Figure 8's on a Norge-advice

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Ignore everything anyone else has told you and just install a sidecar.  T'werks for me.

[Huzo]

That's all that really matters Sassy !

[atavar]

I think maybe what is getting lost in the whole CG discussion is that there are multiple CG's in play here.  There is the rather fixed CG of the bike and then the rather fluid CG of the rider.  While these do certainly interact and do to some extent combine to a resultant they are two separate dynamics.
The CG of the bike changes only minimally as you lean, but the rider CG can change dramatically up down left and right if you get off the seat.  If this were not the case track riders would never have to drag a knee to counter centrifugal forces.
I am not as learned in physics as I would like to be, but i do know that there is a force vector that results from gravity, center of mass, acceleration, centrifugal and centripetal forces and other things.  Our goal is to keep the vector pointing through the contact patch between the tyres and the road surface which ultimately lets us stay balanced and rolling. 
I apologize if I am stating this badly or not making myself understood,

[MGPilot]

I have been a MSF instructor for 8 years and here is the scoop. Head turns are crucial. You should be able to see the rear of the bike in your peripheral vision. Counter weight by moving your upper body to the outside of the turn. Knees on the tank. Press down on the outside footrest. Control speed with the clutch and drag the rear brake slightly. Lean that bike! Do NOT touch the front brake or squeeze the clutch lever fully. Stay in the friction zone. Do not look down unless you want to go down. In or on any vehicle, the throttle controls engine speed only. Sear that into your memory. We can put 3 Ultra Classic bikes in the blue box at once. Not bragging, any one can manage it.

In this case, I'm happy to let experience rule. I took the MSF course before I got my first bike (an '82 Honda CBX) and was surprised how I could do figure 8's down the stripes in parking lots (skipping every other line) with such a large bike. (Not an ideal choice for a first bike...but was it beautiful....) Talented folks could do better. Since I started riding again, have been practicing in off hours in the only lot on the island that doesn't have concrete stops--the one outside the police department and city hall. Have gotten some looks by LEO's coming and going, but haven't given me any crap yet.

Thanks for the detailed reminder. Need to work on it more. I find turns one direction are much easier than the other for me. Doing a better job of weight placement and sight picture (where I'm looking) should dial that in.

[Huzo]

I think maybe what is getting lost in the whole CG discussion is that there are multiple CG's in play here.  There is the rather fixed CG of the bike and then the rather fluid CG of the rider.  While these do certainly interact and do to some extent combine to a resultant they are two separate dynamics.
The CG of the bike changes only minimally as you lean, but the rider CG can change dramatically up down left and right if you get off the seat.  If this were not the case track riders would never have to drag a knee to counter centrifugal forces.
I am not as learned in physics as I would like to be, but i do know that there is a force vector that results from gravity, center of mass, acceleration, centrifugal and centripetal forces and other things.  Our goal is to keep the vector pointing through the contact patch between the tyres and the road surface which ultimately lets us stay balanced and rolling. 
I apologize if I am stating this badly or not making myself understood,

No need to apologise for a damn thing Avie, so far I haven't seen a post from Steven Hawking so we are all amateurs to some degree.  Just try I got to learn facts from bullshit. You make some good points I reckon. Only one thing to mention, the Centre of Mass of the BIKE does remain the same when it leans, it just moves to the side from the point of support, but I reckon you're spot on regarding the fluid positioning of the riders centre of mass, and the combining of bike and rider masses to form the resultant of the two. As the circling starts, the horizontal component (centrifugal force) conspires to stop  you falling on your side, thereby crashing your guts out. That's gotta be a bonus eh ?

[TobyJug]

Posted by: Two Checks
� on: Today at 07:55:51 PM �

 

So every time with ABS (standard with a Norge) when you drag the rear brake, you are also engaging the front?  Is that correct?  It does not feel like the front is engaging at all when I drag the rear slightly, and I think I would maybe feel that?  Even at slow speeds?  Help me understand this.

What the earlier post was talking about was LINKED brakes.  Earlier Guzzis used to have linked braking where, if you applied the rear brake, it would also operate one of the 2 front discs.  It was a nice system and didn't stop me from demonstrating figure of 8s and the like when I was an instructor riding a V50II.

[Two Checks]

Posted by: Two Checks
� on: Today at 07:55:51 PM �

 

So every time with ABS (standard with a Norge) when you drag the rear brake, you are also engaging the front?  Is that correct?  It does not feel like the front is engaging at all when I drag the rear slightly, and I think I would maybe feel that?  Even at slow speeds?  Help me understand this.

I didn't say ABS brakes, I said integrated-where the rear pedal operates the rear caliper and the LF. I s the Norge set up this way?

[oldbike54]

I didn't say ABS brakes, I said integrated-where the rear pedal operates the rear caliper and the LF. I s the Norge set up this way?

 Now I'm confused . Even your quote says ABS . Do you mean linked , which = integrated . 

 Dusty

[toolittletime]

I have been a MSF instructor for 8 years and here is the scoop. Head turns are crucial. You should be able to see the rear of the bike in your peripheral vision. Counter weight by moving your upper body to the outside of the turn. Knees on the tank. Press down on the outside footrest. Control speed with the clutch and drag the rear brake slightly. Lean that bike! Do NOT touch the front brake or squeeze the clutch lever fully. Stay in the friction zone. Do not look down unless you want to go down. In or on any vehicle, the throttle controls engine speed only. Sear that into your memory. We can put 3 Ultra Classic bikes in the blue box at once. Not bragging, any one can manage it.

 :1:

I have absolutely no problem going from lock to lock on my 12 Norge. Like it says above use some rear brake........yes they are linked, but all you're doing is regulating a very slow speed with the brake and clutch and throttle.

Three more important things:
1. Turn your head and look
2. Turn your head and look
3. Turn your head and look.......I think you get my drift.
Also it takes a lot of practice, and will not happen overnight, so keep practicing!!

Tim

[atavar]

Norge brakes are not linked..  I sort of wish they were.  I loved the linked brakes on my old G5.

[Huzo]

:1:

I have absolutely no problem going from lock to lock on my 12 Norge. Like it says above use some rear brake........yes they are linked, but all you're doing is regulating a very slow speed with the brake and clutch and throttle.

Three more important things:
1. Turn your head and look
2. Turn your head and look
3. Turn your head and look.......I think you get my drift.
Also it takes a lot of practice, and will not happen overnight, so keep practicing!!

Tim

Are you sure your brakes on the '12 Norge are linked ? Mine is an '07 an they are not ?????

[jreagan]

Here's another way to think about it.  In my case, when I'm sitting, the seat weighs about 220+lbs.  When I'm standing up, the foot pegs weigh about 220+lbs and the seat only weighs 10 pounds (guessing here). 

So side-by-side, the bike with the heavy seat has a higher center of gravity than the bike with the light seat and heavy footpegs. 

[Two Checks]

Dusty, my quote says I did NOT say ABS.
ABS has nothing to do with integrated brakes.

Okay, the Norge brakes aren't integrated. Thanks.

Honda calls it linked because Guzzi used integrated first.

[oldbike54]

Dusty, my quote says I did NOT say ABS.
ABS has nothing to do with integrated brakes.

Okay, the Norge brakes aren't integrated. Thanks.

Honda calls it linked because Guzzi used integrated first.

 I was just trying to sort things out .

 Dusty

[tazio]

Here's another way to think about it.  In my case, when I'm sitting, the seat weighs about 220+lbs.  When I'm standing up, the foot pegs weigh about 220+lbs and the seat only weighs 10 pounds (guessing here). 

So side-by-side, the bike with the heavy seat has a higher center of gravity than the bike with the light seat and heavy footpegs.

You read the same articles that I did all these years 
 

[oldbike54]

 The change in CoG by standing may effect things somewhat , but the change in fore/aft weight bias probably has a greater effect .

 Dusty

[atavar]

Here's another way to think about it.  In my case, when I'm sitting, the seat weighs about 220+lbs.  When I'm standing up, the foot pegs weigh about 220+lbs and the seat only weighs 10 pounds (guessing here). 

So side-by-side, the bike with the heavy seat has a higher center of gravity than the bike with the light seat and heavy footpegs.

Yeah, but your 220lb  foot pegs are 6 feet tall..  lol

[toolittletime]

Are you sure your brakes on the '12 Norge are linked ? Mine is an '07 an they are not ?????

You are right....not linked.......I stand , or rather sit corrected.  I was thinking of the Goldwing.

Tim

[Huzo]

You are right....not linked.......I stand , or rather sit corrected.  I was thinking of the Goldwing.

Tim

That's OK mate, it's not the crime of the century, I also just wanted to make sure I wasn't up the put about things.

[Huzo]

Here's another way to think about it.  In my case, when I'm sitting, the seat weighs about 220+lbs.  When I'm standing up, the foot pegs weigh about 220+lbs and the seat only weighs 10 pounds (guessing here). 

So side-by-side, the bike with the heavy seat has a higher center of gravity than the bike with the light seat and heavy footpegs.

Don't try to over think it JR, the bike has a centre of mass and so do you, when you climb aboard, the two masses combine and the two become essentially one, although now in a different position. If you raise your bum JUST off the seat your combined centre of mass has moved bugger all ( not much), even though your weight is now put through the 'pegs, you are applying that force over a lever which is your centre of mass down to to your feet and a bit through your hands. Ultimately it won't matter where your weight is applied to the structure of the bike, the forces YOU apply operate thru' YOUR centre of mass. Suffice to say, the TOTAL effect of you and your bike, operate as a single entity, doesn't that sound nice ? Jeez, isn't that what you'd call a "happy ending" ! Just practice what the MSF instructor said and it'll work out. My only caveat would be to that would be, although it doesn't ALWAYS follow that because someone can perform a tricky move very well, it necessarily means that they understand the forces at work, and I am bloody well not obliquely trying to say that's the case here.