which may be why it doesn't show on the main wiring diagram.

I haven't found any specs of its resistance at different atmospheric pressures.

This is not an air temperature sensor; there are two of those, one in the dash (for display on the dash) and one in the intake (for use by the ECU). It is unfortunate that the air pressure sensor is in the dash, IMO.

I refreshed my memory by looking at the manual this morning, but don't have it handy here at work.

Moto

[Kev m]

Funny that the miss that in so many copies of their literature (and in so many places). But thanks for the info, that's good to know.

I mean they had to screw up both the ECM and Dash pinouts to have a sensor in the dash that needs to talk to the ECM but not document how/where. And they miss it in the trouble code lists. And to miss it on the Griso 8V manual too is really sad.

[Kev m]

Ahh, finally found a reference to it in the Breva1100 Model Feature Guide:

The computer is an electronic unit of the digital type with microprocessor .To
realize optimal functioning of the engine, via a series of sensors, functioning
and condition of the engine are continuously monitored.
The principal sensors are:
- Engine RPM sensor measures the number of revolutions of
the engine and the phase of each
cylinder with respect to TDC
-Throttle position sensor: measures the opening angle of the
throttle valve
Secondary or correction sensors are:
- Pressure sensor (in dashboard): measures barometric pressure
- Air temperature sensor: measures intake are temperature
- Engine temperature sensor: measures engine temperature

[Kev m]

Looks like it's ECM Connector B - either pin 20 or 29 the CAN lines that carry the Baro signal.

[Moto]

Funny that the miss that in so many copies of their literature (and in so many places). But thanks for the info, that's good to know.

I mean they had to screw up both the ECM and Dash pinouts to have a sensor in the dash that needs to talk to the ECM but not document how/where. And they miss it in the trouble code lists. And to miss it on the Griso 8V manual too is really sad.

Yes, it's not too well documented! Isn't there a CAN bus connection between the dash and ECU, or am I imagining that?

EDIT -- You beat me to that.

[tris]

Well that pressure sensor wont be an issue as my clocks have 4 off (1/8" dia) vents in the back with some sort of half a55ed labyrinth seal inside.

I realised what they were when I found I could see light through the clock from the back!! They're also open as I established by sticking a pipe on them in turn and sucking   

I've only (so far) seen a little misting right at the bottom edge after an hour or so riding on a cold day. So am wondering if the warmth from the electronics in the dash causes cold/moist air to be drawn in through the lowest vent which then condenses on the clear face ??

So, sealing the front will stop any rain getting in through poor seals, but if the clocks are "sucking" (I use the word advisedly) cold air that then condenses - what to do

Maybe
a) stick a pipe on it to pull the air from a warmer area - under the tank maybe
b) drill/cut drain holes to, let any water that does get in ...... out again. I must admit I'm a bit leery about cutting the clocks 

[Moto]

Yes, my Griso's dashboard is also vented. I expect all were.

[Moto]

I did a little googling, but maybe someone here knows better.

There don't seem to be membranes that you can glue over the ports to keep out water vapor while allowing air to pass, because H20 is a smaller molecule than O2 and N2. Or are there?

You could hermetically seal the dashboard and fill it with nitrogen (which I understand is available in tire stores with little if any water vapor in it). To allow the barometer in the dash to continue to read external air pressure, you could attach a bellows of some kind to the chamber.

That's all I've got. It might be fun to do, but it seems like work, too.

I do worry about dashboard longevity, and think that moisture could be a problem.

Moto

P.S. I've opened up the dash in the past, and it's not much of a problem; looks like it could be sealed.

[canuguzzi]

I did a little googling, but maybe someone here knows better.

There don't seem to be membranes that you can glue over the ports to keep out water vapor while allowing air to pass, because H20 is a smaller molecule than O2 and N2. Or are there?

You could hermetically seal the dashboard and fill it with nitrogen (which I understand is available in tire stores with little if any water vapor in it). To allow the barometer in the dash to continue to read external air pressure, you could attach a bellows of some kind to the chamber.

That's all I've got. It might be fun to do, but it seems like work, too.

I do worry about dashboard longevity, and think that moisture could be a problem.

Moto

P.S. I've opened up the dash in the past, and it's not much of a problem; looks like it could be sealed.

Tyvek. It is a vapor barrier and there is both tape and adhesive used to hold it in place. There might be some stuff purpose made for gauges and such but this might work.

[Moto]

Tyvek. It is a vapor barrier and there is both tape and adhesive used to hold it in place. There might be some stuff purpose made for gauges and such but this might work.

Dupont's website says: "DuPont™ Tyvek® weather barriers have a unique structure, with millions of extremely fine pores that resist bulk water and air penetration, but allow water vapor to pass through and escape the building." So I don't think that would work.

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/construction-materials/building-envelope-systems/articles/understanding-vapor-permeability.html

[Craig in Alabama]

Hi Folks,

I don't know if it would work in this case, but I had misty gauges on a K100RS several years ago. I took the back of the gauge pod off and put a couple packs of silica gel in there. Never had the problem again.

Cheers!
Craig

[Doppelgaenger]

Tris,

Living in the seattle area, and with nowhere to park the bike indoors, I came up with a solution that has been less than ideal but is still working better than just leaving it open.

I routed 3/8s inch clear hose from the vents in the back of the dash to an aquarium style cutoff. That way I can open the air to the dash when I need to and keep it closed when I'm not riding. It hasn't worked entirely because there is still some place where air is getting in, but it has helped a lot. It also means I can hook up a source of air flow (aquarium pump) and dry it out in about 20 minutes.

I have a write-up typed up, but I haven't posted it yet. I can get it uploaded soon and I'll let you know when I do. I've thought about making a silica gel cartridge that hooks up to those hoses just to keep it bone dry. But I've never experienced condensation while riding, only from letting it sit under a bike cover.

[tris]

.............There don't seem to be membranes that you can glue over the ports to keep out water vapor while allowing air to pass, because H20 is a smaller molecule than O2 and N2. Or are there?............

Moto

They do exist - go here https://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/venting/index.html  or for self adhesive one go here http://www.porex.com/products/electrical-electronics/vents-for-enclosure-boxes-electronics-housings/?gclid=CNnPktm_zsoCFRDhGwodH50Mxw NOTE these "claim" to be IP67 which means you can jet wash them 

Problem is I can't find them for love nor money over here - so far!

.........I routed 3/8s inch clear hose from the vents in the back of the dash to an aquarium style cutoff. That way I can open the air to the dash when I need to and keep it closed when I'm not riding. It hasn't worked entirely because there is still some place where air is getting in, but it has helped a lot. It also means I can hook up a source of air flow (aquarium pump) and dry it out in about 20 minutes...........

Dopplegaenger
My thoughts had been going along similar lines so still an option to be considered

All this does beg the question as to where this moisture is coming from.

is it
A) from the outside wold via rain/washing
B) from moist air getting into the clocks and repeatedly condensing out until there is enough the drown the electronics

If A you'd think that it must be possible to seal things up so it can't get in
If B on the face of it with the existing design difficult to decide what might fix it

I KNOW
We'll follow Doppelgaengers lead and plumb it into a 12v pump and pressurise the clocks .
That'll stop the water getting in but make the pressure sensor think that the bike is 1000 feet below sea level 

[Kev m]

I would think the moisture is all condensation or there would be a lot more.

[tris]

I would think the moisture is all condensation or there would be a lot more.

I tend to agree Kev

So we plumb in one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Model-R385-12V-3M-DC-Water-Air-Diaphragm-Pump-Micro-Small-Tank-Aquarium-Fish-/321880399241?hash=item4af1911d89:g:4z0AAOSw4HVWC7Ie

It pumps at 1-3 l/minute so should be plenty to keep the flow moving but do we suck or blow      Maybe we suck and use the lowest vent. That way if the water gets deep enough it'll pump it out for us 

The beauty of this is that no surgery is needed plus its reversible

The simplest solution though is to make some drains. I found this on Guzzitech http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/condensation-in-clocks-breva-griso.1892/ Open the link at the beginning

The problem I have is whist I can see the reasoning I'm still unsure as to how much space the is from the inside of the casing to the PCB

I feel I need to do something as having replaced the ICV and starter motor already I could do without another £300 bill for a set of clocks

[Doppelgaenger]

It's ambient moisture condensing inside, outside water can't get in that I know of, when I did my clocks I still used clear silicone around the top edge thought. My clocks were cracked around the back for who knows what reason and that had to be sealed too. I know that I didn't achieve air tightness with my mod, but it has made a large difference regarding how much humidity makes it in.

for the record, moisture that is showing up while you're riding means that there was already water in your clocks which has now evaporated to mist things up, it's not getting in while you're riding, nor is it condensing in there as you ride. I think it's the heat of the electronics that vaporizes it.