Time to get serious - V7C engine out

[malik]

I've been accumulating minor problems - gearshift return spring broken, a bend somewhere in the centrestand that was inconvenient, the kickstand falling down under way & operating the engine cutout all by itself, but a slipping clutch couldn't be ridden around, so the bullet was bitten. And as I now have a place to do it in (7 of us got together to rent an industrial unit),and some sterling assistance, there's no excuses.

Rear wheel off, bevel box off



With the swingarm up out of the way, access to the clutch operating arm is possible



Swingarm off - straight-forward - elegant engineering there, I thought



Disconnect whole loads of stuff, cables, sensors, electrics, throttle bodies (a real struggle with the TB to airbox rubber manifolds, eventually conquered), support the engine, loosen mounting bolts







Lift the frame up & over, one by one undoing the half dozen connections we'd missed, & wheeling the frame away - no way I could have done this alone.



leaving behind one motive unit



the engine was looking a bit grimy after 120,000km & 5 years



but cleaned up marvelously





the bell housing came off easily - looks a bit red in there, and damp with a film of oil, but comes off black on the hand & rag



the flywheel/chain ring off & clutch disc out - to be taken to someone who knows more for assessment



and the steel faces show an interesting mottling





We took it slow & steady, with adequate supplies of coffee, tea & beer, constantly referring to the advice of those who had gone before us (thanks, guys), and have managed to get this far in only a couple of days.

Now need to find the circlip pliers (they are around my place, somewhere) and borrow/organise/fabricate the special tools to undo the locknut on the spline, the long allen keys for the gearbox innards & see what replacement parts are needed. So far, so good. Getting close & intimate with your favourite ride is really a lot of fun - but then we haven't tried getting it together yet, so it's still early days.

[Cool Runnings]

Looks like a nice workshop. 

[twowings]

Labors of love are the best.....

[Muzz]

Been there, done that on the Breva.

Warning, the nut on the mainshaft MAY be done up to about 10million foot/tons.

My "special" tools were made up from an old socket fitted to a long piece of steel with a crank in it to clear the case, and the spline tool from the centre of an old  burnt out clutch, again with a long handle welded on. (and I am talking long)

[Chuck in Indiana]

no way I could have done this alone.

Sure you could. You could probably do it the next time. 

[ohiorider]

What year is your V7C, and how many miles on it?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Bob

[Kent in Upstate NY]

120 K times .61 gives you 73000 miles.

[canuck750]

Well done, and good use of the chair!

[pete roper]

Mal, that sort of discolouration is pretty normal. You can probably get the faces ground but be aware it may shorten the life of the next clutch.

They're in stock in Sydney $105 to you, retail is $120. Probably cheaper overseas but do the sums on postage.

Pete

[ohiorider]

120 K times .61 gives you 73000 miles.

Kent, thanks.  I didn't see the mileage figure that was in the post.  That mileage is about the same as when my R100GS rear main seal failed, soaking the clutch, causing it to slip. 

Really nice post on what is required to make the clutch repair on a dry clutch shaft drive bike.

Bob

[malik]

Been there, done that on the Breva.

Warning, the nut on the mainshaft MAY be done up to about 10million foot/tons.

My "special" tools were made up from an old socket fitted to a long piece of steel with a crank in it to clear the case, and the spline tool from the centre of an old  burnt out clutch, again with a long handle welded on. (and I am talking long)

I'd been saving that Nick Webb article with the contributions from you and NolaGuzzi for just such an occasion. As I said, inspirational - & the humour didn't hurt at all. What's your favourite tipple? I'll bring something along for you next time I fly to Christchurch (where the Sport lives).

 I've sourced a socket at the local bearing place for $20, but it will be an impact socket, so I'll have to take it to someone with a serious drill if I need to have it bored out. The verdict on the clutch plate is that it would be better to replace it, so I have the start of a spline grabber. I'll be checking out a friend's special tools for the big blocks on Tuesday to see how he's made them up & go from there. Just around the corner from the Shed is a scrap metal merchant, a constant attraction. Have already picked up some lengths of gal pipe for use as levers/moment arms, so I'll be looking for some steel bar next week, along with the 8 m of angle iron we will need to fab up a stand for the stainless parts washer (500x500x200mm with drain hole & perforated grate) we found on Friday.

[sign216]

Good job.  I congratulate you.  73,000 miles on the clutch, eh?  That's a good data point to have.

[v65tt]

my record is 4hrs ride in , new clutch , ride out....

make sure the rear thrust bearing is in good condition , pref cable tie the clutch arm to the clutch cable mount, if the bearing fails and you start the engine you will end up with a mushroom ended push rod welded to the centre of the flywheel.... i speak from bitter experiance

[malik]

Ouch! That sounds nasty. My thrust bearing is worn. Even before I took it out to check, I'd bought a new one - the outer body was recessed. The push rod looks good - the hardening is still there, but I'm uncertain about the cup, and those tiny filings of fresh metal were worrisome, so I'm getting a new one of those too...... while I'm in there.

[v65tt]

from what i found the push rod and cup have not changed much from the mk1 v35 back through to the last 5 speed v7 stone .

I used a v7 stone push rod and cup when i rebuild my monza powered v35, it had a spiral machined into it that forced a little oil or grease round the end of the rod  and cup.  deff worth upgrading if yours has the older smooth ended push rod.


Have got the welded rod as a souvenir , ill dig it out and post a picture!

[malik]

Mine has the spiral groove - 2010. When I get to tear down the 2002 Nevada I'll check it's one too. (The Nevada has a holed crankcase and its frame is needed for a Breva, but that project has to wait until this one is up & running).

[BugSpatteredJacket]

I have to say I am envious of you for having the  to tackle that. I would love to do it too someday when the time comes but I am so afraid of screwing up. I have been institutionalized by dealerships into thinking only they know what they are doing despite the fact that I know better. Anyways, well done, good reference point and I look forward to seeing how you get on putting this all back together.

[Guzzistajohn]

120 K on the little beast. Impressive!

[Muzz]

I'd been saving that Nick Webb article with the contributions from you and NolaGuzzi for just such an occasion. As I said, inspirational - & the humour didn't hurt at all. What's your favourite tipple? I'll bring something along for you next time I fly to Christchurch (where the Sport lives).

 

This could be dangerous!

[malik]

Nah! Baggage limit is 23kg.

[Muzz]

Nah! Baggage limit is 23kg.

23kg of Glenmorangie is a fair bit!

[SmithSwede]

Thanks for the pictures.   OK, you've got 73,000 miles on it--are you planning to check the valves or maybe re-condition the head?  Or have you decided the valves are ok as is?   

I'm curious how long we can expect the valves on a modern small block to last.   Can't seem to get a good answer. 

I seem to recall that on the BMW airheads, you would start thinking of a valve job around the 75,000 to 100,000 mile mark.  But for all I know, BMW airhead valve service intervals are not comparable to a modern Guzzi, which may use different materials, better lubrication, different design, etc. 

[sign216]

Thanks for the pictures.   OK, you've got 73,000 miles on it--are you planning to check the valves or maybe re-condition the head?  Or have you decided the valves are ok as is?   

I'm curious how long we can expect the valves on a modern small block to last.   Can't seem to get a good answer. 

I seem to recall that on the BMW airheads, you would start thinking of a valve job around the 75,000 to 100,000 mile mark.  But for all I know, BMW airhead valve service intervals are not comparable to a modern Guzzi, which may use different materials, better lubrication, different design, etc.

Swede,
When I put in big bore pistons to my V7 at 5k miles, I freshened up the valves.  They weren't worn, but had accumulated a surprising amount of deposits.  And that's with using Tier 1 gasoline all the way.
Joe

[malik]

Thanks for the pictures.   OK, you've got 73,000 miles on it--are you planning to check the valves or maybe re-condition the head?  Or have you decided the valves are ok as is?   

I'm curious how long we can expect the valves on a modern small block to last.   Can't seem to get a good answer. 

I seem to recall that on the BMW airheads, you would start thinking of a valve job around the 75,000 to 100,000 mile mark.  But for all I know, BMW airhead valve service intervals are not comparable to a modern Guzzi, which may use different materials, better lubrication, different design, etc.

Apart from the clutch & air/fuel issues, the bike has been running well - no change in the tappet gaps, consistent fuel consumption, so at present further plans for more tear-downs, at least until after the upcoming trip (and hopefully not during it). After, say, 200,000 km perhaps. Otherwise, if it ain't broke ..... But I'll check what I can closely.

The air/fuel issues - I had been experiencing some missing/surging on constant throttle around 4,000 rpm. On my bike this was usually fixed by cleaning the air filter, but not recently. Once the throttle bodies were removed I could the filth inside, with a film of oil. So a clean out there, and the airbox, then a re-balance & TPS set, (let's keep the learning curve steep) will hopefully solve that problem too.

While organising & waiting for the special tools to be finished & a few more parts to arrive, I've been cleaning & preparing. More to do, but other commitments have slowed to impetus. Expect to be back on the boil Monday.

[Muzz]

  Bump

[ohiorider]

Thanks for the pictures.   OK, you've got 73,000 miles on it--are you planning to check the valves or maybe re-condition the head?  Or have you decided the valves are ok as is?   

I'm curious how long we can expect the valves on a modern small block to last.   Can't seem to get a good answer. 

I seem to recall that on the BMW airheads, you would start thinking of a valve job around the 75,000 to 100,000 mile mark.  But for all I know, BMW airhead valve service intervals are not comparable to a modern Guzzi, which may use different materials, better lubrication, different design, etc.

FYI - I ran my R100GS out to 128,000 miles, not kilometers, on the OEM valves, guides, and valve springs.  That may be more miles than most Beemer owners push their heads.  I replaced the components with Black Diamond valves and guides, BMW springs.  I'm now at 147,000 miles.  Now, how close were my valves to failing ..? ....... I don't know.  I have pics of the intake and exhaust valves, and to me, the valves look beat.  But they ran just fine.

 (Note) I've owned this bike since new, so I have the complete service history on it.

[malik]

Found the circlip pliers (for a wonder they were where I thought they were supposed to be) & removed the clutch cup & the sprung plate.



The special tools arrived. The socket had been topped & bottomed by one of the guys in the complex ($50) and the welder took the request the make them long to heat & this is what we got ($50)







Here's a pic of the tools in situ - we found it easier to have the gearbox on its side, and use the floor to rest the spline tool. After de=peening the nut, it came off easier than expected.



A few taps with the hammer & the bellmouth came off easily



To remove the nut on the main shaft, the clutch shaft was removed from the bellmouth, inserted into its usual place & help with the spline tool. This nut also had to be de-peened.

The bolts on the rear cover were removed, the eccentric screw marked & removed & the neutral indicator removed.



Then the fun started - the rest of the day was spent trying to separate the rear cover from the central cover, tapping, hammering, belting, swearing, resting, wondering, rabbitting on, more swearing, then it got to beer o'clock & a plan was hatched - Bring a bigger hammer tomorrow.

Next morning, armed with the big rubber mallet, tapping all around the gasket and around & around it slowly & gently released itself.





Like Nick, Muzz & Nola, we also read the Guzzi manual & avidly watched the Guzzi video again & again, "but there is no way in hell" to remove the selector plate without undoing ALL the bolts securing the gear castle to cover & lifting the selector drum. We tried. There seems to be 2 or 3 more bolts (5mm) than Nick, Muzz & Nola mention in their Breva article, but they are obvious. Fairly warned by these guys, we had tried unsuccessfully to source the necessary long-handled t-bar 4 & 5mm allen keys - until we asked a neighbour -"use my guy", he says, "here's his number". Phone call duly made - "got just the thing - in stock at the warehouse. I'll drop them off tomorrow for you" And up turned the 2 t-bar allen keys, 200mm long with ball joints, made by Bondhaus. $20 each. And the balls were a very tight fit & at 200mm they all went in straight. Easy when you have the right tool.

So with the selector plate out - there was the rest of the offending article.



The other half of the spring had been loose inside the gearbox for 35,000km & other than the break, not a mark on it.

The new spring went on easily - we followed the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT6VAm0jJiY), and the reassembly commenced. An inordinate amount of care was taken to ensure that the selector plate, the spring & the eccentric screw were properly aligned. We believe we got it right.

The old gaskets were removed & the case surfaces cleaned (takes longer to do than say), bolt threads cleaned, and the covers bolted on. The nut on the main gearshaft had only a little bit left for peening, but enough. The nut on the clutch shaft had loads 3.5mm - don't know whether it was the new seal, or the special tools with long arms fooled the Nm guage in the wrist, but it looks good.



And so here we are - progress. Next it the clutch & the mating of the two parts.

[malik]

A couple of photos seemed to have been lost. I find them interesting, you may too.

[Muzz]

The inside of that box looks pretty black. Perhaps because mine has been apart a couple of times it has not had time to go black.

That is the first spring I have known to have broken on the smallblock box Mal.

[malik]

ALL the boxes are coated black both outside & inside. We figured that Guzzi paints/coats the cases before machining the mating surfaces. In the bell housing the black has turned a little brown, elsewhere in the gearbox all is the same colour as the outside.

Thankfully broken gearshift return springs seems to be uncommon. I have come across it before on the interweb. I think Johnny at Motociclo may have done one, but not sure. There would have to be some, because there's at least one video. There's a lot of work involved to replace a $5 part. I glad I had another reason to go at least as far as the clutch - well the gearbox almost - that pushrod oil seal was looking a bit ratty and that lives in the rear end of the clutch shaft. If the spring hadn't been broken I wouldn't have gone any further. My education would then still be sadly incomplete & I wouldn't have had the excuse to acquire those 2 proper allen keys. When I have to do something with the gears, it will be a lot less daunting. Come to think of it, the 1100 Sport's clutch slips a little & it has that fifth gear whine ......