ABS removal

[twowings]

FWIW, the new GTD class in the WeatherTech Cup series is based on the European GT3 specs and allow the use of ABS...the GTLM class (much faster cars without ABS) drivers are now complaining that the GTD guys can drive deeper (on the brakes later and harder) into the corners than GTLM cars can...maybe doesn't translate to bikes but some food for thought, anyway...

[pikipiki]

I thought the point of ABS was to allow your to steer while braking.
Just putting in my two cents worth.

[atavar]

I thought the point of ABS was to allow your to steer while braking.
Just putting in my two cents worth.

That is one of the top level talking points, but it is nothing you cannot achieve on your own with skill, training and practice.  People have been braking during turns for as long as there have been motorcycles.
That generalized fear ranks right up there with "Don't use the front brake, it will throw you over the handlebars.."

[Kev m]

I thought the point of ABS was to allow your to steer while braking.
Just putting in my two cents worth.

Well, the POINT is to prevent a loss of control/crash which comes with wheel lock up during braking. So to some extent yes it does help you still control the vehicle meaning maintain steering control. But don't lose sight of the that purpose is "better braking".

[SmithSwede]

I've probably said this before in another thread, but I'm personally pretty ambivalent about ABS.  Or at least the ABS systems I've had personal experience with. 

Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of occasions in which an ABS system would permit me to stop faster than if I had been on a similar bike without ABS.   For example, I tested an 05 Yamaha FJR with ABS a fair bit on a long driveway at the place I lived, which in the fall would be covered with deep, wet, slimy rotting pecan leaves.  The ABS would cycle like crazy, and I would stop faster than I would have expected.  Without ABS, my front braking would have been pretty cautious.   On the other hand, I've never actually had to stop hard in these sorts of conditions, so this ABS benefit is a bit theoretical. 

But I have had the ABS scare me numerous times in the real world when it wouldn't permit me to stop when I knew I could stop on a non-ABS system.  A previous poster mentioned gravel roads.   Yes, been there, done that.   The worse was descending a reasonably steep graveled road that intersected with a paved main highway.   I was already going down the gravel road when I realized that there was an on-coming car on the paved road that would probably hit me if I didn't slow my descent.  ABS on BMW F800 wouldn't permit me to do what I wanted, but instead "helped" me by constantly releasing the brakes.   Very scary--and I wasn't too keen on the ABS system.

Similar situation regularly arose with several urban roads on my daily commute that had a lot of bumps and heaves just before a stop sign.  On my non-ABS bikes, I could safety stop before the sign with no drama.  If I wanted to push it a bit, I could safety stop very quickly over those bumps, with the tires chirping and hopping a bit.   

But when I would do the exact same thing on the ABS equipped BMW, it would always release the front brakes for an amazingly long period of time, and I would just sail towards the sign.  Again, very scary, and not what I wanted.  And ironically, it meant I was more concerned and cautious about being able to stop when riding the ABS bike, compared to my other non-ABS bikes. 

Finally, I think a lot of people fail to fully appreciate the fundamental fact that an ABS system does not increase the traction available to you in a low traction environment.   It simply attempts to help you make the most of what you have.  But what that means is that the wise man will have already SLOWED WAY DOWN when confronted with rain, wet leaves, etc.   It won't do you any good if you can't stop in time with the ABS because traction is diminished--all the ABS did was make sure you arrived at the scene of the crash upright.   But you still hit the object. 

So I think you are definitely better off being very aware of compromised traction and the need to freaking slow down, as opposed to blithely trusting the ABS to save you bacon.

And yes, I agree it's probably even better to be aware, slow down, and also have a good ABS system. 

And yes, it's entirely possible that ABS systems on other bikes are better.  Or that the technology is getting better.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well considered.  Naturally, I agree.

[Zoom Zoom]

The 07 has the button as well
[/quoteYeah, couldn't help but notice that after 8 years

Huzo, firstly, I was simply commenting to the person I quoted that the 07 had the same button.
 
Furthermore, you did not indicate in your original post how long, or how familiar, you were with the bike. For all we knew, you recently bought it.

So, that begs the question: Why throw any money at something that you can turn off or free at your discretion?

Now, I would assume you are aware that ABS in and of itself, is more a traction aid rather than a braking aid. It is supposed to keep the wheels from locking up based on available traction during braking. I'll leave it at that as I already have read other responses to this, and yes, I owned an 07 norge for some time myself.

John Henry

[GearheadGrrrl]

The ABS on the BMW F800's is known for over aggressively reducing braking on the back wheel, especially when going over bumps. On the other hand, the ABS and traction control on my Yamaha Super Tenere is fantastic- just aim it, twist the throttle or squeeze the brakes as desired, and the electronics will sort it all out and take care of you. ABS is a good thing, especially on vehicles like motorcycles that go down if the front wheel is locked for not even a second.

[Groover]

Very educational thread. I've never ridden a bike with ABS, now I know what to expect when I do. Seems to me that we're in a transitional period era with this, but I'd say in another decade or so most riders will have been exposed to ABS in motorcycles, perhaps ABS will get better too, and it will be normal and non ABS bikes will feel awkward and unsafe then. The scale will eventually tip over.

A little like traction control on cars. I disliked it for years in my manual transmission car, then i learned how to work with it and now I mostly love it and couldn't imagine not having it (in rain or winters especially). It is nice to be able to turn it off/on with a press of a button however in those instances where I absolutely know it will hinder having it enabled.

What really scares me now as a motorcyclist, are new cars that are on the market with Automatic Braking when objects are detected. I definitely will be increasing my spacing when riding behind cars knowing that technology is out there!

[ohiorider]

Ahhhh!  Reading this is like discovering the fountain of youth.  I haven't read a thread or article like this since BMW introduced ABS for motorcycles in 1988 on the K100RS/ABS.  Thanks to many of you for momentarily taking me back in time 25 years or more.

[Huzo]

Just a little bump on an old thread.
Some of the comments might be worth taking on board in conjunction with the “ABS - essential or not” thread..

[Perazzimx14]

Just a little bump on an old thread.
Some of the comments might be worth taking on board in conjunction with the “ABS - essential or not” thread..

Last month remove the failed servo/ABS from a 2005 R1200GS. $3,000 for a new unit was not in the cards. Two brake line jumpers and remove the computer from the servo/ABS pump and build a 4" square back panel for it. Took about 6 hours and $25 in tools and material now I could do it in 1/2 the time or less and for about $6 in material.

All I lost was the ABS function but still had really good non-ABS brakes

[Murray]

I assume you don't have any kind of regular roadworthy inspection scheme where you are.

[Perazzimx14]

I assume you don't have any kind of regular roadworthy inspection scheme where you are.

Sure do. Annual state safety inspection. In my State like most Motorcycles  are not required to have functional ABS

[Murray]

Sure do. Annual state safety inspection. In my State like most Motorcycles  are not required to have functional ABS

However if the factory fitted it would it not be a major safety system that would be expected to be functional? (may vary from region to region). Similar to emissions a 1970's vehicle needs to meet the emission of the era a 2000's need to meet 2000's standards.

[Huzo]

Would be good if these comments went onto the other ABS  “essential” thread.
Just bumped this old one to drag some insights into the here and now..

[Roebling3]

I may have missed it, but I've not seen a mention of abs routine required maintenance, including frequency, tools needed, etc.

abs saved my bacon yrs ago. -'93 k75s w/abs. Clove Lakes Expwy. Staten Is. NY. High speed commuter traffic - going home.
I was in the outside lane @ ~ 70 m/h with a generous bunch of space in front. A p/up carrying a wooden picnic table (w/attached benches), upside down, overhanging the cab roof, wanted to fill the several hundred feet of clear hiway in front of me. The driver left the cozy spot behind a trailer. In the newly acquired wind blast the table began to levitate. Cars were close behind me. The next lane over, on my right, was packed. I grabbed and stomped. The table stood up, spilled out and broke, into many pieces. I bumped over lots of wood, bolts and splinters, but stayed upright. W/in a few minutes you couldn't tell anything unusual had happened. Except for my sweat and still racing hear beatt. The p/up was gone.

Still I'm not fond of abs. What every mc should have is the best braking equipment available, sized for the app. Make those changes b4 blowing big bux on an exhaust system, lights or luggage.  R3~

[borderer]

Even the best rider will be caught out sometime, thats where ABS comes in to its own. Crazy to say you dont need to have it, If you ride well you will probabally never make it work, but there will be a time.....
Not bike related, Years ago when I was working in Motor racing there was a German stunt driver amazing Guy could do anything with a car. two wheels... multiple rotation spins and keep in the same direction etc etc. anyway he was Killed in a sportscar race after the pace car came out... just lost concentration and he was gone..

[GRGuzzi]

Many years ago (37), I was riding a yamaha xt 250 1982 model, I switched bikes with a friend riding a Suzuki gsx 250. Starting from a traffic light after 50 meters
one old guy suddenly decide to cross the road, I grab the front brake like I used to do on my bike, only that the front brake was a very strong disk.
 I avoid the old guy But after I was sliding on the road for 15 meters,

Then I started learning how to use disk brakes.
Now I ride a V7 ii, never feel the ABS pulsing except two times that on purpose brake hard on a slippery road, just to test that is working,

[Ryan]

The only way to activate ABS is to lock one of the wheels. If you could truly brake like Rossi, holding that ragged edge right before wheel lock-up, you would never experience what ABS felt like. The reality is that without ABS, you would lock or nearly lock, release a little pressure and come at it again, but I doubt you could do it 6 or more times a second. Since a skidding tire will take longer to stop than a tire at the edge of locking, your straight-line stopping distance in the real world with ABS chattering away ia not likely any longer than it would have been with your 2-3 foot skids as you jump on and off the brakes. Can I stop faster without activating ABS than I can if I do? Yes. Do road conditions (or my frame of mind/arthritis pain/caffeine level) always allow me to channel my inner Rossi when a deer shoots out? Nope. Nice to have when I am not at the top of my game. I find it easier to waffle the rear lever, let the computer sort that out, and I worry about modulating the front. I have only activated the front once on a little bit of road grit, but while it freaked my shit a bit I did easily maintain my braking level when the tire returned to clean pavement. Certainly no longer a stop than it would have been had I skidded across that spot, released, and then came back at it.

[Roebling3]

I've experienced Brembo radial MC's and calipers, w/out abs, on several bikes, plus my '17, V7 III racer. (converted shortly after purchase). Once tried you will never go back to what is on your stock, new or used bike. The difference in modulating braking affect on any surface is outstanding. There is no comparison to your previous experience w/stock systems.

I'll not go back to abs. I've had my share of problems, pita trouble shooting, maintenance and near crashes.   R3~

[Murray]

The only way to activate ABS is to lock one of the wheels.

Bike ABS doesn't work like car ABS.

[Ryan]

Bike ABS doesn't work like car ABS.

So what are the differences? Does it take lean angle into consideration and intervene sooner if you are dragging a knee? Does it intervene sooner, before lockup? Does it have to do with how road speed is compared to wheel speed at each end? My curiosity is piqued. For simplicity, can we compare the average car system to that on a Guzzi?

[Murray]

So what are the differences? Does it take lean angle into consideration and intervene sooner if you are dragging a knee? Does it intervene sooner, before lockup? Does it have to do with how road speed is compared to wheel speed at each end? My curiosity is piqued. For simplicity, can we compare the average car system to that on a Guzzi?

Pretty much all of what you suggested. A car will wait until the wheel ceases to rotate and depending on the system much older ones will release the pressure on multiple brakes latter ones will do it for the individual wheel. On a bike its a a combination of deceleration rate front vs rear wheel speeds and the point where the system thinks lockup is likely.

[Perazzimx14]

However if the factory fitted it would it not be a major safety system that would be expected to be functional? (may vary from region to region). Similar to emissions a 1970's vehicle needs to meet the emission of the era a 2000's need to meet 2000's standards.

Functional brakes are a requirement for the anual safety insection. Doesn't matter if they are traditonal or "enhanced" with ABS.

Since brakes "enhanced" with ABS is not a requirement the ABS does not have to be operational or even there.  As long as the brakes are operational the bike meets the minimum requirement.


Even if ABS was required how does the safety insection mechanic test it. Does he go out to the closed course behind the shop water down the test area then get the bike to speed and grab a handful of brakes too see if they lockup or modulate? Or do they just look for the idiot light on the dash to be illuminated? If it the latter (and they do) what does that prove? It only proves the light bulb is good.

[lucian]

Even if ABS was required how does the safety inspection mechanic test it. Does he go out to the closed course behind the shop water down the test area then get the bike to speed and grab a handful of brakes too see if they lockup or modulate? Or do they just look for the idiot light on the dash to be illuminated? If it the latter (and they do) what does that prove? It only proves the light bulb is good.

Here in Maine that's how they do it . If the abs light stays on when the bike is running you won't pass inspection.  I had to take the servo pump out of my friends K1200 and send it off to Module Master to be rebuilt . It was an almost 3,000 dollar part thru BMW.  It came back good as new for $400 incl. shipping with a two year warranty.
 They will do auto units as well.

[Bulldog9]

Huzo.. buy a1200 sport 4V. Same bike no ABS :-)

all kidding aside, I didn't know that the 2007 Norge had abs. As I posted in the other thread you started, I prefer non-abs bikes and why I will likely keep my 1200 sport for touring and the GRiSO for my day sport thuggish riding.

I'm sure that in a panic emergency situation we're all hope is lost and all bets are off the table PBS might provide an advantage but I prefer riding without it.

As you've probably surmised, I have no advice about how to disable the system. I am after all, only a 5-year gootsie novice :-)

[Milosh]

Here's some helpful information

https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/two-wheeler-and-powersports/riding-safety-systems/motorcycle-abs/

and KTM did a cool demonstration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M

And this quote:

According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the rate of fatal crashes is 31 percent lower for motorcycles equipped with optional anti-lock brakes than for the same models without them. If that’s not enough to convince you, here’s another number:

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety released another report noting that motorcycles with engines 250cc and higher without ABS are 37% more likely to be involved in a fatal crash.

from

https://www.motorcycle.com/features/why-you-need-abs-on-your-next-motorcycle.html

[Kiwi_Roy]

2007 seems to be the first year of ABS. perhaps it wasn't very refined.
Looking at the difference in these two schematics you should be able to figure out how it can be disabled.
You could start by just unbolting the pickups and progress from there, easy enough to re-instate it if you change your mind.

Without ABS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
With ABS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif
Actually if you look at the ECU Blue Connector Speed Sensor input 24, you would need that
I don't think the earlier Norge would have as many targets, the ABS card possibly scales its output 23 to match.
You could possibly wire one of the sensors direct to the ECU with a different No of targets on the rear (or front) wheel.

[moto-uno]

  Having just gone through most of the posts on this subject , it's painfully reminiscent  of the discussions years ago about "carbs vs fuel injection" , and
most of us know where that went  .  Peter