V7II won't start

[Kiwi_Roy]

The start circuit on these bikes (this applies to all the Guzzis I have seen) is really quite simple, lets start eliminating stuff.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Take about 3 feet of #16 or larger and prove the starter and battery are ok.

Unplug the purple wire off the solenoid (beside where the fat wire from battery connects). There is really no reason to pull the wire off but now there's no chance of
accidentally frying something elsewhere on the bike.

First make absolutely certain the bike is in neutral, we don't want to launch it down the road, you can pull the clutch in to make certain or have it on the center stand
so the back wheel is off the ground

With one end of the wire touching the spade connector poking from the solenoid touch the other end to the large terminal where the wire from battery connects or
to the battery terminal itself. You will probably get a small spark as you do this, make sure there is no gas around for obvious reasons.
Hopefully the starter will engage and spin the motor briskly proving beyond a doubt that the starter and battery are fine.
So now all you have to do is turn the key on and the bike will start and run.

To be continued.

[Kev m]

The start circuit on these bikes (this applies to all the Guzzis I have seen) is really quite simple, lets start eliminating stuff.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Take about 3 feet of #16 or larger and prove the starter and battery are ok.

Unplug the purple wire off the solenoid (beside where the fat wire from battery connects). There is really no reason to pull the wire off but now there's no chance of
accidentally frying something elsewhere on the bike.

First make absolutely certain the bike is in neutral, we don't want to launch it down the road, you can pull the clutch in to make certain or have it on the center stand
so the back wheel is off the ground

With one end of the wire touching the spade connector poking from the solenoid touch the other end to the large terminal where the wire from battery connects or
to the battery terminal itself. You will probably get a small spark as you do this, make sure there is no gas around for obvious reasons.
Hopefully the starter will engage and spin the motor briskly proving beyond a doubt that the starter and battery are fine.
So now all you have to do is turn the key on and the bike will start and run.

To be continued.

For those unfamiliar with this, Roy is basically using direct battery power (the heavy cable that goes from the battery to the starter circuit portion of the solenoid) to jump around the entire Starter Actuation (Starter Button) circuit.

I.E.

A relay (any relay) is basically a remote controlled switch. And the Starter Solenoid is just a big heavy relay that is (in most cases, including all modern Guzzis) mounted piggyback on the starter because it serves a second purpose of physically actuating the pinion drive, but that part isn't important right now.

Anyway a RELAY allows you to run a relatively small gauge activation circuit up to components like an ignition switch or starter button without having to run the BIG heavy gauge wiring from the battery, up to the switch, and down to the starter.

So you have two circuits on any relay.

1. The small Activation circuit. (starter button)
2. The large load Cranking main circuit. (starter power)

Basically the ACTIVATION circuit is what physically throws the switch (essentially just like when you turn on the lights at a wall switch of your house).

The small current from the starter button throws the Solenoid switch and connects the big heavy current from the battery directly to the starter which causes the Starter to Crank.

The activation circuit doesn't care where that 12 volts comes from.

So using Roy's test you completely bypass the ignition switch, fuse, starter relay, starter button etc. and just directly apply 12 volts (ironically from the large gauge starter circuit) to the activation circuit.

This should make the solenoid activate, throwing the switch on the big circuit, making the starter operate.

If it works in one fell swoop you've confirmed the Battery, Solenoid, and Starter are all good.

If Startus Interruptus (a problem with the activation circuit) EVER strikes anywhere (on the side of the road) you don't NEED to access the starter RELAY under the tank, all you have to do is jump between the starter ACTIVATION circuit on the solenoid and the main power supply to the solenoid and the bike will start. The traditional way to do this was with a large, thick screwdriver (with a wooden or plastic handle to isolate you from the current).

Make sense?

[swordds]

So who cares where the silly relays are?  You don't need them to start the bike. BMW airhead the gold standard? Perhaps 20 years ago. No ABS, traction control, EI, or FI. The V7II is the current gold standard, the airhead BMW should have made. Simple, basic, modern.

[sign216]

BMW airhead the gold standard? Perhaps 20 years ago. No ABS, traction control, EI, or FI. The V7II is the current gold standard, the airhead BMW should have made. Simple, basic, modern.

Of course I was referring to 20 yrs ago (actually more like 40 yrs ago) .  It's been that long since BMW made airheads,  and is on their new path, for better or worse.

The new needless complexity of BMW is what switched me to Guzzi.  The Guzzi 750 is a welcome throwback to old time cycles.  Especially the pre-2013 bikes.

[gorgegeezer]

Still not running, but maybe some progress:
Went from battery to solenoid - engine turns over
Removed fuel tank to access relays and connectors - start relay coil = 110 ohms.

Question - does removing the fuel tank disable the start circuit? That is, if everything was working correctly, with the fuel tank off, ignition on, push the start button - will the engine turn over?

Anyway, clutch switch, side stand switch, kill switch, all seem to be working ok - meter indicates they open and close with movement of the appropriate part.  Not so with start button - indicates open circuit regardless of button pushed or not.  Will pursue this next session.

On a different note, while tearing things apart, I noticed about a tablespoon of oil in the bottom of the air cleaner box. Element is dry. Seems like a strange place for oil. Any ideas?

As always, thanks for your help.

[Huzo]

Still not running, but maybe some progress:
Went from battery to solenoid - engine turns over
Removed fuel tank to access relays and connectors - start relay coil = 110 ohms.

Question - does removing the fuel tank disable the start circuit? That is, if everything was working correctly, with the fuel tank off, ignition on, push the start button - will the engine turn over?

Anyway, clutch switch, side stand switch, kill switch, all seem to be working ok - meter indicates they open and close with movement of the appropriate part.  Not so with start button - indicates open circuit regardless of button pushed or not.  Will pursue this next session.

On a different note, while tearing things apart, I noticed about a tablespoon of oil in the bottom of the air cleaner box. Element is dry. Seems like a strange place for oil. Any ideas?

As always, thanks for your help.

Just accumulation of oil mist, pulling the plastic plus off the end of the drain hose leading from the air box is a service requirement, if you look on the maintenance schedule, you'll see this mentioned.

[Huzo]

Sorry, plastic PLUG.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ok, now you have proven that the starter and battery are fine, let's see if the start relay is picking up.
Measure the Voltage at fuse C, usually there's a little bit of metal exposed at the back of the fuse, you may need to use a strand of
wire or something sharp to make contact. With the key On it should be alive and stay at 12 Volts when you press start.
If it goes from 12 to zero when you press start there's a bad connection upstream e.g. the key switch

Assuming you have steady 12 Volts at C
Pull the spade connector off the solenoid and measure for Voltage there, it may show up when you press start if there is a bad connection.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
How accessible is the ECU? Terminal 10 with the Black Green wire should be at +12 Volts with key On, the computer pulls it to ground when start is pressed
depending on the status of the interlocks also Input 19 Sidestand and clutch switch (7) & (27) Actually it gets a bit tricky here as the instrument panel has to
be happy as well, the neutral switch (36) has something to so with that. I'm not sure why the oil pressure switch (35) goes to the ECU

The Start button goes to input 5, that should go to +12 when you press the button, I see you are looking at that anyway.

I'd like to think the factory put some sort of logic diagram in the manual to explain all the interlocks, anyone?

Be careful when probing the ECU not to short an input or output to chassis, I would use something like a 10k resistor in series with the voltmeter probe all
taped up to prevent an accidental short , or perhaps a 10k resistor in series with an LED.

[gorgegeezer]

The problem was the starter button contacts.  The starter button has always required a very firm push to start. Much more normal feeling now. I think there was something in there from the factory that finally got into a position to prevent the contacts from contacting. A little filing, contact cleaner and compressed air and it's better than new.
For those of you who haven't had to go into the starter switch:
when you split the switch housing horizontally and you look into the lower half (with the starter button in it), that little silver screw you see in there is holding the starter button in place. If you remove that screw you can push the starter button into the housing and then there is enough slack in the wires to bring up and out where you can work on it.
Thank you for all the ideas and inspiration - this forum is a great resource!

[DaSwami]

To Kiwi_Roy:  Your posts in this thread aggravated my ADD, couldn't finish a one, but props to you.


gorgegeezer, I'm sure it's exhilarating that it was something so simple, but maybe a bit frustrating too.....very glad it was an easy solution...I hate electricity and wiring.  I could NEVER be an electrical engineer

[Kiwi_Roy]

...I hate electricity and wiring.  I could NEVER be an electrical engineer

So do most Electrical Engineers, they leave it to us Sparkies to troubleshoot.

I'm glad it turned out so simple, you learned out how to hot wire the starter along the way 

[Kev m]

George, well done!

Huzo, no drain plug on 1TB V7 airbox oil line. The box is set up to self drain through a check valve to the oil sump.

Some oil in the box is normal. After 10k miles I replaced my still dry air cleaner element and wiped the bottom of the box dry with a shop rag.

[sib]

George, well done!

Huzo, no drain plug on 1TB V7 airbox oil line. The box is set up to self drain through a check valve to the oil sump.

Some oil in the box is normal. After 10k miles I replaced my still dry air cleaner element and wiped the bottom of the box dry with a shop rag.

You're absolutely correct about no airbox drain plug, even though, amusingly, the service interval table in the owner's manual indicates that the "Filter box draining plug" should be cleaned every 10,000 km.  Go figure.

[Kev m]

You're absolutely correct about no airbox drain plug, even though, amusingly, the service interval table in the owner's manual indicates that the "Filter box draining plug" should be cleaned every 10,000 km.  Go figure.

Vestigial instruction?

Actually, I'm still a little confused by the system. The exploded view seems to shows each vapor hose attaching to its own nipple, each on one side of the airbox. Each seems to have some sort of filter element or separate chamber. Then each has a drain hose that runs back to a Y fitting and the sump.

Now that's fine. But when I opened the airbox for the first time finally this winter, it almost looked to me like the breather and drain hose from one side entered into the main chamber, and the other entered into a separate sealed chamber that I couldn't see or get to (without removing and maybe disassembling the box).

If that's what I saw I'm assuming that chamber isn't actually sealed and that the vapors can still get through to the main chamber.

Have you looked into this? Not important, just curious.

[Huzo]

Huzo, no drain plug on 1TB V7 airbox oil line. The box is set up to self drain through a check valve to the oil sump.

oh OK Kev, fair call, thanks mate

[sib]

Vestigial instruction?

Actually, I'm still a little confused by the system. The exploded view seems to shows each vapor hose attaching to its own nipple, each on one side of the airbox. Each seems to have some sort of filter element or separate chamber. Then each has a drain hose that runs back to a Y fitting and the sump.

Now that's fine. But when I opened the airbox for the first time finally this winter, it almost looked to me like the breather and drain hose from one side entered into the main chamber, and the other entered into a separate sealed chamber that I couldn't see or get to (without removing and maybe disassembling the box).

If that's what I saw I'm assuming that chamber isn't actually sealed and that the vapors can still get through to the main chamber.

Have you looked into this? Not important, just curious.

Clarification:  the blow-by and oil return circuits are different on the 1TB V7 and V7II models, even though the oil separator/airbox unit is identical.  On the V7 (not V7II), the blow-by tubes coming from the valve covers separately enter the oil separator which is molded into the front of the airbox.  Re-condensed oil leaves the separator via two separate drain hoses (one on the right front of the oil separator and one on the front left side of the separator), which merge at a Y connector, then flows through a check valve and back into the crankcase.  Any uncondensed vapors leaving the oil separator flow through a small (~1/4") hole between the oil separator and the airbox proper, where they mix with the main air stream and eventually enter the throttle body.
On the V7II, the blow-by tubes coming from the valve covers merge (apparently within a chamber in the top frame tube), and then a single hose carries the entire blow-by mix into the oil separator through the right side port that, in the V7, is one of the two drain ports used to carry the condensed oil back to the crankcase.  (The ports on the oil separator that the blow-by hoses are connected to on the V7 are blocked with rubber nipples on the V7II).  Finally, condensed oil leaves the oil separator via a single hose connected to the left side drain port of the oil separator, flows through the check valve and into the crankcase.  Excess vapors are vented into the airbox proper exactly like on the V7.
Hope this helps.

[Kev m]

Thanks for that. The V7 explanation sounds like what I saw in the exploded view. I must have misidentified what I thought was the inside of one of the vapor hose nipples in the air box.