Author Topic: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???  (Read 9103 times)

Offline dsrdave

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 856
  • Location: wisconsin,an sometimes las vegas
Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« on: April 13, 2016, 04:32:41 PM »
I'm having issues starting the '91 Lemans.  The solenoid will click but not always make contact to turn the starter motor.  The battery is fine and I've cleaned all elec. connections from the relay to the starter.  I did not see a way to take the solenoid off the starter ???  I'm sure if I could dress and clean the contacts inside the solenoid everything would be fine.  Is there a way to get to the contacts ??  The starter is an original equip. starter with approx. 11k miles on it.  Thx for any help.  Dave.
2-850T, 2-1000 convert/hacked, V11 sport, V50, centauro, '97 sport 1100, '71 V7 ambo, '76 850 Lemans,CX100,"83 LM III,1000SE, '91 LM V, '07 Griso, '53 super alce,moto parilla, zigolo, Lodola 175, Lodola 235,  '07 norge, '67 stornello, 57galletto, Nuovo Falcone, stornello ISDT, 52 Airone sport

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9809
  • Location: New Westminster British Columbia, Canada
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2016, 05:11:52 PM »
It sounds like a case of Startus Interuptus caused by too much resistance in the feed to the coil, you can easily check this by taking a wire from the trigger terminal (spade) on the solenoid and touching the other end to battery positive.
If it spins ok discount the starter.

It's a very easy fix on your bike.
I suspect if you overhaul the ignition switch it will fix the problem but if you send me your e-mail address in a PM I will send you back a modified schematic providing a separate feed to the starter relay contact, this drops the
current in the wire from the ignition switch to start relay from ~40 Amps to 100 milliamps.
You have the old pointy fuses, clean those up and add some tension to the clips with an "O" ring will help too, it's pretty hard to get 40 Amps through a bunch of loose corroded contacts.
Roy
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 05:36:55 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
17 V7III Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline dsrdave

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 856
  • Location: wisconsin,an sometimes las vegas
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2016, 06:13:56 PM »
I'm familiar with the startus interuptus on my griso and how to fix it.  I hadn't heard of it happening on a tonti bike but there's no reason for it not to.  I'll check voltage and go from there. Thx, dave.
2-850T, 2-1000 convert/hacked, V11 sport, V50, centauro, '97 sport 1100, '71 V7 ambo, '76 850 Lemans,CX100,"83 LM III,1000SE, '91 LM V, '07 Griso, '53 super alce,moto parilla, zigolo, Lodola 175, Lodola 235,  '07 norge, '67 stornello, 57galletto, Nuovo Falcone, stornello ISDT, 52 Airone sport

Offline Wayne Orwig

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 13921
    • Hog Mountain weather
  • Location: Hog Mountain
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 06:23:34 PM »
I'm familiar with the startus interuptus on my griso and how to fix it.  I hadn't heard of it happening on a tonti bike but there's no reason for it not to.  I'll check voltage and go from there. Thx, dave.
I've seen it on a Bilabio and an EV, but it is rare.
On the Bilabio I encountered it before 'startus interuptus' was commonly known. I disassembled the Valeo and sanded off the solenoid plunger where it rubbed and that corrected it. The solenoid was held on by Torx screws.
On the EV I simply bumped the 15 amp fuse to a 20, because the fuse was just a touch too much resistance. It eventually got a new battery too, and the issue disappeared.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 06:23:34 PM »

Offline Triple Jim

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5930
    • Lakeland Services Company
  • Location: North Central North Carolina
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2016, 06:28:35 PM »
I'm familiar with the startus interuptus on my griso and how to fix it.  I hadn't heard of it happening on a tonti bike but there's no reason for it not to.

My Mille started having the symptoms, and when I did the S.I. fix, the clack of the starter engaging was startling after a year of hearing it barely pulling in.
When the Brussels sprout fails to venture from its lair, it is time to roll a beaver up a grassy slope.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9809
  • Location: New Westminster British Columbia, Canada
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 06:40:54 PM »
I'm familiar with the startus interuptus on my griso and how to fix it.  I hadn't heard of it happening on a tonti bike but there's no reason for it not to.  I'll check voltage and go from there. Thx, dave.
It can happen on any old Guzzi, I suspect it's the ignition switch or poor contact at the pointy fuses in your case (was it all right last riding season?). The grease in the ignition
switch goes hard making it stiff and holding pressure off the contacts, I first struck it on my 2001 VII Sport, the switch resistance was over 18 Ohms.
The switches on the earlier Tonti bikes may be a bit more robust making them less effected.
I have a hard time with the way Luigi has wired the bike, no overcurrent protection in the ignition switch.
Send me an e-mail address and I will fire back some suggestions that will make the starter engage like never before.

Here's a sketch I sent someone explaining the solenoid sequence note the heavy inrush current in step "A".
Substitute a relay contact for the starter button I show and add a pointy fuse and ignition switch in series.
( I think the guy was proposing to do away with the start relay, I was trying to show why it wasn't a good idea, I will substitute another sketch showing the normal circuit as time permits)

You are not getting past step "A" chances are the combined current is < 20 Amps.
Imagine 1 Ohm in the switch + fuse + wiring to and fro, less than 12 Amps
My VII Sport was still barely operating at 18 Ohms because the wiring is better.

As I said, take a hot wire from the solenoid spade connector to the battery, that will prove my point
(put it in Neutral first so you don't launch it through the wall)
Cheers
Roy
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 08:15:59 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
17 V7III Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9809
  • Location: New Westminster British Columbia, Canada
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2016, 10:53:55 PM »
Now let's see what happens if we add some resistance in the circuit, the Ignition switch, the fuse and the wiring to and fro, let's say it adds up to 0.5 Ohms.
The coils have a combined resistance of 0.3 Ohms so the total resistance is 0.3 + 0.5 = 0.8 Ohms
Now the maximum current you can get is 12/0.8 = 15 Amps, just 37% of what it should be and the solenoid doesn't have enough strength to pull in.

I have always maintained that the solenoid current should not go through the ignition switch, it doesn't on some Guzzis and they never suffer from Startus Interuptus.
The starter relay coil circuit must go through the ignition switch for safety reasons but that's only about 100 mA it will still pull in with several hundred Ohms resistance, the 0.5 Ohms
we saw disabling the start is not relevant at all.
Here's an example I'm familiar with
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif
See how the start relay is fed straight from the battery through F5 with less than 2 feet of wire.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 07:57:38 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
17 V7III Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline flangeman_70

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2016, 12:45:31 AM »
I'm familiar with the startus interuptus on my griso and how to fix it.  I hadn't heard of it happening on a tonti bike but there's no reason for it not to.  I'll check voltage and go from there. Thx, dave.

Hi Dave,

Kiwi has supplied good information and it may be an overload but he is absolutely correct :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

This is how I troubleshoot on vehicle starter issues, I hope it is of use to you and others:-

The easiest way to determine whether starter problems are a ground, power or a starter issue is to take a 3 foot length of wire and put a spade type socket on the end and fit it to the solenoid where your Brown wire is, then strip the other end and place it with purpose to the positive battery terminal, if she spins up, you are golden and know you need that relay, I'd do the mod anyway. If it is still sluggish, take a jumper lead and place it at one of the bolts attaching the starter motor to crankase and the other end to the negative terminal and if she spins up, you need to address the ground lead termination or better still add an extra ground directly to the engine/gearbox. Frankly, I recommend you install both the relay and the extra ground regardless, I have to my SPIII and it prevents a lot of un-necessary drama  :thumb:

If the starter continues to give issues then you need to take further action which we can address as you give feedback  :popcorn:

Good luck!

Adam
You only went to school to learn how to learn

Adam

SP III 1990
V10 Centauro 1996

Offline Chuck in Indiana

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 29461
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2016, 05:55:21 AM »
Dave, to address your original question..
Quote
I did not see a way to take the solenoid off the starter ???  I'm sure if I could dress and clean the contacts inside the solenoid everything would be fine.  Is there a way to get to the contacts ?? 
Yes.  :smiley:
I've done it, but don't remember how. Hey! I'm old. Seems like I had to drill out some rivets, but...
A corroded sticky solenoid is actually common. That, and the glue coming off the magnets are the two common failures. It happened to the Mighty Scura, and Mark had a big box of failed starters he'd replaced under warranty when he was a dealer. He told me to dig through the box and find one that wasn't locked up and take the solenoid off it.  :smiley: Did that, but still don't remember how..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9809
  • Location: New Westminster British Columbia, Canada
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2016, 09:06:50 AM »
I tend to focus on an electrical explanation for a problem.
If you look at the magnitude of the current in my sketch above (combined 40 Amps) this will quickly blow the fuse in the start relay supply if the solenoid sticks and the main contacts don't close.
As soon as the contacts close the current drops to ~10 Amps because there is no Voltage across the pull in coil.

I did a test on my Valeo by removing the large wire feeding the main contact (simulate bad contact) the fuse went in < 1 second

I suspect there's something limiting the coil current to a point where the solenoid cannot pull in but not enough to cause the fuse to blow or it's pulling in but not completing the circuit to the motor.

There's a lot going on when you press the start button.

Remember in place of the simple start button shown in my sketch substitute the ignition switch, a pointy fuse, 10 feet of wire and probably several connectors
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1990_LM_V.gif
Trace the red wire from battery to switch and brown wire back to the fuse block, there's a bunch of spade connectors right there to work loose

The Startus Interuptus fix on these old girls is easy, just move the brown wire from contact of relay (33) to coil and supply a direct feed to the contact. Now the brown wire instead of having
to supply 40 Amps only has to supply enough to close the relay (<200 mA)

Trivia question, what's item 47 for?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 02:35:10 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
17 V7III Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 14222
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2016, 09:28:47 AM »
I did not see a way to take the solenoid off the starter ??? 

From looking at a Valeo clone, it appears the front casting "nose" is removed first (four screws? in from the front), then the three screws securing the solenoid to the plate between the motor housing and nose casting will be exposed. 
Charlie

Offline tris

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2807
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2016, 09:48:10 AM »
2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

redrider

  • Guest
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2016, 10:38:36 AM »
Every time those contacts make or break, arcing occurs which carbons up the contacts. I took mine apart on the Mille, cleaned and lubed the bits and re-assembled. A year later the starter died. Once the solenoid cable nuts are removed, the solenoid cap is removed. A soldering iron is required as well.

Offline Muzz

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 7057
  • On the backside of the planet.
  • Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Re: Valeo starter solenoid issues ???
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2016, 03:46:58 AM »
Some years ago the Valeo on my 750 Breva started doing the same thing. I did not know about startus interuptus back then. Pfaff in Sweden sent me a picture of the starter and I stripped it down. There was a metal shroud inside which basically separated the armature/stator area from the brush set up. It had come loose and was banging around on the inside, and had worn through the shellac on the end of the armature causing an intermittent short. It had started to look like a piece of Swiss cheese. Took it out, biffed it and because I could not really see the point of it I threw the unit back together without it. Still works. <shrug>

Like Chuck, I can't remember if I even took the solenoid off and if I did, how. :rolleyes:
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

 


Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride, Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
Advertise Here