Engine head temp sensor update - Crow for dinner, Humble Pie for desert

[twhitaker]

IIRC, you have a problem with the fuel level sender too? The connectors could be switched. This usually shorts out the sender & makes the pump work hard.

[normzone]

So, I decided to get internal, and check on my valves.

Plugs were obviously rich - no surprises, I guess.

And for the first time, the dreaded milkshake in the valve covers. The last ride was only a couple of miles, but not exactly a sign of running too warm either.

So I gaze at the temp sensor - black cable harness, blue AMP connector, wire clip, blue connector sticking our of brass sensor, going into black fitting into the head.

Black fitting does not look like plastic, but does not go ting! like the brass does when I tink on it.

I pulled the clip and the connector came off easily. The two contacts look clean.

Is that brass sensor the good stuff, or do I need to get surgical with the black housing it goes into?

Or do I add a resistor (have not searched out that link yet) and lie to the ECM ?

Replace the sensor? Wrap the engine in aluminum foil?

[Wayne Orwig]

Is the sensor broken or are you wanting to break something?

Find someone nearby to connect GuzziDiag to it and look for an actual issue. It easily just needs the TPS set properly. Or maybe someone at some point bumped up the trim setting too rich.

[rodekyll]

Brass sensor lug is the good stuff if available for the 90's EV.  Is your sensor in the valve cover?  It might not be the same as my '01 or '04.

A brass holder will will look like brass -- not black.  Use some heat sink compound (some use antiseize) to improve temperature sensing.  Be sure it's tight. 

Seriously -- something's wrong with your tuning.  Making it wronger by lying to the ecu isn't going to solve anything.  It's like solving the problem of bleeding all over the floor from your severed finger by putting your hand in a bucket.  Find the problem and fix it.  Chances are it's something simple like a mis-set tps or improperly synched throttle bodies.

What do you have to check the basics of tps and throttle synch?

[Huzo]

I see you guys speak of a temp sensor, is that the little black unit that hangs around near the back of the instrument cluster on my Norge? It's a small rectangular block about 3/4" x 1/2" with a small "nipple" thing on one end, ( sorry that's the only way I could describe it). Mine just hangs around inside the fairing and always has. Can someone tell me where it plugs in? I can't find a spot for it, and does it give information to the ECU or something over my head like that.

[ITSec]

I see you guys speak of a temp sensor, is that the little black unit that hangs around near the back of the instrument cluster on my Norge? It's a small rectangular block about 3/4" x 1/2" with a small "nipple" thing on one end, ( sorry that's the only way I could describe it). Mine just hangs around inside the fairing and always has. Can someone tell me where it plugs in? I can't find a spot for it, and does it give information to the ECU or something over my head like that.

That sounds more like the connector for the optional (EU only) TomTom GPS.

The temp sensors for the Norge are in the airbox and on the engine itself, not up near the cluster. I could be wrong, but then the universe would be askew...

[normzone]

[Huzo], I've no clue about a Norge, sorry. Mine on the Bassa is in the right cylinder head, inboard, at the rear.

[rodekyll], so since I'm already bullshitting the ECU with the Flower Expander III, adding injury to insult with the resistor is not adviseable? Okay.

I have nada to check the TPS and throttle sync with - I know threre's some threads here, and I do have a multimeter, but I know squat about those parts of the bike, last having done such stuff on my Eldo a few decades ago. I've always suspected somethin' ain't synchroed like it should be. Am I better off paying to have it done, or can a fellow such as myself figure it out? Do I need two tubes and a container of grenadine?

[Tom]

The name of the Chinese pilot says it all. Sum Ting Wong.
I'll get me hat..

Something more like "Sham min jai San Diego Kwai low.  Negah see fut." or loose translation "White boy in San Diego is f_cked."

[rodekyll]

PCIII?  Someone has already stuck your hand in the bucket.  There's nothing constructive you can do moving forward from this point.  You need to strip out all the bullshit, as you say, and establish the no-bullshit baseline for the bike.  Then if you still need a PCIII you can add it.  My bet is that you won't.

If you don't have the equipment and/or don't feel comfortable setting the tps/ecu trim and synching the throttle bodies, post your location.  Someone probably has the tools and experience that you need and maybe for a nominal fee will meet you somewhere and help you get set up.  Sometimes you can find a guy at a rally who'll sort it out for a good dinner and a tank of gas.
 
The baseline FI settings is the foundation upon which the power, economy, and performance of the bike is built.  It should not be guessed at.  Once set, it should not change by itself.   This isn't the sort of thing you need to do so often that you need to understand it to maintain the bike -- but it's something important enough that it must be understood and done properly.  So there's no shame (but a lot of reward) in hiring the job out.

[normzone]

I didn't get a real reassuring feeling from the fellow I bought the bike from in January 2014. I'd been driving all day and was pretty fried when I got there, and it was a quick exchange of money and stories. His tales of mechanical maintenance and the records he handed me were all okay, but when it got to talking about tuning the bike he said something like " I asked the expert at the shop who works on it, and he said it was good enough, leave it alone ".

That may be true, but I would like to know what map went into it. Any clues based on the year of install? The first owner did

"Map install" in November of 2002
Power Commander install in January of 2003

[rodekyll]

I have no clue.

[edit]

You have a P8 ECU.  It has a chip in it that is mappable.  Some people made custom chips.  If yours has one, it should be labeled as such.  Maybe one of our P8 gurus can help with that.  I have always thought the P8 was unnecessarily complicated and way too big, so I've avoided them.   have a 15M ECU.  It's a completely different animal.  So while I can give you advice on tuning yours, I don't know what goes into the mappy parts of the brain.

OTOH I've got a perfectly yummy moose chili going on -- just the right amount of feathers and claws.  If you want to swing the bike up this way you can have a bowl and some chili.  If you have to ask what is the proper amount of feathers and claws in a moose chili, maybe not.

[normzone]

[rodekyll], you know I rely on you for things like this. Don't make me ride all the way to Alaska and sort this out in person 

[John A]

It's not a P8 ECU, it's a 15M. No chip.🔬

[Wayne Orwig]

The 1999 Bassa may have the 15M ECU.
If the head temp sensor is a blue connector on the sensor, in a plastic piece in the RIGHT HEAD. You likely have a 15M. If it is the LEFT valve cover, it is the P8.
Leave the temps sensor alone until you know it is bad for a fact.
Get a tuneup , sync , and TPS set. You can do it yourself cheaply if you are willing to learn.
You have a PC III or some such gadget that hoses excess fuel in the engine. Don't tear off the temp sensor. Get it back to stock and get a proper tune.

[oldbike54]

 Norm , the couple of M15 ECU equipped bikes I've had experience with were not too bad from the factory . Get rid of the power subvertor and see how it runs .

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

Reading back I see the OP says the sensor is in the right head, inboard toward the rear.  That's the 15M sensor location.  Missed it earlier.  It puts me on more familiar ground though.

[pete roper]

A correctly set up PCIII can be an asset on a heavily modified bike. Look at Chuck's Scura RC. That thing is absurd! On a near stock Cali though it will achieve little. The 15M is a fairly straightforward device with a lot less of the interpolative features of later controllers like the W5AM or 7SM. It is also important that whoever installs it understands how it works and doesn't just stuff it on a dyno and do maximum power, full throttle runs and then just save the trims. In so many cases I've seen add-ons like PC's and other cruder devices strapped on to bikes that are just poorly set up. The end result is almost always that they drink fuel and underperform to buggery.

As others are saying. Take the PC off and get it properly tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. Make sure the engine temp sensor is sending an accurate signal any you'll most likely find most of your problems will evaporate.

pete

[Zoom Zoom]

Norm, just to add to what everybody is saying about the PC, it is very easy to disconnect out of the system. find the wire and unplug the ends. Plug the bikes connectors back together without the PC. That gets you back to a starting point.

What Wayne mentioned: the two connectors under the tank for the low fuel light and electric petcock are the same. One set of connectors have a red band around the wire. Those go together and the others go together. It could also be the bulb in the dash.

John Henry 

[normzone]

Norm, just to add to what everybody is saying about the PC, it is very easy to disconnect out of the system. find the wire and unplug the ends. Plug the bikes connectors back together without the PC. That gets you back to a starting point.
John Henry

So, just having set the valves and put new plugs in, I could safely pull the Trower Demander III and cruise around and see how it runs? I won't brainwipe the ECM or anything? And if it runs like crap and I reinstall the Glower Parameter III, would it pick up right where it left off, or would it require brainrinsing again?

[oldbike54]

 No issues simply binning the power mistruster . 

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

Yes.

The PC 'wedges' in between the ecu and the injectors.  It doesn't alter any other devices -- it just intercepts the signal from the ecu and modifies it according to its onboard map.  So you can plug it in or out and return it to whatever state it used to be in without affecting anything else.

[normzone]

Well, looks like somebody needs to go for a ride today. Good thing I have pants on. All I need to do is finish a couple of loads of towels.

[normzone]

Dowery Philanderer removal in process now - you guys didn't tell me I'd have to remove the battery, the ECM, and crab the frame to do it...

Okay - the unit in question has been removed, and the bike still runs. I'll top the tank and burn some miles then report.

If I don't make it back, at the service just say " he was almost weird enough ", and make a donation to the forum in my name.

[fotoguzzi]

Norm, surely there is a Guzzi guy in SD that can help you... for now I'd advise to stand away from the machine until you find a new friend with the knowledge of the 15M and tuner software.
did you ever visit Mark Ethridge? I know he's not next door but he can fix you up I bet..

[Tom H]

Marks in Signal Hill. It's about 90 minutes depending on where you are in SD. For that matter make it another 20 min, and I'll take a look at it.

I'm no expert, but with the help of the people here and GuzziDiag and a few cables, I have my 2004 EVT humming along pretty good. Just one more noise to find and remove and it will be perfect. The only complaint is the mileage, 3.08 gallons at 120 mainly freeway miles is about 38.9mpg. Would like it to be in the low 40's like my Eldo, need to work on that.

And you think the PC is a pain. I had to learn EFI and electric ignition, much less figure out that it had the wrong ECU and map. Once all the wrongs were righted, it really runs great!! And again, thanks to all who helped me!

Tom

[Zoom Zoom]

When I had one of those on my old EV, I had the plugs behind the side cover. Connecting and disconnecting was very simple. Should you decide to reconnect it, you might consider routing the plugs to a better location.

John Henry

[Chuck in Indiana]

Norm, surely there is a Guzzi guy in SD that can help you... for now I'd advise to stand away from the machine until you find a new friend with the knowledge of the 15M and tuner software.
did you ever visit Mark Ethridge? I know he's not next door but he can fix you up I bet..

Mark's a good friend and a good guy, but he thinks fuel injection and computers are the work of the devil. <shrug> He'll be not much help, honestly.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Wayne said,

Leave the temps sensor alone until you know it is bad for a fact.

Pay attention. It can be broken by a wayward glance.

[normzone]

Alright - I'm back. I was hoping that removing the Joker Tormenter III would have some effect other than leaning out the mix, but not apparently so at this writing. I'll ride it like this until I decide otherwise, but my fuel economy test changed nothing.

Full tank, north on the 15 with a bunch of people flying along, so speeds were not conservative.

Impressions...

1) It has less power. Well duh, that was expected. It still has plenty of power, it is just a little less than a scalded cat than it was.

2) It SOUNDS leaner. I know that's probably not possible, and maybe wholly subjective and placebo-like, but that's how it feels to me.

3) Another odd thing - fifth gear is more...accessible. Used to be it didn't feel right until ninety or above, now at 80 or above it seems appropriate. No idea what to make of that. Maybe see number 2).

4) The fuel economy did not change. I did 92 miles on 2.796 gallons, for an estimated 32 miles per gallon. That might be a little better than before.

So I don't think it has the right amount of feathers and claws yet.

 

[pete roper]

No, it really needs a proper tune. Until thats done you're pissing in the wind.