O2 Optimizer on 2V Norge

[pete roper]

Sorry Larry, like Mark I can't offer any input as I am not familiar with either the engine or the engine management system of the machine in question.

Pete

[Lcarlson]

OK -- thx Pete. Appreciate the response.

[RANDM]

Larry,
Yes, the AX-FieD was developed from Roger's data by
Nightrider and works with the standard narrowband sensor.
It's not as accurate as the Wideband but works well and is
less complicated allowing a plugnplay fitting for us ordinary
people.
The Bosch ECU runs differently to most others from what
Roger said.

Beetle,
Yes, that's the basis of what Roger found - the LM-1 is a
wideband programmable with a simulated analog output
for the ECU. He was quite exhaustive in his testing, trying
Lots of things and providing data and charts so you could
see what was happening.
The PCV and Dobeck stuff worked but were clumsy compared
To the standard maps ect which were pretty well worked out.
So the answer was to change the AFR point that the sensor
was reading, changing what the ECU saw as normal and leave
The rest alone.

Maurie.

[Xlratr]

Which is also one of the reasons I believe that the 'Target' AFR's you aim for are often a far cry from what are always touted as the theoretical ideal? It was one of the things I learnt early on when looking at lambda readings on a dyno and comparing them with plug readings. It was obvious that despite what the technology was telling me what was happening within the combustion chamber was far from *Ideal*. For those that doubt? If you accept that charge transition is going to contribute to lower VE also consider what the 'Missing' charge is going to do to the lambda readings in the exhaust pipe......

Pete

But is the 8v really so inefficient? I don't know because I haven't seen any numbers on VE, but here are a couple of things to ponder..

1) The Stelvio is equipped with 2 sensors that rely on exactly those AFR values to steer the fueling in standard trim. How could they work correctly if charge transission is mucking up the readings so much? And how would an 8v be able to comply with emmission standards?

2) I rode 1000km up through Austria and Germany last year together with with a friend on an BMW 1200GS. It was a mix of highway and back roads. My Stelvio is set up to run with an AFR of 13.4 in most conditions and the BMW is standard closed loop. (The Stelvio ran beautifully, and my friend was less than happy with the fueling on his GS, but that's a different story). The interesting thing was that I used exactly 9% more fuel than my friend. That is exactly the difference between an AFR of 13.4:1 and 14.7:1. That suggests to me that the AFR readings I use to set the bike up are quite accurate, and not too much can be lost to charge transition. Either that or the BMW is equally inefficient.
The fact that the Stelvio was less economical is not relevant because that is a consequence I chose to accept when I set the bike up like that. And the plugs look perfect.

So yes, in general I do believe in the value of AFR readings.

[Lcarlson]

Larry,
Yes, the AX-FieD was developed from Roger's data by
Nightrider and works with the standard narrowband sensor.
It's not as accurate as the Wideband but works well and is
less complicated allowing a plugnplay fitting for us ordinary
people.
The Bosch ECU runs differently to most others from what
Roger said.

Beetle,
Yes, that's the basis of what Roger found - the LM-1 is a
wideband programmable with a simulated analog output
for the ECU. He was quite exhaustive in his testing, trying
Lots of things and providing data and charts so you could
see what was happening.
The PCV and Dobeck stuff worked but were clumsy compared
To the standard maps ect which were pretty well worked out.
So the answer was to change the AFR point that the sensor
was reading, changing what the ECU saw as normal and leave
The rest alone.

Maurie.

Cool.

[beetle]

Maurice, it may come

Beetle,
Yes, that's the basis of what Roger found - the LM-1 is a
wideband programmable with a simulated analog output
for the ECU. He was quite exhaustive in his testing, trying
Lots of things and providing data and charts so you could
see what was happening.
The PCV and Dobeck stuff worked but were clumsy compared
To the standard maps ect which were pretty well worked out.
So the answer was to change the AFR point that the sensor
was reading, changing what the ECU saw as normal and leave
The rest alone.

Maurie.

Thanks Maurie. I checked out the Nightrider site, but there are no technical details that I could find. IMO it's still boils down to an O2 fooler, albeit more sophisticated than the likes of the FatDuc et al. Well, at least the shiny website and self promotion blurb intimates as much. I still would advise caution, as the narrowband sensors have a quite slow response. Added with the crude 'more/less' trimming method, if one wasn't careful with the the settings, one could still over fuel.

The Bosch and Delphi ECU's may well have a more sophisticated way of trimming, and it may work well with them.

[PJPR01]

For the map experts

My Norge is a 2008 2V with 25k miles on it...had it since new.

It has exceptionally smooth acceleration, no hiccup or catch in the throttle response at all from start to wide open under all conditions, cold, warm, boiling hot and everything in between..  Never had any issues with any flat spots or stickiness in the throttle.  Since day 1, it has always had a pleasing deceleration pop pop pop, and I've always kept the tuning totally stock, never loaded any maps of any sort except stock, and has been lovingly cared for by MPH for its whole life.  I easily get about 44 mpg riding around here in Houston on day trips or even multi day trips out of state.

So my question is:  Is there a different map that can keep the mpg, keep the existing smoothness in acceleration and yet get rid of the decel, or is it possible that any variation of the existing map will bring downsides to my mpg and smooth throttle response in exchange for eliminating the decel pop?

Thanks!

[pete roper]

Getting rid of the popping on deceleration is very easy. The reason it occurs is because unlike most systems the Guzzi maps don't completely chop fuel on a negative throttle. This means that as the engine slows down on the over-run there will be points where the mixture won't burn every cycle. Instead the unburnt fuel and air mix is expelled into the exhaust pipe where, the next time the mixture does ignite in the combustion chamber and the hot exhaust gasses are expelled into the pipe through the opening exhaust valve, it ignites there creating the backfiring.

To get rid of it all that needs to be done is to chop the fuel completely at 4.8 TPS until, well, Mark I believe feeds it back in at 2,750 by which time the engine isn't pumping so hard that the mixture is incombustible. If no fuel is being delivered at these low TPS settings then there is nothing to burn in the pipe and consequently no 'Pop'!

Pete

[PJPR01]

Thanks Pete...a couple of follow up questions based on that.

What exactly is TPS?  Throttle Position Sensor perhaps?

If the fuel is chopped to eliminate the popping, does that mean I would notice more engine braking when my throttle is closed?

Much appreciated!

[twowings]

"My Norge is a 2008 2V with 25k miles on it...had it since new.

It has exceptionally smooth acceleration, no hiccup or catch in the throttle response at all from start to wide open under all conditions, cold, warm, boiling hot and everything in between..  Never had any issues with any flat spots or stickiness in the throttle.  Since day 1, it has always had a pleasing deceleration pop pop pop, and I've always kept the tuning totally stock, never loaded any maps of any sort except stock, and has been lovingly cared for by MPH for its whole life.  I easily get about 44 mpg riding around here in Houston on day trips or even multi day trips out of state."



That's good to hear....I just bought the same thing and hope it runs like yours...

[pete roper]

Thanks Pete...a couple of follow up questions based on that.

What exactly is TPS?  Throttle Position Sensor perhaps?

If the fuel is chopped to eliminate the popping, does that mean I would notice more engine braking when my throttle is closed?

Much appreciated!

Yes, throttle position sensor and you may notice a slight increase in engine braking. I don't really notice it but you can feel the fuel come back in at 2,750.

Pete

[PJPR01]

Ok...thanks again Pete...I'll check to see if the good folks at MPH can make this tweak.   

[beetle]

If you'd rather not cut the fuel and increase engine braking, adding extra fuel in 2500-3500 range at TPS values of 4.6-5.2 can accomplish the same anti-pop effect.

[Xlratr]

For the map experts

My Norge is a 2008 2V with 25k miles on it...had it since new.
....
 I easily get about 44 mpg riding around here in Houston on day trips or even multi day trips out of state.

That's only slightly better than the "slurping" 2v Norge Pete tested with the o2 modifier, and about the same as my charge transition plagued Stelvio in good weather.
 
Just kiddin' you folks down under! 

[Jerryd]

Ok...thanks again Pete...I'll check to see if the good folks at MPH can make this tweak.   

Hey Paul,

Thanks for jumping in. As the one who started this thread, I'm looking for answers. Apparently I need to remove the O2 Optimizer and start over. Like you, my old '07 Norge ran perfectly after it was relashed at the Malibu MGNOC Rally., and had no add-on's . I 'd like to get back to that point again with the '08 Norge I just picked up.

I'm a rider not a tinkerer, and the stock performance of the bike was more then sufficient to meet my needs.

Please let me know what MPH says. I've bought 2 bikes there!

Thanks

Jerry

[pete roper]

John, a fairly well whipped 1200 Sport 2V I enquired about, owned by a mate, returns very low fives and often dips into the fours. That is with a full load of gear for touring and a stupid loud pipe on but a custom map.

I'm not saying that AFR figures should be ignored. Simply that they are only one of a whole armoury of tools that can be used for tuning and diagnosis purposes and ALL the results need to be looked at holistically and scrutinised through a maleable lens. There are so many factors at work effecting how an engine breathes and its consequent performance that sheeting home behaviour to one simple formula is pointless.

Pete

[Xlratr]

Yep. Let's agree on that! 
I'm off to do some riding now. First great day of the year. The sky is blue and it's warm.
Have a great day everyone!

[Jerryd]

This is what you guys sound like to me

 https://www.facebook.com/1626076704335831/videos/1653873904889444/

[Chuck in Indiana]

differential doodle spring

[beetle]

I check my capacitive duractance regularly.   

[Xlratr]

This is what you guys sound like to me

 https://www.facebook.com/1626076704335831/videos/1653873904889444/

Brilliant!

[RANDM]

Maurice, it may come

Thanks Maurie. I checked out the Nightrider site, but there are no technical details that I could find. IMO it's still boils down to an O2 fooler, albeit more sophisticated than the likes of the FatDuc et al. Well, at least the shiny website and self promotion blurb intimates as much. I still would advise caution, as the narrowband sensors have a quite slow response. Added with the crude 'more/less' trimming method, if one wasn't careful with the the settings, one could still over fuel.

The Bosch and Delphi ECU's may well have a more sophisticated way of trimming, and it may work well with them.

The actual thread with the test Data is to be found on
Adventure Rider, I can dig up the thread title tomorrow
if you'd like.

Anyway it's only a point of interest between the different
ECU's not meant to sidetrack anything.

Maurie.

[Wayne Orwig]

This is what you guys sound like to me

 https://www.facebook.com/1626076704335831/videos/1653873904889444/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUflk0NAFeo

[canuguzzi]

I check my capacitive duractance regularly.   

As soon as I added a bolloid capacitive laminator to my Norge it got 60 mpg when fully loaded with fanametric hutzpah.

[JeffOlson]

^

[bad Chad]

Ok here is what the one tuned from the factory for my B1100 is set at.

Switch 1,5,7,8 on.  All others off.

[PJPR01]

Hey Paul,

I'm a rider not a tinkerer, and the stock performance of the bike was more then sufficient to meet my needs.  Please let me know what MPH says. I've bought 2 bikes there!

Thanks

Jerry

  Will do Jerry...just got it back with a few new farkles installed and the regular 6k maintenance, so will head back that way and see if Larry can adjust the TPS to the recommended setting and see what that does. 

[pete roper]

  Will do Jerry...just got it back with a few new farkles installed and the regular 6k maintenance, so will head back that way and see if Larry can adjust the TPS to the recommended setting and see what that does.

It's not a physical or even electronic *Adjustment* that can be made with any of the stock diagnostic tooling. It requires the map to be downloaded, modified and reloaded using a program like Tunerpro for the mod and GD *Reader* and *Writer* for the download and upload. It's not the TPS that is adjusted. It is the fuel delivery at certain TPS values that is changed.

Pete

[PJPR01]

Oh!  Ok...that clarifies it then, thanks again Pete.  Some software and HW to purchase then if one desires to tweak the TPS. 

Are there multiple versions of this software, I've seen a couple people selling on the forum, do they all sell a different version or are they all distributing the same MAP adjusting software/HW kit?

Thanks!

[pete roper]

Oh!  Ok...that clarifies it then, thanks again Pete.  Some software and HW to purchase then if one desires to tweak the TPS. 

Are there multiple versions of this software, I've seen a couple people selling on the forum, do they all sell a different version or are they all distributing the same MAP adjusting software/HW kit?

Thanks!

Do a search for Mark's, (Beetle.) Guzzidiag for beginners thread. It is comprehensive and has links to what you'll need to buy and download.

Pete