Vikings in Canada (Newfoundland) First- No April Fools

[LowRyter]

Low Ryter and Cool Runnings -- when the glacial ice melted in a big way around 10-12,000 years ago it produced massive floods very quickly, at least in North America. Maybe filled in the Mediterranean also? Thereby giving birth to lots of legends around the world. Lots of evidence in the Scablands of Eastern Washington and Oregon.

I'm not familiar with Lovelock Cave, but the skull's brow ridges look within normal for current humans. Shapes vary plenty. Neanderthals were, if I'm remembering correctly, rather short and wide, 3/4-scale football linemen. And not a "different species" since they and "modern" H. Sap interbred successfully, just a different body type.

Given damage done by glaciation we'll probably never know what was happening in the Western Hemisphere during previous interglacial periods. Or the rest of the world for that matter, outside of the tropics and Australia. So it's open season for conjecture and fantasy  .
cr

the story goes that there was a huge lake in the midwestern US.  Several times bigger than the great lakes.  This lake was a remnant of the Ice Age.  This water was held in place by an ice dam that broke about  7500 years BC and flooded into the Atlantic.  It flooded the midwest and eastern seaboard, on to the Atlantic and Mediterranean.  It flooded the English Channel and even the Caspian Sea.

I don't think this is speculative.

[Guido Valvole]

John, pretty close to what I read long ago. Pleistocene glaciers held *a lot* of water and a lot of mass. The ground is still rising.

Another book I read 25 years ago when we were supposed to fear the coming Ice Age noted that there were exceptionally warm periods just before the end of some previous interglacials...
cr

[Cool Runnings]

Low Ryter and Cool Runnings -- when the glacial ice melted in a big way around 10-12,000 years ago it produced massive floods very quickly, at least in North America. Maybe filled in the Mediterranean also? Thereby giving birth to lots of legends around the world. Lots of evidence in the Scablands of Eastern Washington and Oregon.

I'm not familiar with Lovelock Cave, but the skull's brow ridges look within normal for current humans. Shapes vary plenty. Neanderthals were, if I'm remembering correctly, rather short and wide, 3/4-scale football linemen. And not a "different species" since they and "modern" H. Sap interbred successfully, just a different body type.

Given damage done by glaciation we'll probably never know what was happening in the Western Hemisphere during previous interglacial periods. Or the rest of the world for that matter, outside of the tropics and Australia. So it's open season for conjecture and fantasy  .
cr

Funny how the archaeologists figure we walked over the Bering Strait, wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier to use boats? 

Another thing, archaeologists/  biological anthropology refuse to investigate the paracas skulls and other elongated skulls found by many megalithic sites. They simply claim 'head binding'. They are left out of the study of human evolution. Look at the carvings/ statues of Akhenaten/ Nefertiti. Not normal looking humans. The idea we are hybrids created by a superior race of beings is considered heresy. Also the word God is a translation from Elohim (flesh and blood beings). In the Bible EL is translated as God. Elohim is the plural form of EL.

[LowRyter]

CR-  I enjoy the "Ancient Aliens" show.  I am not saying it's real, and some of it is plain stupid, but there are some thought provoking ideas. 

[Cool Runnings]

CR-  I enjoy the "Ancient Aliens" show.  I am not saying it's real, and some of it is plain stupid, but there are some thought provoking ideas.

Ever heard of the 'Sumerian King List'. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List

[oldbike54]

 Ever heard of JRR Tolkien ?

 Dusty

[Cool Runnings]

Ever heard of JRR Tolkien ?

 Dusty

I take it your an atheist. 



~ over and out.............

[Arizona Wayne]

You guys ever watch Scott Walker on Discovery Channel, a retired geologist who goes all over the place trying to find evidence to prove others discovered N. America before Columbus did?  He doesn't just claim it he finds evidence and maps it all out.   Of course naysayers challenge his conclusions.

[Matt]

  Everybody knows they made it to Minnisota, they formed a professional football team, and taught brewing skills to the locals.

Rural (as opposed to urban) legend says that the settler kids played on the ruins of a Viking ship in Ulen until time and water took it away.

It may have been a funny tree...it may be notable.

[Penderic]

My best friend is a Newfie. 

 

[nick949]

This thread has ranged from a report on a possible find of a Viking site in Newfoundland - information released far too early in the process, and a fine example of aggressive publicity trumping common sense and good judgement (and we see plenty of that these days) - through the Great Flood, Aliens, Giants and other crypto-archaeology.  It's so easy to jump from A to Z without bothering with all the stuff in-between.

For example, I once had a gentleman excitedly explain to me that a particular hill in Ontario was almost certainly man-made and likely to contain a Celtic burial - perhaps with the remains of Curragh, or maybe a chariot, or God-knows-what. Perhaps it was Viking too - as he was sure that the Vikings had made it to central Ontario, having taken the time to venture far inland, presumably hauling their heavy boats far from any easily navigable waterways, just to be able to incise a petroglyph of what looks like a sailboat (but isn't) on a piece of rock at the Peterborough Petroglyph site.  He really wanted someone to dig into that hill and find out what it contained.

Almost certainly what it contained was rocks. He had failed to do even the most basic background research. If he had, he would have realised that his man-made hill was actually one of a series of glacial drumlins. He would also have spent a micro-second or two figuring out the amount of human effort required to raise a hill of that extent, and that there would inevitably have had to have been work camps, quarries, track-ways and all the other stuff that goes along with any major human enterprise. It was a bit more work than a few guys in a skin boat could manage -unless they had Merlin with them  .  He might have thought that during however long it took to raise the mound, someone might have dropped a single Celtic or Viking artifact along the way which could have supported his argument. Did he think this through? Of course he didn't.

Archaeological explanations of human activity are generally not based on speculation and wishful thinking. Mysterious alignments of rocks, apparent ancient script in the middle of nowhere, miscellaneous finds of ancient out-of-place artifacts (such as the Beardmore Viking relics - look it up!) almost always have a perfectly rational explanation. 

Real archaeological research takes time, effort and builds on reliable information acquired under reliable circumstances. It does not fabricate exotic theories then try to work out ways to prove them. In the crypto-archaeological world, 'real' archaeologists are always cast as stick-in-the-muds, desperately trying to maintain their tenure and working hard to silence those with differing opinions, who have seen the light and know the 'truth'. 

In fact, they're just tired of having to deal with flakes, misfits, the ignorant, the lazy, and the kind of people who would rather get a half hour spot on the History Channel or sell a book than wrestle with real information, reliable context and demonstrable data.

And on that note, if you want to get a glimpse into the life of 'real' archaeology, you can buy my book  :

Nick


http://www.amazon.com/ARCHAEOLOGY-Life-Trenches-Golden-Crystal/dp/1530449669

[Orange Guzzi]

This thread has ranged from a report on a possible find of a Viking site in Newfoundland - information released far too early in the process, and a fine example of aggressive publicity trumping common sense and good judgement (and we see plenty of that these days) - through the Great Flood, Aliens, Giants and other crypto-archaeology.  It's so easy to jump from A to Z without bothering with all the stuff in-between.

For example, I once had a gentleman excitedly explain to me that a particular hill in Ontario was almost certainly man-made and likely to contain a Celtic burial - perhaps with the remains of Curragh, or maybe a chariot, or God-knows-what. Perhaps it was Viking too - as he was sure that the Vikings had made it to central Ontario, having taken the time to venture far inland, presumably hauling their heavy boats far from any easily navigable waterways, just to be able to incise a petroglyph of what looks like a sailboat (but isn't) on a piece of rock at the Peterborough Petroglyph site.  He really wanted someone to dig into that hill and find out what it contained.

Almost certainly what it contained was rocks. He had failed to do even the most basic background research. If he had, he would have realised that his man-made hill was actually one of a series of glacial drumlins. He would also have spent a micro-second or two figuring out the amount of human effort required to raise a hill of that extent, and that there would inevitably have had to have been work camps, quarries, track-ways and all the other stuff that goes along with any major human enterprise. It was a bit more work than a few guys in a skin boat could manage -unless they had Merlin with them  .  He might have thought that during however long it took to raise the mound, someone might have dropped a single Celtic or Viking artifact along the way which could have supported his argument. Did he think this through? Of course he didn't.

Archaeological explanations of human activity are generally not based on speculation and wishful thinking. Mysterious alignments of rocks, apparent ancient script in the middle of nowhere, miscellaneous finds of ancient out-of-place artifacts (such as the Beardmore Viking relics - look it up!) almost always have a perfectly rational explanation. 

Real archaeological research takes time, effort and builds on reliable information acquired under reliable circumstances. It does not fabricate exotic theories then try to work out ways to prove them. In the crypto-archaeological world, 'real' archaeologists are always cast as stick-in-the-muds, desperately trying to maintain their tenure and working hard to silence those with differing opinions, who have seen the light and know the 'truth'. 

In fact, they're just tired of having to deal with flakes, misfits, the ignorant, the lazy, and the kind of people who would rather get a half hour spot on the History Channel or sell a book than wrestle with real information, reliable context and demonstrable data.

And on that note, if you want to get a glimpse into the life of 'real' archaeology, you can buy my book  :

Nick


http://www.amazon.com/ARCHAEOLOGY-Life-Trenches-Golden-Crystal/dp/1530449669

Part of the problem I see is "Big Government".  It is common place for "the government" to step in when artifacts are found.  It is a bittersweet situation because those wanting a project stopped use relics and those that want to complete the project hide the relics from the public.

Case in point.  I live in Indian country.  There are artifacts in every shovel full of dirt and cemetery's on nearly every property grant in my County.  Many places have been shut off from development when "things" have been found.  The street in front of my house is an original road from pre American days.  "The Government" is spending $9 million to repair the hill in front of my home and put turning lanes in.  When ask at a community meeting about artifacts, the question was ignored and we were told straight up that there will be no research into the artifacts that are know to exist.  Good or Bad, I don't know. 

As far as Viking stacking rocks and leaving thing lying around, apparently they did in Southern Indiana or someone spent many days carving and stacking very large rocks on top of the hill at 14 Mile Creek. 

I think the time perspective is over looked when it comes to human efforts.  Keeping life in perspective of the times is hard to do.  Today We fill our days with many activities that were not know in the past.  Humans had and lived their lives doing much different things all day than we do today.  To sit and carve a rock with a few characters of images would not seem out of the ordinary in the past.  Now days, if I told some one I spent the last three days carving my name and a scary face into a 3 foot diameter rock I chiseled out of a hillside a mile away, I would be called nuts. 

[oldbike54]

 Nick , damnit , haven't we had the talk about not interjecting facts and reality into a discussion about , well , almost anything  You scientists and the need for proof can always screw up a perfectly good thread containing wild conspiracy theories and a bit of speculation by folks that think the Boston Celtics are actually Celtic . Hell , the basketball team isn't even pronounced correctly , what is a Seltic anyway . (Yeah yeah , I know the argument for the soft C , although it isn't convincing) 

 Dusty

[rocker59]

I watched a replay of the PBS / NOVA "Vikings Unearthed" show Tuesday Night.

Very interesting. 

[oldbike54]

I watched a replay of the PBS / NOVA "Vikings Unearthed" show Tuesday Night.

Very interesting.

 Did it mention the lost Viking treasure over here in the Illinois River , or maybe it was lost in the Arkansas . Wait , maybe that was the Conquistadors that lost the barrel full of gold in Oklahoma 

 Dusty

[fotoguzzi]

I watched a replay of the PBS / NOVA "Vikings Unearthed" show Tuesday Night.

Very interesting.

more than very interesting! lots of facts and finds to proove the second site..

[nick949]

Part of the problem I see is "Big Government".  It is common place for "the government" to step in when artifacts are found.  It is a bittersweet situation because those wanting a project stopped use relics and those that want to complete the project hide the relics from the public.

Case in point.  I live in Indian country.  There are artifacts in every shovel full of dirt and cemetery's on nearly every property grant in my County.  Many places have been shut off from development when "things" have been found.  The street in front of my house is an original road from pre American days.  "The Government" is spending $9 million to repair the hill in front of my home and put turning lanes in.  When ask at a community meeting about artifacts, the question was ignored and we were told straight up that there will be no research into the artifacts that are know to exist.  Good or Bad, I don't know. 

As far as Viking stacking rocks and leaving thing lying around, apparently they did in Southern Indiana or someone spent many days carving and stacking very large rocks on top of the hill at 14 Mile Creek. 

I think the time perspective is over looked when it comes to human efforts.  Keeping life in perspective of the times is hard to do.  Today We fill our days with many activities that were not know in the past.  Humans had and lived their lives doing much different things all day than we do today.  To sit and carve a rock with a few characters of images would not seem out of the ordinary in the past.  Now days, if I told some one I spent the last three days carving my name and a scary face into a 3 foot diameter rock I chiseled out of a hillside a mile away, I would be called nuts.

I'm glad that you have a state department which takes its cultural heritage seriously and acts to preserve or record archaeological sites when they are in jeopardy. However, if they are doing their job properly, the remains will have been found, identified and managed long before any construction occurs.

Sooner or later (probably later) North America's recent (ie. non-Native) immigrants (yep - that's all us whitish and brown folks) will wake up and recognise that human history is far more interesting and valuable when people cease to think of it as 'our history' and 'their history'.

I always try to assume the best, so perhaps the archaeological information available from the area of the hill in front of your home has been evaluated and some cost / benefit analysis been applied to the archaeological resources.  It's important to realise that archaeology isn't just about digging up artifacts. Any cretin can do that - and many of them do.  Artifacts only have value when they can be studied in their context: the environment in which they were deposited. From an arrowhead on it's own in a field, we can only get an approximate age (by seriation), and a broad geographical context.  But an arrowhead found in a storage pit along with pieces of pottery or food remains, or preserved in the soil of a dwelling living floor, tells us far more about the lives and activities of the people who made it.

You live in "Indian Country" but when was the last time you saw an "Indian". From what I just looked up, less than 0.5% of Indiana's population is comprised of indigenous people.  There are reasons for that: disease, warfare, deliberate extermination, removal. The  "artifacts in every shovel full of dirt and cemetery's on nearly every property" that you mention are direct evidence of the huge population of of Native Americans who occupied those lands in the past.  Before looking for European rock-pilers, I would evaluate the most obvious evidence first. 

As far as Viking, Madoc or some lost band of Welshmen erecting a massive stone fence along the bluff at 14 Mile Creek, you can have my left testicle if you can demonstrate, beyond reasonable doubt, that it can be attributed to any of these people. Data and evidence are necessary ingredients, not speculation, legend and myth.

I agree that many people had time in abundance in the past. But while expending all that time, they had to live somewhere, eat food, cook meals, break tools, drop garbage, occupy dwellings, fornicate, die and be buried. All these things (well, perhaps excepting fornication) leave traces in the ground for archaeologists to investigate and record. So please tell me when the local archaeological society or university anthropology department finds the Welsh or Viking work camp for the people who erected those stones.  I'd be interested to see the broken fragments of wheel-thrown early Medieval pottery and discarded iron tools they undoubtedly would have left behind.

I suspect they are far more likely to find a large First Nations settlement close by: probably relating to the Hopewell or Fort Ancient cultures. 

In dealing with the past, it's always best to remember and apply Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is almost always the best.

Nick

[Arizona Wayne]

Nick , damnit , haven't we had the talk about not interjecting facts and reality into a discussion about , well , almost anything  You scientists and the need for proof can always screw up a perfectly good thread containing wild conspiracy theories and a bit of speculation by folks that think the Boston Celtics are actually Celtic . Hell , the basketball team isn't even pronounced correctly , what is a Seltic anyway . (Yeah yeah , I know the argument for the soft C , although it isn't convincing) 

 Dusty

So moderator, are you saying nothing posted on this forum is to be taken seriously and it's all just a big joke?   It's all just a BS session no matter the subject matter?

If so, sorry, I had no idea.  I actually thought people here wanted to learn factual things they didn't know. Just because you don't believe in all the things some others believe in doesn't mean you are right and they are bonkers, it means they might know something you don't yet.  Don't be so smug in your own beliefs.

[fotoguzzi]

[oldbike54]

 Wayne , what I am saying is that I believe our boy Nick who has spent the last 45 years digging in the dirt and getting paid to do so , rather than some amateur with a theory based on faulty data . The Vikings left behind no evidence of having ever been in Ohio or Indiana despite some piled up rocks . The idea that the Native Americans were incapable of building with rocks is not only ludicrous , but , in your words , "smug" There is a fake runestone about 75 miles from where I live , that no matter how many scientists have proved is only about 120 years old the locals , and some hucksters continue to insist it is authentic because , well , it makes them money .

 Dusty

[boatdetective]

Nick,

Please give me your address and I can send you a gun. You are probably ready to blow your head off about now.

Folks- let's listen to the professional in the room. As the saying goes: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. "

 

[HardAspie]

Columbus was the last man to discover America.

[LowRyter]

Does anyone remember when the Discovery Channel (and National Geographic, Learning Channel, etc.) used to actually show REAL documentaries?   Back when network news was real and CNN was a joke?  (and CNN is even worse now) 

Back when MTV was MTV?

[oldbike54]

 Yes , and when they stopped making sense there was no more cable in the house . PBS still does pretty good work , a bargain for a small donation every year .

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

Yes , and when they stopped making sense there was no more cable in the house . PBS still does pretty good work , a bargain for a small donation every year .

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

 Very good catch John 

 Dusty

[HardAspie]

The big suit.

[Arizona Wayne]

Wayne , what I am saying is that I believe our boy Nick who has spent the last 45 years digging in the dirt and getting paid to do so , rather than some amateur with a theory based on faulty data . The Vikings left behind no evidence of having ever been in Ohio or Indiana despite some piled up rocks . The idea that the Native Americans were incapable of building with rocks is not only ludicrous , but , in your words , "smug" There is a fake runestone about 75 miles from where I live , that no matter how many scientists have proved is only about 120 years old the locals , and some hucksters continue to insist it is authentic because , well , it makes them money .

 Dusty

Dusty, right now Nick isn't the only person claiming the Vikings may have been here way before Columbus via a satellite in space.   They can see things up there we can't now down here.  But what I'm referring to  has to be verified @ the location before it's a done deal.  Obviously you are not aware of what I'm referring to.  That's too bad.  What I'm claiming is really scientific.  We will see if it's bogus or not.

[oldbike54]

Dusty, right now Nick isn't the only person claiming the Vikings may have been here way before Columbus via a satellite in space.   They can see things up there we can't now down here.  But what I'm referring to  has to be verified @ the location before it's a done deal.  Obviously you are not aware of what I'm referring to.  That's too bad.  What I'm claiming is really scientific.  We will see if it's bogus or not.

 Wayne , I never ever said that the Vikings being in Newfoundland was incorrect , or that there isn't a  different site 200 miles South from the proven settlement . What Nick and I are disputing are the claims that they were in Ohio or Indiana . Not sure where you got the impression that Nick and I were disagreeing , maybe my statement wasn't clear .

 Dusty

[Arizona Wayne]

This "discussioin" has been going on so long I wasn't about to read it all and find out it's really only between you and Nick.  How can you as a monitor hog that much space on this forum w/o feeling guilty for it?  If you 2 guys want to BS that much do it on your own e-mail.