ABS removal

[Huzo]

Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !

[Dukedesmo]

I would say it is possible but surely ABS should be an advantage? but is there not some way of just switching it off - a fuse or something?

I would imagine more people would want to retrofit than remove if it was possible due to do so...

[jas67]

Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !

All you need is any brake components (including lines) that are different from a non-ABS bike (perhaps a Breva 1100 if all Norges had ABS).

[pat80flh]

I've never ridden an ABS bike, but on an automotive system, any fault, like a sensor, will shut down ABS, and  brake fluid will flow as normal- non ABS.  Pull the plug on the module and see what it does.

  A common complaint from people with ABS is "the car wouldn't stop".  One girl, swore her brakes failed, she went right through a stop sign in the snow. I interrogated her until I got her to admit when the ABS cycled, she lifted her foot, "cause the brakes felt funny".

 

[atavar]

I often shut the ABS on my '08 Norge off.  There are many situations where ABS is not an advantage.  The '08 has a button to disable the ABS on the left side of the fairing.   It has occasionally been handy in normal riding.  I suspect there is a fuse you could pull somewhere. 

[Arizona Wayne]

My `89 Dodge PU had ABS and it was always slower responding than me. If you really know how to ride/drive you don't need ABS.  ABS is for slackers.   

[atavar]

My `89 Dodge PU had ABS and it was always slower responding than me. If you really know how to ride/drive you don't need ABS.  ABS is for slackers.   

To a fairly large degree I agree with this.  Given skill and practice I may not be able to stop as straight without ABS, but I can almost always stop sooner. 
For people who do not want to practice panic stops and learn how to do them properly ABS is a godsend. Even for those though panic stops should be practiced so one knows what to expect.

[Huzo]

The last two posts put it best. I had to brake in the pouring rain and the abs said no. This meant I had to accelerate through the intersection to avoid pulling up half way through. If you shut the abs off, the yellow light on the panel fleshes incessantly, and it re sets next time you start. But thanks to the info I've got on the forum I think I'll leave well alone. Thank you all

[Huzo]

Yeah Avatar, mine's an '07 and the same setup

[kevdog3019]

I love my Guzzi linked set-up and generally wouldn't like this sort of thing. Both wheels braking at safe rates (no rear lock-up). It's the cats meow. I'm not a fan of abs either on my truck.

[Murray]

Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !

On most cars all you do is yank the fuse for the ABS pump the systems are designed in case of an ABS failure the brakes still work like normal brakes. Yes you'll probably get an idiot light on the dash for your trouble.

As others have said a lot of work to actually remove all the associated bits and pieces and do it neatly. When you go to sell the bike put the fuse back in and its won't have that molested by a shade tree mechanic thing about it.

[Kev m]

Ok some one needs to pull out some comparative test data on modern bikes and cars. Best stopping distances with professional operators with and without ABS.

I have a funny feeling it's gonna be very different from the anecdotal stories of antique Dodge PU's (was that even a 4-channel system back then) or blue averages.

I'm one who once thought I was better than the systems. And I've spent about a a decade with at least one ABS equipped bike in the fleet.

But I've come around in my thinking since ABS systems have gotten better and better. And having seen some people post data here over the years.

In interest of full disclosure I'll add that I've never really actuated the ABS on my bikes over the years despite some hard stops.  I'll also add that they've never caused me to extend any distances either.

Maybe there are some individual machines with problems or riders that need to adjust their riding for conditions more.

[canuguzzi]

I often shut the ABS on my '08 Norge off.  There are many situations where ABS is not an advantage.  The '08 has a button to disable the ABS on the left side of the fairing.   It has occasionally been handy in normal riding.  I suspect there is a fuse you could pull somewhere.

Yes, there are those times.

Downhill in gravel driveways. ABS let's the bike continue forward because the tires can slip and ABS kicks in. Turn ABS off and you can use the rear brake and if it locks the rear tire can plow just enough and slow a lot faster than with ABS.

Other than that I keep it on.

If you have a fuse for the ABS maybe wiring a toggle for it?

[charlie b]

I did activate the ABS on my Honda.  Three times.  Once because I just needed to stop before I hit the truck in front of me.  Twice because of sand on the road at the intersection.  If the ABS had not kicked in I probably would have slid through.  And, yes, I have made fast stops and a few 'panic' stops before, without ABS.  I'd rather have the ABS unless I am on a dirt road.

I suspect there are few situations on the street where many of you could 'beat' an ABS.  One is a bumpy area (like washboard), but, that is tough to judge because many people cannot stop 'fast' on a bumpy area either.

[Arizona Wayne]

The problem is........a not really competent MC rider thinks since their new bike has ABS they don't have to learn how to stop better in different conditions and totally rely on the ABS.  ABS gives them a false sense of security. 

[sib]

ABS gives them a false sense of security.

Like having a parachute when skydiving.  Back in the old days, we didn't need no stinkin' parachutes..

[Groover]

Abs removal? Easy... drink beer eat lots of pasta 

Oh, got it... ABS.. not Abdominals. Happy Friday everyone, just joking around.

[JoeW]

When trying to stop on slippery pavement, as soon as the front wheels stop rotating, there is no directional control. The purpose of ABS is to allow you to control your vehicle and steer around a hazard while braking. It does not make a vehicle stop faster. It will actually increase straight line stopping distance. I'm not sure I would want ABS on a bike, I do like it in my cars though but, I wish there was an off switch like the early systems had. Find the power wire to the module and install a toggle switch.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If I had ABS on the Mighty Scura one time out in the Socal canyons.. they'd probably still be wondering what happened to me, and where I was. I do not like it, Sam, I am..

[Kev m]

When trying to stop on slippery pavement, as soon as the front wheels stop rotating, there is no directional control. The purpose of ABS is to allow you to control your vehicle and steer around a hazard while braking. It does not make a vehicle stop faster. It will actually increase straight line stopping distance. I'm not sure I would want ABS on a bike, I do like it in my cars though but, I wish there was an off switch like the early systems had. Find the power wire to the module and install a toggle switch.

Actually I'm pretty sure this is a partial truth.

It generally only lengthens distances in instances where actual lockup could have been helpful (plowing in gravel, sand, or snow).

But again, we need data.

[Zoom Zoom]

I often shut the ABS on my '08 Norge off.  There are many situations where ABS is not an advantage.  The '08 has a button to disable the ABS on the left side of the fairing.   It has occasionally been handy in normal riding.  I suspect there is a fuse you could pull somewhere.

The 07 has the button as well.

ZZ

[canuguzzi]

Actually I'm pretty sure this is a partial truth.

It generally only lengthens distances in instances where actual lockup could have been helpful (plowing in gravel, sand, or snow).

But again, we need data.

Meaningful data might be hard to come by since the use of ABS even in the face of factual data already known is still interpreted differently by the individual.

Even with identical road conditions one rider will swear by ABS while another will maintain that with proper experience and training they can stop as well with no ABS.

There is some truth to that, ABS was designed to address the masses, not the well experienced and trained driver/riders.

From my understanding, ABS isn't a consistant application of braking whereas the well trained rider can get the tires to the very limit before slip which is where maximum braking takes place.

More and more, technologies are put in play to make up for deficiencies in overall riding or driving performance of the masses. There is little doubt that these technologies help a great deal but like many such things, it starts a dependency that accelerates the lack of good rider/driver training.

As we've seen, riders are taught to just depress the brake pedal as hard as possible and not let up in an emergency stop, they don't even know how to use brakes to lock the rear while moderating the front to swing the back end and slide if it means saving their lives, they just hold on and wait for impact. ABS makes that scenario almost impossible yet many of us learned that at a young age.

ABS has saved lives, a fact but so has good training the newer generation of riders rarely get.

Not an argument, just an observation.

[atavar]

Actually I'm pretty sure this is a partial truth.

It generally only lengthens distances in instances where actual lockup could have been helpful (plowing in gravel, sand, or snow).

But again, we need data.

ABS functions by disengaging the brake fluid pressure.  As regards stopping distance this will necessarily increase the distance traveled by reducing braking force if engaged.  Of course if the ABS is not activated braking will not be affected.

[Huzo]

The 07 has the button as well
[/quoteYeah, couldn't help but notice that after 8 years

[Kev m]

It's misleading to oversimplify ABS operation by focusing only on the system's ability to reduce pressure. That is only the tool the system uses to prevent wheel lockup. The more significant part of the system is that which measures wheel spin and uses the pressure modulation to control it.

Under most road conditions braking is most effective when the tire maintains contact with the road without sliding. Once a wheel locks and the tire slides over the road surface the friction coefficient drops and braking distances are increased.

The strongest and most efficient braking is threshold braking, bringing the tire to the point of lockup and maintaining it without locking.

ABS, by design, is computer regulated threshold braking.

It works by monitoring wheel spin and backing off brake pressure JUST ENOUGH to prevent wheel lockup.

In theory that's how the best human rider/driver would do it as well. Since there's no way for a human to tell they have reached the limits of traction without some sort of feedback (a chirping tire starting to slide and bite). At which point a human would have to reduce pressure as well.

The question is can a human be as precise as a machine in finding and maintaining that point through modulation.

Early automotive systems were indeed primitive and the industry has since learned a lot of lessons to improve their function.

It wasn't long into the history of automotive systems that even the best professional drivers couldn't beat the  performance of modern ABS systems.

I suspect we're there (or close) with modern motorcycle systems. Think about it, the manufacturers obviously have test data.  And if these systems were doing more harm than good the liability would be huge.

I would think data would be easy. Have professional riders perform multiple stops from a set speed both with and without ABS active. Compare best distances from both conditions.

I was under the impression someone posted such data last ring we debated this a few years ago.

[charlie b]

There is some truth to that, ABS was designed to address the masses, not the well experienced and trained driver/riders.

From my understanding, ABS isn't a consistant application of braking whereas the well trained rider can get the tires to the very limit before slip which is where maximum braking takes place.

If you inserted EXPERT rider instead of well trained I would agree.  99% (or more) of even the riders in this forum I would not put in that class.  There are too many riders who think they are better than they really are.

[pebra]

And we haven't even used the word "panic" yet.
In a lot of circumstances that would be an important factor in the equation.

[oldbike54]

 Kev , pretty sure someone did post some data on this subject . Some chose not to believe it 
The fact is , most braking distance data is generated by expert riders , you know , the guys that test motorbikes for a living , Canet , Ari Henning , the late Kevin Ash , and if memory serves the distances were very little different ABS on or off . Haven't had a braking related crash in years , in fact the last one was in 1979 when my T140V decided to leave its rear Lockheed disc brake actuated after the pedal had been released  (They were famous for this) Still , will bet money that ABS in its modern forms will prevent way more accidents than it will cause , even with experienced riders . Don't think most of us are capable of responding 1000 times a second 

 Dusty

[canuguzzi]

It's misleading to oversimplify ABS operation by focusing only on the system's ability to reduce pressure. That is only the tool the system uses to prevent wheel lockup. The more significant part of the system is that which measures wheel spin and uses the pressure modulation to control it.

Under most road conditions braking is most effective when the tire maintains contact with the road without sliding. Once a wheel locks and the tire slides over the road surface the friction coefficient drops and braking distances are increased.

The strongest and most efficient braking is threshold braking, bringing the tire to the point of lockup and maintaining it without locking.

ABS, by design, is computer regulated threshold braking.

It works by monitoring wheel spin and backing off brake pressure JUST ENOUGH to prevent wheel lockup.

In theory that's how the best human rider/driver would do it as well. Since there's no way for a human to tell they have reached the limits of traction without some sort of feedback (a chirping tire starting to slide and bite). At which point a human would have to reduce pressure as well.

The question is can a human be as precise as a machine in finding and maintaining that point through modulation.

Early automotive systems were indeed primitive and the industry has since learned a lot of lessons to improve their function.

It wasn't long into the history of automotive systems that even the best professional drivers couldn't beat the  performance of modern ABS systems.

I suspect we're there (or close) with modern motorcycle systems. Think about it, the manufacturers obviously have test data.  And if these systems were doing more harm than good the liability would be huge.

I would think data would be easy. Have professional riders perform multiple stops from a set speed both with and without ABS active. Compare best distances from both conditions.

I was under the impression someone posted such data last ring we debated this a few years ago.

Then what is the pulsing you feel in the pedal? I don't think the ABS maintains a constant pressure right to the limit of tire adhesion but takes it to start if slip and then modulates it.

Unless they've changed how it works (possible) you can find videos of ABS working which shows the tires reaching break free and then rotation.

Take a bike with ABS and apply full and hold the rear brake. You can feel the ABS, that would be pulsing, not constant pressure. Maybe something changed?

I know the Norge pulses. The fronts might work different but on a gravel road, the abs does not apply a near adhesion limit braking force, it pulses as it would have to.

I'm a bit confused. Is the ABS maintaining constant pressure just below the limit of tire breaking loose or is it modulating it just at the brink?

I'm asking because the driver would maintain constant pressure just below the skidding and change it only as the tires begin to slide again. It seems that the plusing I've felt on the Norge was very rapid but had a sort of pattern and didn't vary.

[Kev m]

I thought I described it, perhaps not sufficiently.

The pulsing IS modulation of the pressure, but don't get lost with the reduction of pressure. Each pulse you feel is a slight reduction followed by slight increase back to the point of lockup. That occurs faster than a human could react.

It is far more likely that if a human gets to the actual point of lockup that they will keep it locked longer and/or release it more than the ABS system.

Think about how people were taught to drive on ice, pumping the brakes. No way they can pump (modulate) as fast or as accurately as a computer.

And honestly, I think it is also far more likely that must just don't ever get anywhere near lockup in the first place, unless traction is compromised.