Vikings in Canada (Newfoundland) First- No April Fools

[LowRyter]

Great album!!!

yeah, my favorite live album, especially the extended version......follow ed closely by

[LowRyter]

The Misissippian culture traded from the North East to modern day New Orleans . Non native artifacts found their way along trade routes used by the culture . In fact , there is some evidence that at least a modicum of trade and a sharing of culture occurred across the entire N.A. continent , and even all the way to the S.A. continent .

 Dusty

I've read that Cahokia was as large as London and Paris during the 13th Cent.

[oldbike54]

I've read that Cahokia was as large as London and Paris during the 13th Cent.

 Probably . Interesting that by the time Euro explorers came upon the Misissippian culture , it was already mostly gone . There are two sites in Oklahoma , might make a good day trip .

 Dusty

[Orange Guzzi]

It is very unfortunate there is not more historical data available regarding the past human history of North America.  The indigenous people prior to 1400 a.d. left very little written history.  Here in Indiana, the bison, crossed the Ohio river into Kentucky to reach the salt flats.  The bison made massive trails that lead from Kentucky, across Southern Indiana and into Illinois and points west.  The amount of stone tools in the soil is amazing.  There are areas with mollusk/oyster shell 4 feet deep from using them as ground cover.  The source of food, shelter and animal skins was easy picking.  Daniel Boone only had to reach the Kentucky River in his scouting for trails.  From that point forward, the buffalo roads were already built.  The French took advantage of these trails and charge tolls to pass.  Image trying to collect a toll from 2 million bison. 

[Shorty]

Good point Nick. Don't get me started about how we civilized white explorers ruined this continent.

Dean

It's dog eat dog . Our dogs won.

[LowRyter]

It is very unfortunate there is not more historical data available regarding the past human history of North America.  The indigenous people prior to 1400 a.d. left very little written history.  Here in Indiana, the bison, crossed the Ohio river into Kentucky to reach the salt flats.  The bison made massive trails that lead from Kentucky, across Southern Indiana and into Illinois and points west.  The amount of stone tools in the soil is amazing.  There are areas with mollusk/oyster shell 4 feet deep from using them as ground cover.  The source of food, shelter and animal skins was easy picking.  Daniel Boone only had to reach the Kentucky River in his scouting for trails.  From that point forward, the buffalo roads were already built.  The French took advantage of these trails and charge tolls to pass.  Image trying to collect a toll from 2 million bison.

There is no history of them whatsoever.  They left nothing, not even the name of their civilization. 

Unfortunately, they were a human sacrificial blood cult.  I think that historically those type things have a tendency to self-destruct. 

[nick949]

Here is a more balance view of the discoveries in Newfoundland. More caution, less hysterical.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/vikings-newfoundland-1.3515747

Nick

[Sasquatch Jim]

 "The roasting of the ore could be accidental. All it would take is a camp fire on the ground where the soil is full of bog ore. Such areas are common in Newfoundland," she wrote in an email.

 The above is copied from the article.

 I think it would take a lot more heat to extract ferrous metal from bog iron.  I don't think a campfire would do it.  It would need the heat from a fire fed by bellows to be hot enough to extract ore from bog diggings.
 If bog iron was found it most certainly means someone knew about pumping air into coals to get enough heat.
 I don't believe indigenous tribes had that technology.  Other than from trade over long distances, native Americans had no knowledge of iron.  Northern Europeans did know how to smelt iron.

[oldbike54]

 To the best of my knowledge , none of my ancestors possessed the ability to smelt any metals . So , yes , this appears to be a European site . Mostly the N.A. natives never fought wars on the scale that Europeans did , so the need for metallurgy never happened . Now , some of the Central American natives were very accomplished in war .

 Dusty

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Iron artifacts have been found in Greenland dating to more than a thousand years ago.
 However these when analised are found to have been hammered out of meteors found on the ground.
 Besides, a thousand years ago northern Europeans had found Greenland and would have recognized meteoric iron for what it was and known how to work it.
 Other than silver and gold, north americans had very little knowledge of metals.  These two metals were originally worked without melting them.  They were beaten from their ore and beaten into shape.
 This could be done with a meteor but probably wasn't until Europeans showed them the value of iron.

[rocker59]

...and that Cristoforo Colombo d00d never "discovered America".  He discovered Hispanola and later, Cuba...

[oldbike54]

...and that Cristoforo Colombo d00d never "discovered America".  He discovered Hispanola and later, Cuba...

 Which of course had already been "discovered" by someone else 

 Dusty

[Shorty]

To the best of my knowledge , none of my ancestors possessed the ability to smelt any metals . So , yes , this appears to be a European site . Mostly the N.A. natives never fought wars on the scale that Europeans did , so the need for metallurgy never happened . Now , some of the Central American natives were very accomplished in war .

 Dusty

The stuff they did with obsidian alone is scary

[wymple]

Since everyone is getting so technical, America is not limited to North. There is South America occupying a lot of the Americas, and that includes all those islands in the Caribbean.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  And they too were the height of stone age technology, not even having yet entered the bronze age, much less known about iron or steel.  Weapons using obsidian were incredibly sharp but not so durable  for a long battle.  Same with weapons fitted with sharks teeth by Polynesians.
  By comparison Zulus and some other African tribes had iron smiths who had forced air forges to hammer out blades and spear points and were very effective wielding them in battle.

[Stormtruck2]

When America was "Discovered", it was filled with Indians.  The men hunted and fished by day, smoked, shot the shit and had sex with their wives by night.  The woman cooked, cleaned, took care of the kids, did the laundry, by day fed and had sex with their husbands by night.   And the white man thought he could improve on that set up??

[oldbike54]

Since everyone is getting so technical, America is not limited to North. There is South America occupying a lot of the Americas, and that includes all those islands in the Caribbean.

 Pretty certain we have mentioned at least Central America . Still , truth is , old Chris was lost . If he hadn't had a very good publicist to clean things up a bit ...and even at that , folks were already inhabiting the Americas , so what did he discover ? 

 Dusty

[leafman60]

Here is a more balance view of the discoveries in Newfoundland. More caution, less hysterical.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/vikings-newfoundland-1.3515747

Nick

Yes, that's a better report.  It's the same one I posted earlier.

.

[oldbike54]

 OK fellas , let's not turn a discussion about history into a political rant . Thanks .

 Dusty

[rob-mg]

I think that the significance of this, if the archeologists are correct, is the proximity of the site to Cape Breton Island. If the Vikings got as far south as the Port aux Basques area, it's more than possible that they got from there to Cape Breton, and from Cape Breton to the mainland.

The principal evidence is apparently evidence of use of iron, in which case the only plausible alternate explanation is Basques. If it turns out to be Basques, that in itself would be an important discovery.

The BBC story is the best, but says nothing about carbon dating tests, which would presumably be helpful.

P.S. As far as I know, earlier comments about the Beotuk are misinformed on many levels, including when the Beotuk arrived in Newfoundland and what happened when Europeans arrived. Pity that a potentially important discovery about Norse exploration a thousand years ago has to be leveraged to make a political point that has nothing to do with this discovery.

[Jim Rich]

The Vikings had cooler boats.

[rob-mg]

The Vikings had cooler boats.

There's going to be a Viking ship sailing from Norway to North America in May: http://www.drakenexpeditionamerica.com

But it is not going to be an exact replica, no doubt because a replica would be unseaworthy by modern standards.

Similarly, there were major modernizations to the replica of John Cabot's Matthew that sailed from the UK to North America in 1997.

[wymple]

"what did he discover ? "

A good supply of slave labor

[roofus]

Before you guys have an orgasm, this hasn't been verified yet. But it was on the internet!

The World Heritage site at L'anse Aux Medows has been verified. It's the new site on the other side of The Rock that is currently under investigation.

[boatdetective]

This thread has degenerated into an "evil European/blessed native culture" rant. I wouldn't begin to get into that whole argument. You're going to believe what you want to believe. However- it clearly politics and has has ruined the thread.

[Orange Guzzi]

Indiana Legend Says Welsh Settlers Arrived in the 12th Century

September 03, 1989|JODI PERRAS | Associated Press

CHARLESTOWN, Ind. — On a rugged bluff overlooking the Ohio River, known locally as "Devil's Backbone," centuries of overgrowth obscures a secret of history.

Legend has it that this was the site of a large stone fort and a settlement of Welshmen who sailed to America three centuries before the time of Christopher Columbus.

In 1799, early settlers found six skeletons clad in breastplates bearing a Welsh coat of arms. Indian legends told of "yellow-haired giants" who settled in Kentucky, southern Indiana, southern Ohio and Tennessee--a region they called "the Dark and Forbidden Land."

Archeologists debunk the legend. They say that evidence indicates that the natives of the region once conducted a vigorous trading network nearby and buried their dead on the bluff.
The earliest survey of the area, done in 1873 by state geologist E. T. Cox and his assistant, William Borden, found a prehistoric fortification on the hilltop. A man-made limestone wall, 150 feet long and 75 feet high in some places, stood along the front and one side of the hill where the cliffs could be scaled, Cox said in his report.

The wall no longer exists, the area's early settlers having taken the huge, unmortared stones to build foundations, bridges and fences that can still be seen throughout the rolling countryside.

Local legend says the walls were built by followers of Prince Madoc of Wales, who led an expedition in the late 12th Century and was never seen again. Tradition says they landed in America and settled briefly in Tennessee, then moved to Kentucky and southern Indiana.
Olson's book says that Madoc was a son of King Owain Gwynedd and was one of his best naval commanders. Madoc's skills and curiosity took him to France and Spain and to Venice and other Mediterranean ports--and on at least two trips to the Americas between 1165 and 1169.

When Gwynedd died in 1169, his sons got into a feud over the throne. A disgusted Madoc, looking for more tranquil surroundings, sailed from Lundy Island south of Wales with three of his brothers and 10 ships.

They are named among the missing in Britain's ancient maritime logs.

Legend says they landed in Mobile Bay in 1170 and traveled up the Alabama River to where it meets the Coosa River, near present-day Alabama's borders with Georgia and Tennessee.

According to Cherokee tradition, they settled there and intermarried with the Indians, and built five stone forts near what is now Chattanooga. Treasure hunters have found Roman coins, European oil lamps and goblets among the ruins, Olson says.

Fort Laid to Indians

Excavations conducted by the anthropology department at the University of Tennessee concluded that one of the structures, known as Old Stone Fort, was built in the 3rd Century by an Indian culture that would have predated Madoc.

No Welsh artifacts were found to substantiate the persistent Madoc legend.

"In professional archeological circles, it's kind of pooh-poohed," Steve Cox, curator of the Tennessee State Museum, said. "There's no archeological evidence. That's really all that we have to go on in the prehistoric period."

The legend says the Welsh-Indians were forced out of Tennessee by the Cherokee and migrated north into Kentucky and the Ohio River Valley by three separate routes.


Prince Madoc is believed to have been born at Dowyddlan Castle between 1134-1142 A.D. His father was Owain Gwynedd who ruled Wales from 1137 until his death in 1169 A.D. Prince Madoc was reputed to be a brilliant naval commander during his father's reign, using his men and ships tactfully to repulse or devastate the seaward invasions that were sent by King Henry II. Julius Caesar had reported that the Welsh used large ships and were skilled navigators. Celtic vessels were able to travel on the open ocean and were far superior to Caesar's own Roman fleet.

Madoc supposedly made three expeditions to the Americas, reaching the South American coast sometime around 1165. Madoc's last expedition left Wales in the year 1170 and this voyage was recorded as lost at sea in the ancient maritime log of missing ships of Britain in 1171.

[fotoguzzi]

There's going to be a Viking ship sailing from Norway to North America in May: http://www.drakenexpeditionamerica.com

But it is not going to be an exact replica, no doubt because a replica would be unseaworthy by modern standards.

Similarly, there were major modernizations to the replica of John Cabot's Matthew that sailed from the UK to North America in 1997.

The Hjemkomst of Robert Asp was sailed from Duluth, mn to Bergin Norway in the 70's.. hand built by himself in Hawley MN. launched 200 miles away in Lake Superior. This man was fascinating! He died before the sail but his kids and others finished the dream.. here's a great old documentary if you have 30 minutes,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ggfvk0NBt8

the ship is now on display in Morehead, Mn.

It's not the first replica to cross the Atlantic, one sailed from Norway to America in 1893!

[rocker59]

This thread has degenerated into an "evil European/blessed native culture" rant. I wouldn't begin to get into that whole argument. You're going to believe what you want to believe. However- it clearly politics and has has ruined the thread.

Culture isn't politics.  I haven't seen what you see clearly, but if one of the mods does see it, we'll delete it.

[Cool Runnings]

Researchers find a rock with a carving of a Mastodon at the underwater Stonehenge of Lake Michigan

Another incredible discovery has been made as researchers have found a rock carving of a Mastodon at the underwater Stonehenge of Lake Michigan.

In 2007, at a depth of twelve meters, researchers found a peculiar set of aligned stones that are believed to be over 10,000 years old.

While searching for shipwrecks, archaeologists from the Northwestern Michigan College came across something interesting at the bottom of lake Michigan. They found mysteriously aligned rocks placed there by ancient man before the area was covered with water. When the discovery was made, researchers couldn’t believe what they were seeing. It’s America’s Stonehenge.






https://manvsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2015/11/20/researchers-find-a-rock-with-a-carving-of-a-mastodon-at-the-underwater-stonehenge-of-lake-michigan/

[John A]

Thanks, maybe I laid a political turd on it which was deleted. It was an article on how the brain worked in the area of politics but I'd rather talk about when the first Europeans got to North America!