High speed panic braking

[lucky phil]

Since I started bike riding/racing with drum braked MCs, far as I'm concerned some of the really fast new bikes front brakes are too sensitive for me to control.  I still use all my fingers on my front brake levers.  Can't imagine using only 2 fingers and be comfortable with that.   

Two finger braking is great, allows finer modulation of the lever and enables better throttle control on down shifts and less chance of the massive overbraking in a panic situation. You obviously need modern brakes but that's how I ride the V11 and all the other bikes I have for that matter. Its like riding with the ball of your foot on the pegs instead of your instep or going back to non boosted brakes in a car. Once you get accustomed to it and its advantages you wouldn't do it any other way.   
My Ducati 1198s has very aggressive front brakes and riding it with full finger braking would be a little dangerous I think.
Ciao

[Arizona Wayne]

Two finger braking is great, allows finer modulation of the lever and enables better throttle control on down shifts and less chance of the massive overbraking in a panic situation. You obviously need modern brakes but that's how I ride the V11 and all the other bikes I have for that matter. Its like riding with the ball of your foot on the pegs instead of your instep or going back to non boosted brakes in a car. Once you get accustomed to it and its advantages you wouldn't do it any other way.   
My Ducati 1198s has very aggressive front brakes and riding it with full finger braking would be a little dangerous I think.



Phil, how old are you and how long have you been riding MCs?  I see you're 57.  Suffice it to say you can't teach an old dog new tricks.  But at the same time if provoked I might surprise you how fast I can ride.   

[lucky phil]

I am indeed 57 Wayne and have been riding for 45 years unbroken. Haven't been without at least 1 bike for all that time. Riding technique evolves with technology although I must say my track style is very dirt bike based. I have that upright position shoulder turned and ready to catch a slide like a flat track rider. Although its totally natural for me to have my knee down on the track I haven't evolved into the style of the modern racer with the low body position in the corners and head below the screen and elbow down. I'll never get the elbow down as I'm just not fast enough but I'm working on the lower body position. I ask better riders at track days what I need to improve as well as observe.
Cant agree with the old dogs new tricks point of view I'm afraid.
As for speed well nothing would surprise me. The best I can do is low 1m52's around Phillip Island, maybe on a perfect day I could manage a 1m51 but haven't got there yet. The Aussie super-bike guys are in the 1m31 second range and the the GP guys in the 1m28's or so these days. My track bike should be good for 1m40's I should think so there's work to do.
Ciao   

[Arizona Wayne]

I never went the flat track style let alone putting my leg out in the corners like Johnny Cecotto & Kenny Roberts made popular, but all my riding is strictly on public roads now so I get my kicks taking on younger riders on faster bikes who think they've found an old geezer  who is easy pickens for fun.  Northern California is a plethora of great twisty low traffic roads to have duals on.  Used to live there and get back there in the summer to get my mojo back.  I'm old school all the way like Mike Hailwood,etc. But bikes/tires/brakes today are far better handling than what they had to make go fast/stop in their era.  To each their own happiness. 

[lucky phil]

I never went the flat track style let alone putting my leg out in the corners like Johnny Cecotto & Kenny Roberts made popular, but all my riding is strictly on public roads now so I get my kicks taking on younger riders on faster bikes who think they've found an old geezer  who is easy pickens for fun.  Northern California is a plethora of great twisty low traffic roads to have duals on.  Used to live there and get back there in the summer to get my mojo back.  I'm old school all the way like Mike Hailwood,etc. But bikes/tires/brakes today are far better handling than what they had to make go fast/stop in their era.  To each their own happiness. 

Yes just drove LA to SF along the coast. Would rather have done it on the bike.
Also drove the famous Mulholland Drive while in LA. Not impressed I'm afraid.
Ciao

[Rough Edge racing]

Since the OP used the term 'panic', the hope is that the bike has ABS.  Controlled emergency braking MIGHT be faster without ABS but once panic is involved, squeeeeeezing hard is going to happen.  Without ABS a bad outcome seems more likely.

 OP here, "panic" braking to me is you are riding at 60 mph when suddenly something blocks your path and the only choice is brake instantly. Whether it's controlled or not depends on the skill of the rider...If you have ever experienced this situation you know it's a fight or flight response .....Let's use the word "emergency" braking instead ...

[kingoffleece]

I practice all the time from 50-60-70-80 out on the back roads.
Only had to panic brake one time when I got it WAY wrong on a curve in WV.  My fault 100% but I saved it.

The practice may not be the same as an all out panic but it is experience none the less.

[Nic in Western NYS]

OP here, "panic" braking to me is you are riding at 60 mph when suddenly something blocks your path and the only choice is brake instantly. Whether it's controlled or not depends on the skill of the rider...If you have ever experienced this situation you know it's a fight or flight response .....Let's use the word "emergency" braking instead ...

So using "emergency" instead of "panic", here's the thing.  I've been riding for a while but compared with many of you, not so many miles (about 90,000).  I ride in a pretty paranoid style though I got pulled over for doing 90 once. If I can't see the road ahead of me, I assume some nasty hazard is waiting for me.  I totally understand that no matter how defensively you ride, a deer can bolt out right into your path and you can either get nailed by it or be in an 'emergency braking' situation.  I have not experienced a full blown emergency braking situation at highway speeds and I hope I never do because my attention would likely be 100% on braking and not on managing the scene around and behind me.
I am not confident that I would not go into 'panic' mode if the vectors of that deer and my bike intersected <100' down the road.  Maybe if I had the experiences and had done it a dozen times I would feel like ABS wasn't of any value for me.  To me, it's insurance in case my braking technique goes to heck due to panic.  This applies more so in the wet and in the dark when I can't judge traction conditions well.   

[John A]

When faced with a sudden life threatening situation some do nothing while their brain struggles to cope. I think mc riders get away from that behavior with training, experience and practice. I was cooking up I 5 ,in the rain to take the airport exit at Bellingham ,WA . So I says to myself they say these cast iron rotors are sposed to work well even wet and having been in the rain for the past 80 miles, they were wet. So maybe it's time for a simulated emergency braking fiasco. As I rolled of the freeway before I got to the oily area, I dynamited the brakes. Locked up both ends. OOPs. What surprised me was how long it seemed before I could get them released. Stayed upright, trusty Cal2

[Gliderjohn]

In an emergency it all comes down to muscle memory. Muscle memory comes from ongoing practice. Ideally we should all practice enough so that after an emergency braking we will realize that we didn't even think about braking at the time, the mind and body just did it and did it correctly.
The downside is that very few of us practice to that level including myself so I am glad to have ABS on my Norge. ABS may not be perfect but for most of us mortals it is better to have than not.
GliderJohn

[oldbike54]

 ABS is like a parachute . W/O either you may arrive at your stopping point faster , maybe not in such great shape 

 Dusty

[Arizona Wayne]

The bad side of things like ABS is you get lazy with having it and totally depend on it to make up for your lack of better riding skills.  It's an enabler.

[oldbike54]

The bad side of things like ABS is you get lazy with having it and totally depend on it to make up for your lack of better riding skills.  It's an enabler.

 You mean like a trike , or disc brakes , or good lighting , or , well , all of the other things that enable us to ride safely ?

 Dusty

[not-fishing]

Even in a "panic" stop Mike on a sports bike and UPRIGHT your problem wont be a front wheel skid/slide but a trip over the bars. The washout only happens when you are in the panic stop and try naturally to steeraway from the danger at the same time.

I prefer superman to highside or a lowside stuff under a car/truck/whatever.

I've superman-ed over the bars so as not to break my #1 rule Never hit anything solid with your body 

I had a buddy do the lowside stuff and I figure he would have been better off going over the car.  Then again I don't like to sitz-ski either - I always seem to find the rocks



Mark

[charlie b]

I admit I am not a great rider.  Only a bit over 100k miles in 20 some odd years of riding, most of that in cities/towns.  I've only had one emergency stop and one panic stop.  I kinda practice hard stops every now and then.  Did a track day once.

The emergency stop was on the Guzzi and I was shocked at the end that I did not lock up the brakes.  Dry pavement from about 40mph.

The panic stop was on the Honda NT with ABS.  Truck in front of me hit brakes hard where I wasn't expecting it.  Compounded cause I was preparing to go around him so I was too close and too fast.  The Honda's brake were much more responsive than the Guzzi's so I always used two fingers on the lever.  But, those two fingers grabed hard enough that the ABS kicked in and kept me upright as I swerved just a bit to miss the truck.

The ABS kicked in two more times on me as I approached intersections.  Sand.

I'd love to have ABS on the Guzzi.  I won't buy another bike without it.

Is it a crutch?  You bet it is.  But, how many of you experts can 'panic' stop on a wet road that has an oil spot on it? (you guys who have raced a lot need not respond, we know you are good, this is for the rest of us unwashed).  Or sand, or wet leaves?  Those are the times I would really like to have it.

BUT, I'd also like to be able to turn it off when I am on a dirt road, just as I'd like to be able to unlink my brakes when in dirt.  :)

[atavar]

ABS is like a parachute . W/O either you may arrive at your stopping point faster , maybe not in such great shape 

 Dusty

ABS does *not* stop you faster.  It *does* stop you straighter.

[oldbike54]

ABS does *not* stop you faster.  It *does* stop you straighter.

 Why I said without ABS the stop may be faster , like going whomp on the ground , which we all agree is never a good thing 

 Dusty

[Tobit]

In the rain.  On an interstate in Michigan.  It was a downpour and out of nowhere there was a tanker semi almost stopped in front of me and the LeMans IV.  Grabbed the hand lever and stomped the foot pedal as hard as possible.  With the linked brakes lightly lubed by water, there was no skidding and the bike dropped on it's suspension front and back and dug in.  Good thing my jeans were already wet (leaking aerostich).

I was impressed.  Fwiw, tires at the time were Metzeler ME-33 and ME-99.

Tobit

[Arizona Wayne]

In the rain.  On an interstate in Michigan.  It was a downpour and out of nowhere there was a tanker semi almost stopped in front of me and the LeMans IV.  Grabbed the hand lever and stomped the foot pedal as hard as possible.  With the linked brakes lightly lubed by water, there was no skidding and the bike dropped on it's suspension front and back and dug in.  Good thing my jeans were already wet (leaking aerostich).

I was impressed.  Fwiw, tires at the time were Metzeler ME-33 and ME-99.

Tobit

EXACTLY !     No ABS needed.  My maxi-scooters are the same way.