Older Small Bores - One Followed me Home

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have just started looking at small blocks.
Is the V65 the same as a Lario or is there a difference in engine type?
I think I read the Lario is a Heron head whatever that means

I am also looking at a V50, I presume it's just a smaller bore V65.

Is there any gotchas like chrome bores to be aware of?

What are the most desirable models?

[Matt]

Unlike the big bikes there are lots of variations in small blocks from model to model. The V50 Monza and V50III are the top of the pile IMO, the primary running gear difference is taller primary gearing on the Monza.
My V65 Lario was a hoot but every time I set the valves and saw the wonky forked rockers...never did trust them.
We did lots of touring miles on a V65sp, very valve-gap sensitive, it'll burn a valve quickly if you let them drift. DAMHIK
Dyna-S or the like is required, stock points are a really bad idea.

[injundave]

The V50 can be quite a nice little bike, especially when ridden hard on twisty roads where they will out-handle just about anything else. They have Heron heads, meaning the head has no combustion chamber in it. The top of the piston is recessed and this is where combustion takes place. The valves are vertical. I think the early ones had chrome bores but Nigusil came in later. I have a 1980 V50 which needed new barrels/pistons because the chrome was peeling.

You will find some info in Guzziology and workshop manuals are available.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I went and looked at this one tonight. The owner had built the exhaust, quite well done I thought

Does it look good value to you guys?
No dash or speedo
Needs new tires.
Chrome bores would certainly nix it for me.
Would be a lot of work to put back to stock though,
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/mcy/5507878275.html

[Tony/CT]

That model year had chrome bores!

[papercutout]

My 1979 V50 II doesn't appear to have chrome bores - I had the heads off about a month ago to make sure it was all OK (bike hasn't been on the road since 1997!).

Quirky looking bike. Exhaust looks well made, hopefully the rest of the guys work was to the same standard...

[Chuck in Indiana]

That model year had chrome bores!

Correct. Nickasil bores started with the mark II in '79. The 4 valve models are not Herons. They are pent roof, and breathe very well, indeed.. with an exhilarating rush to redline.  However...to the best of my knowledge nobody has truly found out why they drop valves/wipe cam lobes. I *think* it's a valve train geometry thing.
The two valve engines are a sweet thing, indeed, with their own character. As mentioned above, keep a close eye on the exhaust valves. If they begin to stretch between valve checks, they are talkin to you. It is absolutely no big deal to swap them out.
The best of the lot? Just MHO, number one is the Monza, good luck finding one.. I'll have one this weekend, with any luck at all..second is the Mark III, basically a Monza in street clothes, and after that the various V65s. I, personally, am really fond of the SP.

[John A]

On the pre buy inspection, check the end play of the crankshaft by pulling the clutch lever to move it forward and a screwdriver in the timing hole to pry it aft. More than a millimeter and it's a problem. The end float is controlled by two half moon washers that sandwich a flange on the crank. There were a few that had improperly made half moon washers that would deform when the case halfs were bolted together. The symptoms of this is the engine runs and idles fine but dies when the clutch lever is pulled.           There is a rear end mod to improve oiling to the pinion bearings that needs to be done. It consists of drilling a hole and turning the spacer plate to create a pocket for oil to feed the hole which leads to the pinion bearings. The swing arm is to be level to use the oil level hole.
There is a really good transmission breather mod that allows for the transmission to be filled to the level hole with the bike leaning over on its sidestand. It consists of pulling the starter and drilling a hole, tapping it for a grease fitting with the ball and spring removed and a hose attached . There is a natural breather box inside the transmission located behind the starter in the upper,aft portion between the webs.

[Chuck in Indiana]

There is a really good transmission breather mod that allows for the transmission to be filled to the level hole with the bike leaning over on its sidestand. It consists of pulling the starter and drilling a hole, tapping it for a grease fitting with the ball and spring removed and a hose attached . There is a natural breather box inside the transmission located behind the starter in the upper,aft portion between the webs.

Hi, John.. any pix? This is the first time I've heard of this mod.. sounds interesting.

[John A]

Chuck I sent that to you by mail, last fall .look thru that pack of info, it's in there

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck I sent that to you by mail, last fall .look thru that pack of info, it's in there

Well, that's embarrassing.  I either missed it or (ahem) forgot it. Thanks.

[injundave]

There is a really good transmission breather mod that allows for the transmission to be filled to the level hole with the bike leaning over on its sidestand. It consists of pulling the starter and drilling a hole, tapping it for a grease fitting with the ball and spring removed and a hose attached . There is a natural breather box inside the transmission located behind the starter in the upper,aft portion between the webs.

I would really like to see this too please John.

[broondan]

This is a must read for someone just starting to test the small block waters:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_older_small_block_issues_.html

I have a V50 Monza myself. Fantastic bikes.

[John A]

I was hoping Chuck would scan the document and take a picture of a transmission with the back cover off, I lost my picture of it. Dave Hewitt who used to be the tech rep came up with it and was surprised and disappointed the factory didn't use it because it works so well.

[Kiwi_Roy]

This is a must read for someone just starting to test the small block waters:

Thanks for the link, I will read it this evening.

[John A]

Chuck, check your pm's. Does anybody have a pic of a small block transmission looking forward with the back cover off?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck, check your pm's. Does anybody have a pic of a small block transmission looking forward with the back cover off?

No picture in the info you sent me. When I can (it'll probably be a month or so, according to the Cutter) I'll pull the back off the spare Lario transmission and send you a picture. You can mark it up, post it, and we'll add to the collective knowledge of the old small blocks.
Interestingly, I'm now running a baby beaver transmission in the Lario with the full liter of oil. It has the same top hat breather, but is completely different. After roughly 5000 miles, there is just the smallest amount of mist around the breather, so *something* is different with the beaver breathing.

[Muzz]

Chuck, check your pm's. Does anybody have a pic of a small block transmission looking forward with the back cover off?

What info in particular are you looking for?

[John A]

Actually we need two pics, one of the left side area behind the starter that shows the webs going aft, and one of the inside of the transmission case looking forward that shows the cast box in the upper left.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ok, I'm currently looking at a Lario, the owner says it's an 86.

I'm aware of the valve issue with these bikes.

Will it have Chrome bores?

Can I check the build date from the Vin No, I have it but don't have the owners permission to post here.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Roy

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, I'm currently looking at a Lario, the owner says it's an 86.

I'm aware of the valve issue with these bikes.

Will it have Chrome bores?

Can I check the build date from the Vin No, I have it but don't have the owners permission to post here.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Roy

No, they have Nikasil bores. No problem with any small block having chrome bores except the very early pre 79s.
Be aware of the valve issues and be prepared to "experiment" with the valve train on the Lario. The 86 will also need the rear drive mod.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thanks Chuck, that's a relief.
When I get it home I will measure the clearance as a reference point.
I read Greg Benders article on the subject that Broondan linked to, no doubt I will have lot's more questions.
I saw the final drive mod a while back, perhaps it's been done already.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks Chuck, that's a relief.
When I get it home I will measure the clearance as a reference point.
I read Greg Benders article on the subject that Broondan linked to, no doubt I will have lot's more questions.
I saw the final drive mod a while back, perhaps it's been done already.

Perhaps it has, but you need to know.  I understand the rear wheel locking up is an unpleasant experience..

[Kiwi_Roy]

Chuck,
I have spent half an our searching for the description of modification

Do you have the link or who it was wrote the fix

Thanks
Roy

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck,
I have spent half an our searching for the description of modification

Do you have the link or who it was wrote the fix

Thanks
Roy

Actually, I did, Roy. Lemme look..

Edit:
Here ya go, Roy..
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=68540.0

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ha, Straight from the horse's mouth, how could I wish for better?

Thanks Chuck

[Skeeve]

Is the V65 the same as a Lario or is there a difference in engine type?

There's a difference: the Lario is a 4v pent-roof type. That's why there are so few of them: Guzzi released them too soon [to keep the big boss happy, heh] and after they sorted out the problems, stopped production because they were sick of the headaches.

I think I read the Lario is a Heron head whatever that means

No, all the other small blocks are Heron heads. Heron heads have the head surface flat, and the combustion chamber is actually cast into the piston crowns. It had various advantages [production, fuel economy] but serious drawbacks in terms of absolute HP output due to limited breathing potential [which wasn't too much of an issue at the slow revs direct drive airplane motors turn. Read Sir Harry Ricardo's _The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine_ for more details...]

[Kiwi_Roy]

Look what followed me home, an 86 Lario with only 40,000 km on the clock and well kept IMHO, what do you think?
Mostly original paint, I'm sure the mufflers aren't original they sure sound good though.
Came with fairly decent tires, a new battery and brake overhaul.
I discussed the rear drive mods with the owner, he didn't know if they had been done, to be fair I think old English iron is more his thing,
would this have been done in the factory by 86?


BTW that's the BC Pen gatehouse in the background, I live just behind LOL


Better than residing here at least.

I had to fix one of the funky front indicators, the contacts make cheap Chinese look good, may be Lucas like the starter.
I will graft in some decent lamp holders, soldered the bulb in place for now.
Will add a decent pair of Italian Fiamm Freeway Blaster Horns to replace the little squeaker it has now.

As soon as I can I will measure the valve lash, at what mileage do they start coming apart?

First impression, it feels like a fun bike.

Please tell me all about my new girlfriend, I know nothing about these creatures.

[Muzz]

Welcome to the world of smallblocks Roy!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Roy, *that* is a great looking Lario. I love the silver ones.

I had to fix one of the funky front indicators, the contacts make cheap Chinese look good

 You have the euro front turn signals, which are like Pete says, "rocking horse shit." I'll gladly trade your POS turn signals for mine.  No need to thank me.

The bike certainly appears to be original and in wonderful condition.

I discussed the rear drive mods with the owner, he didn't know if they had been done, to be fair I think old English iron is more his thing,
would this have been done in the factory by 86?

No. It was first done in 87.

 

As soon as I can I will measure the valve lash, at what mileage do they start coming apart?

Around 6000 miles. (10 K) Some have made it over 20000, with strict observation of a 7K rpm rev limit. The problem is, power is still going up at that point, and past the 7800 red line. That's where the fun is.  Compared to the 2V small block, they are lacking in bottom end torque, but really come alive above 5K rpm. They are just a hoot to operate.

Kev dawg will be along shortly to tell you the problem can be cured by throwing thousands of dollars (!!) at the heads. I, personally, don't believe it. Megacycle used to make cams with extra lubrication holes for them, but quit because their cam lobes got wiped off, too.


Mine had 19000 miles on it when I got it, and when I tore it down, it showed signs of having dropped valves at least twice at that point.

It's a shame about the valve problem, because it is one of the most fun bikes Guzzi has ever built.

For probably more information than you want to know about Larios..

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=58695.0