Problem with heated gloves on '13 V7

[drawnverybadly]

Hey all, I was hoping someone could educate me on my heated glove situation.
I know the 2013 V7 isn't the greatest bike for installing heated gear due to it's low power output, so I replaced the headlight and taillight bulbs with LEDS and hooked up the Tourmaster Synergy wiring for heated gloves. Problem is the gloves will only get very slightly warm when my RPMs are over 6000.
Has anyone here been able to successfully use heated gear on their 2013 V7s? Is there some sort of trick to get them working?

My gloves- http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/tour-master-synergy-20-heated-leather-gloves

[swordds]

I bought a BPS C-100 12 V 97.68 Wh rechargeable lithium battery pack. Came with multiple connection adapters and works great with my heated gloves. I just stick the battery pack inside my jacket.

[Wayne Orwig]

Install a voltmeter.
Report back.

The V7 charging system should have 24 watts to spare, even with the original headlight.

[drawnverybadly]

Yeah I have experience with gloves that use rechargeable battery packs but I felt limited by the relatively short heat time and it was annoying to have to recharge every night, if I forgot to plug in the night before I was boned the next morning.

[Kev m]

Install a voltmeter.
Report back.

The V7 charging system should have 24 watts to spare, even with the original headlight.

THIS ^^^

FWIW I used an old Widder vest and gloves the day I picked mine up 3 years ago and have used them off and on in the winter since. I've never had a problem.

[drawnverybadly]

Ok reporting back with voltmeter findings
Using this meter attached to my battery- http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0158-Disconnect-Charger/dp/B00DJ5KEF4

With the bike off the voltmeter is showing 31.1v and when the gloves are plugged in at high power the voltage starts to drop down to 12.6
With the bike turned on at idle the meter is showing 15.5v and holds at 15.5v as I rev the bike up to 4000rpm
With the bike turned on and gloves plugged in at high power the meter shows 15.5v at idle and stays there as the bike is revved up to 4000rpm

[canuguzzi]

If his battery is low on capacity, then at lower engine speeds the battery will suffer.

Recommend he determines the actual current going to the gloves and capacity of the battery, it can have good voltage yet not have good capacity. The symptom will be inadequate current at lower engine speeds since the battery can't maintain the draw from the gloves when charging current is at a deficit.

OPs comment about the higher RPMs needed to get the gloves warm indicate current deficiency.

A battery with low capacity remaining can still show good voltage.

OP could easily install this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/30-amp-automotive-fuse-circuit-tester-67724.html

in between and it will show the draw the gloves are pulling from the battery.

According to the specs for those gloves, it needs the 24 watts/2 amps. If he isn't getting the watts/amps it doesn't matter what the volts are if they are correct for the battery. 12 watts at the proper voltage won't do it and a voltmeter isn't going to provide the information.

OP could also use a multimeter and use the typical 10 amp range to check draw but the small device makes it much easier.

[malik]

I use the Powerlet RapidFire heated glove liners & heated jacket liner on the V7C the 2014 V7 Special and have never noticed any problem using them together or separately. My headlight & indicators are standard. I'm unsure of the power draw of the Powerlet system, but your bike should be able to handle those gloves of yours. I suspect there has to be something amiss in either your system or with the gloves. Good luck isolating the culprit.

[Wayne Orwig]

Ok reporting back with voltmeter findings
Using this meter attached to my battery- http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0158-Disconnect-Charger/dp/B00DJ5KEF4

With the bike off the voltmeter is showing 31.1v and when the gloves are plugged in at high power the voltage starts to drop down to 12.6
With the bike turned on at idle the meter is showing 15.5v and holds at 15.5v as I rev the bike up to 4000rpm
With the bike turned on and gloves plugged in at high power the meter shows 15.5v at idle and stays there as the bike is revved up to 4000rpm

1. That link takes me to a USB adapter.
2. Bike off, 31.1V? What? Maybe you mean 13.1V, that would be OK. Voltages drops to 12.6V with gloves and bike off. So far, perfect.
3. 15.5V at idle and hold 15.5V. That is on the high side, and I would expect the battery to dry out.
4. Again, 15.5V with gloves on and at idle. You sure don't have a problem with voltages. Though I actually suspect the meter you have isn't too good to be honest.

[drawnverybadly]

Whoops, I meant to link to this- http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0157-Disconnect-Voltage/dp/B00DJ5KE9A

And that 31.1v was a typo, you are correct I meant 13.1v
So I just ran the numbers again with a digital multimeter and I was getting pretty much the same numbers, just with more decimal points 15.5v vs 15.47v, ect.
I also just tried the gloves on a Vespa LX150 and they worked great, felt noticeable heat at idle after a minute.

So the problem is definitely something with the bike, I know the gloves are receiving power because the light on the heat controller is lit up, do you think that 15.5v charging has damaged the battery to the point that it won't heat up the gloves? I've been reading forum posts that the V7 charging system overcharges the battery and will eventually kill it. The battery still cranks the bike over no problem even in the freezing weather we've had the last few days, so as much as I'm loathe to buy a new battery when the current one works it looks like that's the route I'm gonna have to go.

[drawnverybadly]

sigh. so in your first post. you think the bike cant handle the load from a pair of gloves so you change out the headlight to an  LED.  then in another post you say you think the bike overcharges and will burn out your battery.  and then you say you get 15v at idle from your alternator and that it never varies as rpms rise.  this is all very improbable.  return your bike to stock.  return your gloves for another pair and start over.  also.  put the voltmeter on your bike with it in stock condition and MINUS the gloves.  then tell us what it reads at idle and 4000k.  its very simple.

I changed my bulbs from halogen to LED mostly because I like the way LED light output looks, the power savings were secondary. My concerns with powering heated stuff came from the Powerlet website where the V7 is rated 1/5 for excess electrical capacity- http://www.powerlet.com/shop-by-vehicle

I don't know what's so improbable about 15v at idle to 4k rpm, if you Google-fu "V7 overcharge" you'll find other posts saying '13-'15 V7s will idle at 15v.
The gloves aren't the problem as they work great on another bike.
How would returning the bike to stock affect alternator output?

[Kev m]

Not sure why the gloves aren't working on your V7, but the vintage you're reporting is a tad high, which suggests the regulator is allowing it to over charge.

Do you see that high a voltage when the gloves are NOT being used?

If so, then I'd suggest you check the regulator connections, especially the ground and if you can't get it to charge at no more than about mid 14.something then you consider replacing the regulator to protect the battery and rest of the electrical system.

BTW, the condition of the battery means little with regards to powering the gloves when the bike is running except that when a properly operating charging system sees low battery voltage it should increase charging system output to replace it. But shy a dead short in the battery the charging system itself should be able to keep the bike and gloves operational once the bike is running even if the battery isn't holding a charge. But of course you're not complaining that the battery can't start the bike so it is currently still holding some manner of charge.

[pyoungbl]

15V is excessive and points to a faulty R/R (we used to just call them voltage regulators but now they are Rectifier/Regulators).  I replaced my R/R because of this issue and now the bike charges at 14.X.  I don't recall any R/R ground strap on my '13 V7.  Even with a heated liner at full blast my bike is charging once I'm over about 3K rpm. 

At idle I see an intermittent discharge with nothing running other than the GPS and normal lights.  Starting at about 2K rpm the bike is charging enough to offset the GPS and lights...but not the liner.  I believe that OP's problem is with his controller installation.  There must be some point of resistance in that circuit so the gloves are not getting full power.  He's getting lots of charge, just not to the gloves.  If the gloves are going directly to the controller the connection should be easy to check.  If, on the other hand, the gloves are connected to a liner and the liner to the controller....a bit more complicated.  I have seen both systems.  Oh, and what kind of controller?  Is it an older rheostat unit or one of the newer pulsed ones?

Peter Y.

[canuguzzi]

The condition of the battery absolutely does matter. All current must go through the battery to the draw unless something is wired directly to the charging source.

Obviously as the facts show, low voltage isn't the problem. 15 volts wouldn't be a problem as far as the gloves are concerned even if it is a problem otherwise. As a fact, the gloves work.

Going back to stock as the recommendation to get rid of the LEDs makes zero sense as the effect of the LEDs would.reduce the current draw, not current going to the gloves
.

You can have 12-15 volts and low amps. Checking only one (volts) explains why people have low capacity batteries that show good voltage yet can't start their vehicle.

Check the current getting to the gloves. If it isn't enough, volts won't matter because you must have the 24 watts/2 amps.

Why do you think the manufacturer specifies 24 watts / 2 amps if that doesn't matter. If low voltage was the problem then the factual evidence that there are sufficient volts would mean they should work but they are not working.

Check all parameters between the battery and gloves. That mwants both volts AND amps. It is easy to do.

Or, go the route as someone said and undo all the work you've done, removing and replacing lights, sending working gloves back when they've checked out on another bike to be working and all that.

Best of luck to the OP.

BTW, you can install an under capacity battery in the bike, it will have the proper voltage, will it reliably start the bike? No. Will a compromised battery have the capacity to run all accessories if it can't flow proper current? No.

[canuguzzi]

I know the 2013 V7 isn't the greatest bike for installing heated gear due to it's low power output, so I replaced the headlight and taillight bulbs with LEDS and hooked up the Tourmaster Synergy wiring for heated gloves.

your words.  plus what does 1/5 stars from a website correlate to watts?  not sure of that conversion.

the point is, if you return the bike to stock you can measure the volts at idle and at 4-5k.  then you can determine if you have a faulty regulator rectifier (R/R),  the more variables you enter into an equation, the more likely you just gonna chase your tail trying to solve a problem.

The point should be to determine the voltage AND current (amps) getting to the gloves.  That is the easiest thing to check.

Check simple things first before dismantling work and chasing other problems that might not exist.

Will 12-14 volts and 1 amp run the gloves properly?

[Wayne Orwig]

Whoops, I meant to link to this- http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0157-Disconnect-Voltage/dp/B00DJ5KE9A

And that 31.1v was a typo, you are correct I meant 13.1v
So I just ran the numbers again with a digital multimeter and I was getting pretty much the same numbers, just with more decimal points 15.5v vs 15.47v, ect.
I also just tried the gloves on a Vespa LX150 and they worked great, felt noticeable heat at idle after a minute.

So the problem is definitely something with the bike, I know the gloves are receiving power because the light on the heat controller is lit up, do you think that 15.5v charging has damaged the battery to the point that it won't heat up the gloves? I've been reading forum posts that the V7 charging system overcharges the battery and will eventually kill it. The battery still cranks the bike over no problem even in the freezing weather we've had the last few days, so as much as I'm loathe to buy a new battery when the current one works it looks like that's the route I'm gonna have to go.

1. Measure the voltage AT THE GLOVES. If it is near 15 volts, then the problem is not the bike.
2. I assume you have a thermostat on the gloves. Maybe the system noise in the V7 is confusing the thermostat and that is the issue. Hard to imagine, but just a wild guess.
3. From what you have said so far, the charging system is not the problem (well, other then it maybe over charging).

[M0T0Geezer]

Glove liners tend to draw less current.

I've used these liners (work great!) for two winters on an '04 Breva 750.  No power problems on 11 watt draw:

http://lockitt.com/Lockitt/product/HCWS92.html

5-speed controller:

 http://lockitt.com/Lockitt/product/EHPL317.html

Geezer

[canuguzzi]

Glove liners tend to draw less current.

I've used these liners (work great!) for two winters on an '04 Breva 750.  No power problems on 11 watt draw:

http://lockitt.com/Lockitt/product/HCWS92.html

5-speed controller:

 http://lockitt.com/Lockitt/product/EHPL317.html

Geezer

  :1:

Good catch. Probably better than heated grips where only your palms get heat.

[ohiorider]

This thread got me thinking about the number of years I've owned and ridden the 1991 R100GS, with an alternator output rated at 280W.  Can't tell you at what rpm, though I do know that the stock charging system on airheads didn't output much until over 3000rpm.

I found a post on GuzziTech where the same issue of charging system output was being discussed.  I cannot confirm these numbers, but the posters said they found them in Guzzi manuals.  They claimed the older 'dry' alternator had higher output (340W) than the new one that runs in an oil bath (270W.)  Watts at xxxx RPM wasn't provided.

I've installed a fairly large battery, approx. 25AH, which provides some cushion in the event I'm spending too much time in town in slow traffic.  When traveling in the mountains in Colorado in June, and general cool weather riding closer to home, I've found it necessary to turn on the heated grips and plug in an old Widder vest (no sleeves.)  At speed the alternator was evidently outputting more juice than the lights, ignition, grips and vest were consuming, since I had no issues starting the bike after hours of 60+mph riding, at say, 4000rpm.

However, comparing the old GS's available watts with the Guzzi may not be an apples to apples comparison, since the Beemer is not fuel injected, therefore not powering a fuel pump, however, I don't how much difference that'd make.  I would think low beam (55W) and tail light (10-12W?) would be about the same.

So yes, if your charging system is working properly, and if your gloves (and controller, if there is one) aren't defective, you should be able to operate a pair of heated gloves without issue.

[canuguzzi]

Op is trying to determine why his gloves aren't working on this specific bike. OPbstated they work on other bikes.

Check simple things first. Everyone knows that, well, almost everyone.

It could as simple as the wiring to the gloves. Easy check, wire (fused) directly to the battery. Engine off. Gloves work? Not wiring to gloves but maybe circuit if not normally wired direct.

Then check other things.

Removing installed lights, sending back gloves, sniping the OPs comments about ratings of the product is hardly helping.

Try helping the OP instead of doing what you're doing.

[Bravo Sierra]

Let me add my 2c here. I run heated grips, heated jacket and heated gloves on my 2013 V7 all the time, works good last a long time. Two observations if you can keep your hands in heated gloves on high or with out a controller for more than a couple minutes you not getting much current. When I first got my V7 a had some electrical issues and to make a long story short discovered the ground point, where the cable grounds to the frame was painted! Remove paint all has been well since.   

BS

[canuguzzi]

The Tour master Synergy heated gloves has several connection methods. The idea is to eliminate the gloves wiring as the problem before delving into removing other accessories or changing other components and thus avoid chasing down things which are more difficult to diagnose OR more difficult to remove and then return to the current state if found not to be the problem.

Regardless of which wiring connection method the OP used, directly connecting that to the battery, if the battery is good, will reveal if the wiring itself is OK. If it is not, then deal with that. The remedy is simple.

If the wiring checks out and the OP uses a different circuit for in use then that is the next check but not what is being discussed right now because first things first.

All of this is predicated upon first checking and making sure the battery itself is in good condition, not just the voltage but also capacity sufficient to supply the gloves. That is accomplished via an on-line voltage and amp draw check, also simply accomplished.

As with all things like this, check tightness of connections but that was previously discussed.

By going step by step, the cause will be found. It will not be found taking lights apart and so on. OP has checked the charging system sufficiently to insure voltage supplied is adequate.

We can all forget simple things first, like no gas if the bike won't start, it happens and is no reason to make a fuss about.

Let's hope the OP just goes step by step and finds the solution. It is simple but not always easy. OP has enough info to get started regardless of how the gloves are wired.

[Vagrant]

I have a 2015 V7 with 1400 miles on in the last 3 weeks. thanks (I think) to another site I just checked the voltage out put with a digital volt meter I trust. not a harbor freight cheapo. 17.0 at idle and 17.4 at 3-4000 RPM. evidently lots of this going around but you never know it until the battery cooks usually out of warranty. next the cam sensor and finally the ECU. cure is a 2016 V7 II R.R..
I suspect his gloves are bad or his heat troller or the battery is about to fail.
sounds like all V7 owners need to check the out put quick.
my 2010 EV checks fine with the same volt meter. selling dealer has been called.

[canuguzzi]

^^^ Yes that post above.

The procedures I outlines will tell you if the battery can't provide the proper current. That was the reason for checking battery capacity and not just voltage.


OP said the gloves work on other bikes. Therefore, the problem rests with this particular bike. We have to take his word for the gloves working ok on other bikes in the absence of other information.

We do not know how accurate his voltage check readings are but in the absence of other information, we go on that too.

If the battery is AGM:

Charging voltages for that technology can be (in F degrees):

Temp Volts          Once fully charged:

32 - 15.30 volts  14.25 volts
50 - 15.06 volts  14.01
68 - 14.82 volts  13.77
77 - 14.70 volts  13.65
86 - 14.58 volts  13.53
104-14.34 volts  13.29

The once fully charges voltages are without a draw on the battery meaning it is in float, fully charged and being maintained.

Source: Those who make the batteries. Check for yourself, within a small variance, those charging voltages are correct.

From freezing temps to over 100 degrees F then, the charging voltages can be anywhere from a high of 15.3 volts to 14.34 volts correlating to temps and the battery will get sufficient voltage to charge.

The OP stated his charging voltage is 15.x volts so it depends on the temps he has when taking the voltage readings. Given that he is talking about heated gloves, it could be that the temps are rather low and thus the voltages can be higher without damaging the battery.

This is not made up, the information is easily found and can be corroborated by companies like Rolls, Trojan, Lifeline, and many many others. Whether it is for a motorcycle or car or whatever, the charging voltages are the same or close to the same. What matters is the rate of charge the batteries can accept and that is current (amps).

AGM batteries can withstand high rates of charge but there is a need to manage that because the smaller capacity batteries reach full charge much faster and once fully charged, maintaining voltages above the numbers above can damage the battery.

When a motorcycle is running, the charging voltages can be higher than float unless the charging system is producing more amps than are being drawn. That is because there is a draw on the battery and it will never float with the lights running and the draw of the engine's ignition and so on. This is if the charging system is working properly, the entire system, not just parts of it.

[canuguzzi]

The cause is unknown, it could be any number of causes, including the battery, or not, depending on what it turns out to be. It could be rain, cold weather or a EMP for all we know. What we do know is that no one knows.

All that is left is to go through an exercise to determine the fault and then you're good to go.

Then again, it could be blue...or green...or blue and green with red stripes.

It could be an RR or it could be YKK depending on if it is up or down or going up, maybe down.

What is known as fact, beyond any doubt is that if you eat a bowl of steel cut oats with some fruit and maybe a splash of honey, life will get better. That is a stone cold fact.

[canuguzzi]

Is it possible to make a steel cut oats battery?  With all the energy steel cut oats generate, surely someone has done it.

We need to find out just what the voltage of heathy bowl of steel cut oats has.

I'm thinking between .1 and 20 volts depending on what goes in the mix and what kind of steel was used in the cutting operation.

What say those in the know? Come on, someone has had to check their oats with a meter. 

[drawnverybadly]

Ok, so I managed to eliminate a couple of possibilities that might be the problem;

The gloves definitely work, I tested them on a Vespa using the same wires hooked directly to the battery
My battery is also good, I tried hooking my gloves up directly to the battery which I disconnected from the bike and it worked! (Thanks for the suggestion Norge Pilot)
I hooked the battery back up into the bike and the gloves still worked while the bike was not turned on, but as soon as I turned over the engine I felt the gloves start to lose heat, even though the heat controller was indicating that it was receiving power.

So knowing that my problem was occurring somewhere before the battery I started doing all the suggestions that I've gotten on this forum, I made sure my two ground wires connections on the left side of the engine block was tight, clean and paint free. I lifted the tank to check my regulator wires and connectors were fully seated. I checked all the wires I could to make sure nothing was rubbed open and maybe shorting. And finally I reinstalled halogen bulbs into the headlight and taillight.
I still had the same problems, gloves don't heat even though the controller seems to show it has power. 

My voltage readings are pretty much the same as last night-
13.1v with the battery turned off
12.4v with gloved turned on at highest setting and bike off
15.5v with bike turned on at idle and revved up to 4000rpm, I didn't rev higher than this because I like my neighbors
15.5v with bike turned on and gloves on at highest setting

Voltage readings were taken right at battery terminals
Gloves are wired directly to the battery via fused pigtail on battery terminal to single channel rheostat controller to Y-split wires to gloves
Temps during readings were 30F last night and 50F today
I wasn't sure if my 10A multimeter would be able to read amperage on the bike without blowing the fuse in the meter so I didn't attempt it
I'm not sure how I can measure draw at the gloves without cutting open the wires

I'm currently following a thread on Guzzitech about overcharging '13-'15 V7s killing various electronics on the bike so I'm shutting down the V7 until a V7II regulator gets delivered and installed. If after changing the regulator I still can't get the gloves to work, I'm just gonna install them permanently onto the Vespa and use 7V battery powered gloves on the Guzzi. For anyone else that has heated gear working on '13-'15 V7s, would you mind checking the voltage with the bikes on and reporting back?

Thanks all for your help and suggestions, I'll be sure to report back after I install the new regulator.

[canuguzzi]

Good work.

We now know (as was obvious to most) that the lights weren't the culprit but ok, effort was expended and it's done.

If the VR device was allowing 17 volts to the battery, a voltmeter would clearly indicate that because the meter will read the higher voltage. A charging source that is putting 17 volts to the battery will clearly indicate so when you check voltage with the engine running.

You've already checked voltage with the engine off and with it running, it isn't 17 volts. Those are facts you've relayed.

So you have 15.x volts at the battery (highest) so it can't be 17 volts getting to the battery if you are checking voltage at the battery.

What seems to be obvious is that once the engine starts, there is insufficient current to operate the gloves. You could have 12+ volts going to the gloves but less than 2 amps which is what the manufacturer says is required.

Since you checked the voltage when the bike is running and the gloves are connected directly to the battery that leaves insufficient current (amps).

Keep in mind that although the gloves heat up, that does not mean they are working properly. You've established that they heat up fine off the battery engine off and when connected to another bike. That doesn't mean they aren't drawing too much current (amps).

This is why I keep saying to check amps. Volts without amps behind it does zip except tell you how many volts you have. You could have 21 volts but with say 1/100 of an amp, the gloves would't get warm. Likewise, you could have 14.x volts and .5 amps and still the gloves would not get nice and warm.

In the end, if you are trying to find the problem, you need to check both volts and amps available for the gloves and find out why there is insufficient current to operate the glove when the engine is running.  Using that little device I posted about earlier will easily tell you exactly how many amps those gloves are drawing. You wouldn't need to cut any wires. Auto parts stores or Harbor will have the necessary connectors that plug and play. Once you see the device you'll know just what connectors you need.

Before changing out any more parts, find the problem because with each part you swap out, you could be masking the problem. Then you go down the road all happy and an hour into your ride, darkness.

Otherwise you are just buying parts and other things hoping to stumble upon the solution. (OMFG that sounds like... )

 

[Kev m]

13.1v with the battery turned off
12.4v with gloved turned on at highest setting and bike off
15.5v with bike turned on at idle and revved up to 4000rpm, I didn't rev higher than this because I like my neighbors
15.5v with bike turned on and gloves on at highest setting

Do I understand you correctly that the test in bold (15.5V, up to 4k rpm) was gloves not connected?

If so, yes, you're overcharging.

I'm guessing the gloves have some protective circuit which is why they're not working on your V7 with the motor running.

[jas67]

Do I understand you correctly that the test in bold (15.5V, up to 4k rpm) was gloves not connected?

If so, yes, you're overcharging.

I'm guessing the gloves have some protective circuit which is why they're not working on your V7 with the motor running.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've run heated gear, both gloves and jacket for up to 90 watts of draw on all three of the V7's that I've owned (2009 V7C, 2013 V7R, 2014 V7S), and never had any problem with lack of heat or charging.