New motor for my '13 Norge!

[samfrank]

A big shout out to Phil at Cleveland Moto where I bought this bike new. It was determined that Piaggio would replace this motor under warranty.  While out riding late last summer, after an all days ride, I was experiencing the red triangle warning light. It would come on and go off and come on again.  Shortly there after, at a stop, I noticed a serious oil leak coming from high up on the left cylinder.  I got it home on the trailer and then to Cleveland Moto. At first Phil thought it was a bad oil sending switch then a lambda sensor. These were changed out but the issues prevailed. After discussion with corporate it was determined that a new motor would be placed under warranty. After all is said and done Phil believes it was from running the motorcycle in the way too hot zone.  I have over 15k miles on it. It was also HIGHLY recommended to run nothing higher than 89 octane on this model here in the US.
Anyway, just want to send kudos to this dealership for putting the customer first.

[Gliderjohn]

I am a bit confused. Where did the actual oil leak turn out to be? Why was the new motor needed? Ran out of oil? That would be one hell of a leak. Please explain the reasoning behind using the lower octane fuel in the US. I almost always run what is rated as premium fuel at 91. Been okay for 13,000 miles so far. Glad your issues were resolved to your satisfaction.
GliderJohn

[Cool Runnings]

Warning sticker said No E-85.

I've been running 93 octane?

HELP, what the heck do us yanks run in these things....

[samfrank]

When it comes to things mechanical in nature I always rely on the experts. The leak was up high. Between the valve cover and jug (?). I suppose from being so hot there could have been a phase change in the aluminum parts there by opening a seal/gasket(?). The 93 octane burns too hot thus causing issues with the plugs perhaps. Maybe Phil will see this and chime in.

[Daniel Kalal]

The 93 octane burns too hot

no...

[George_S]

no...

Agree. Also, what do they mean by running in the hot zone? Are they kind of pointing a finger of blame on the owner? Unless his address is Death Valley, seems a bit unfair.

[beetle]

Bee Ess of the highest order. Always run the highest octane with lowest ethanol content. If anyone suggests otherwise, chastise them rigorously.

[pete roper]

If the machine is throwing up a service error then whatever is causing it should be visible in the OBD or, for a bit more info, on PADS. An oil leak will not throw up a service warning until the sump is empty and you'd have to be covered head to toe in oil and slip-sliding all over the place to get to that stage!

The oil pressure switch lives in the valley so a leak from there is not going to manifest itself up high on the motor. I have had a couple of porous head castings but a more likely candidate here would seem to be a leaky o-ring on the spark plug tube betwixt cambox and head, the breather cover on the back of the head or a leaky breather hose itself.

If the bike was running fine apart from the service warning and the oil leak I really can't understand why it was decided a complete new engine was appropriate but I'm glad it's sorted, at least I hope it is.

Pete

[charlie b]

Run the lowest octane gas that does not make it ping/knock.

Lower octane has higher energy content than high octane.  Will give marginally better power and mileage.....but.... if your high octane contains a different amount of ethanol, then run whatever has the lowest ethanol.  Some brands also claim a different

E85 never.  I've not seen that stuff in these parts.

Unless you heard a lot of pinging/knocking then gas was not to blame for running hot.

I'd love to see the inside of that engine, at least inside the oil pan.

[samfrank]

Agree. Also, what do they mean by running in the hot zone? Are they kind of pointing a finger of blame on the owner? Unless his address is Death Valley, seems a bit unfair.

To me that was the implication. How ever it happened the motor was overheated. It's not like I'm new to motorcycling. I just wanted to share my experience with the forum. Please don't shoot the messenger.  a

[beetle]

Agree on the ethanol part Mark , but a low compression ditch pump runs just fine on 87 RON . In fact, low compression engines tend to make more power on swill 

We're not talking about a low compression ditch pump. We're talking 8V. Highest octane, lowest ethanol content. 'Nuff said.

[beetle]

Run the lowest octane gas that does not make it ping/knock.

Lower octane has higher energy content than high octane.  Will give marginally better power and mileage...

Rubbish. Different octane ratings will not produce different power or mileage.



Edit: Just read Dusty's last post. He knows the truth.

[Xlratr]

High octane gasoline doesn't burn any hotter than low octane . Or produce more power , or burn cleaner , or increase fuel mileage , or make you anymore attractive to potential mates .

 Dusty

That is unfortunately true. Even when I put in 102 octane I can't even make eye contact!
:-)

[kingoffleece]

My understanding is that all gas is the same for energy potential.  Higher octane allows a higher compression which, if designed into the engine specs, will allow more power to be made.  It's always been explained to me that the motor must be designed for the compression-whatever it is-and the gas is then specified for that design.

[beetle]

^^^^^^^^

What KOF said.

[Cool Runnings]

Bee Ess of the highest order. Always run the highest octane with lowest ethanol content. If anyone suggests otherwise, chastise them rigorously.

Thx, what I figured. No way am I running 'regular' in an air cooled V-twin that puts out 100 hp.

[canuguzzi]

"It was also HIGHLY recommended..."

Can you pls clear that up? Exactly who said not to run higher than 89 octane? Was it the dealer, someone else or a manufacturer rep?

Not targeting the messenger.

If its a manufacturer rep then that should be more than word of mouth because the manual clearly states a minimum of unleaded  90 octane in the USA meaning its a requirement. A different recommendation ought to have someone's name behind it (if it is an official recommendation from Piaggio) or it isn't worth much.

Bringing this up because you can bet there are now more than a few Norge owners thinking "Hmmm, maybe I'll start...".

I'm thinking that if you said you were using less than 90 octane all the time, maybe Piaggio would be saying quite different because they could point to using a lesser grade of fuel than prescribed.

Who among us would put 10w30 oil in the Norge except gods 5%?

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Norge Pilot:
"Who among us would put 10w30 oil in the Norge except gods 5%?"

Hell no, not 10w30 but 20w-50. It's worked for years in my T-3. LOL
GliderJohn

[beetle]

Concur with NP. The Norge manual states a minimum of 90 PON.

[Arizona Wayne]

Concur with NP. The Norge manual states a minimum of 90 PON.

It's not that simple.  At higher altitudes you can't even buy 90 PON.  Air density is a factor too.  The bikes timing also automatically adjusts for this type of thing.  Compression-altitude-timing all adapt to the conditions at hand.

[beetle]

Well dang Mark , now my feelings are hurt , thought I was saying the same thing . OK , my emos are on vacation again LOL  Tough having a conversation with some of you smart guys

Didn't you read my edited post after your 'let the flaming begin' post? 

[oldbike54]

Didn't you read my edited post after your 'let the flaming begin' post?

 OK OK , you got me there  I do enjoy it when you smart guys get involved in our Plebeian conversations . Interesting to read Pete's input re the oil leak , guess really the main thing here is to appreciate Phil's efforts and to learn what we may to prevent this from happening again .

 Dusty

 Oh , and dispelling myths is good also 

  Dusty

[beetle]

It's not that simple.  At higher altitudes you can't even buy 90 PON.  Air density is a factor too.  The bikes timing also automatically adjusts for this type of thing.  Compression-altitude-timing all adapt to the conditions at hand.

Yes it is. OP was told to use a max of 87 octane. Manual says 90.  The point is he was advised to go against the manufacturer's requirements. You're just complicating the issue.

[oldbike54]

Yes it is. OP was told to use a max of 87 octane. Manual says 90.  The point is he was advised to go against the manufacturer's requirements. You're just complicating the issue.

 OK , now is a good time time to clear something up for me . Pete and I had a discussion re knock sensors on Guzzis , help me out here , my understanding is that MG has never used any form of knock sensor . Is this wrong ? Did I misunderstand Pete ?

 Dusty

[beetle]

There's no knock sensor. The ECU can change the timing based on certain conditions, but that has to do with temperature etc, not fuel used.

[Xlratr]

It's not that simple.  At higher altitudes you can't even buy 90 PON.  Air density is a factor too.  The bikes timing also automatically adjusts for this type of thing.  Compression-altitude-timing all adapt to the conditions at hand.

Some (few) motor management systems with knock sensors can adjust parameters to take advantage of higher octane fuel. But my Stelvio can't! It *can* adjust the amount of fuel to compensate for differences in air density (altitude). Compression is not adaptable though 

[oldbike54]

There's no knock sensor. The ECU can change the timing based on certain conditions, but that has to do with temperature etc, not fuel used.

 Thanks Mark .
 
 Dusty

[LowRyter]

what ever the problem, I would wager that the fuel has nothing to do with it.  High octane, low octane (so long as it's 90 RON), ethanol, no ethanol. Blaming the fuel is BS.

I know that the Norge computer isn't programmed for E85 but NASCAR and Indy Cars run on the stuff.  And Indy Cars used to run 100% Methanol. 

[canuguzzi]

High altitude just clouds the concern. Is the Norge being ridden only at high altitudes?

Its really simple, either there is a requirement change from the manufacturer or there isn't. If the manufacture made the recommendation then that would go for all Norges using the 8V or did they make a special requirement for this one Norge.

For once, can we bypass all the tangents and deal with points to some end without this and that twist and before some needs to start talking about ...?

There is an implied relationship between higher than 89 octane and an 8V engine running itself empty of oil to the point of destruction requiring replacement, somehow that simply doesn't add up.

If it does add up then everyone following the fuel requirement that is "in writing" is doing it wrong.

There are a lot of unanswered questions. The bike stopped running, red triangle...how much oil got pumped out? How long did it take (no way that much oil leaks and you don't know it).

These are questions to OP can easily answer.

So:

1. Who made the recommendation for the 89 octane?
2. How long was oil leaking from the engine?
3. How much (guesstimate) oil leaked out before it stopped?
4. Did you check the oil level when it stopped running?
5. Did you pull any error codes afterward?

OP?

[Two Checks]

Sorry, na$car uses E15, not E85.