Author Topic: A question about relays (Read 6603 times)

canuck750 · « **on:** May 22, 2016, 10:43:09 PM »

I installed a pair of relays to switch the high and low beam on my V7 Sport today, been putting it off for two years but knew it was something I should do. I also fitted a 30 amp blade fuse between the battery and the fuse box to protect everything down line from a short circuit.

Now that I finished that project I was wondering if fitting relays to the signal light switching was a useful thing to do?

The signal light switch on the Sport is an original CEV unit and though the left flasher circuit works good the right is often erratic at best. Would relays improve the function and is there enough draw on the signal lights to make a difference.

I committed myself to getting the V7 Sport dialed in on all fronts this spring to have as dependable a rider as possible for the summer. I think getting the electronics working reliably is the last hurdle. I want to put some serious miles on the Sport this summer.

Thanks in advance for the advice,

Jim

rodekyll · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2016, 11:07:51 PM »

yes, the relays you installed are a good idea.

Did you do a load calculation to see if a 30 amp fuse is good enough?

No, the turn signals would not benefit from a relay. They would more benefit from a good cleaning -- sockets and connectors. They'd really "shine" if you then swapped out the 40 or so watts of incandescent turn signal bulbs for a half watt of LEDs and an LED flasher unit. 1156 and 1157 based LEDs are getting dirt cheap.

$0.02

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2016, 11:08:51 PM »

A pair of relays probable would improve the situation but it would make it a bit complicated.
The flasher would feed the 30 contact with 87 feeding the lights, the coil would be powered by the switch.
Another way of reducing the current thru the switch would be converting the lights to LED

canuguzzi · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2016, 11:11:09 PM »

Curious, how does adding a fuse before fuses protect anything past the fuses? Are you trying to protect the set of fuses using the 30amp fuse?

canuck750 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2016, 11:12:07 PM »

Thanks guys,

Are LED bulbs, and flashers available from auto parts supply stores or are these specific to motorcycle applications?

nc43bsa · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2016, 11:57:55 PM »

The 30A fuse seems a bit large.

12VDC x 30A = 360W.

Do you have that much load on the lighting circuit?

rodekyll · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2016, 12:23:52 AM »

Quote from: canuck750 on May 22, 2016, 11:12:07 PM

Thanks guys,

Are LED bulbs, and flashers available from auto parts supply stores or are these specific to motorcycle applications?

I ebay mine or go with one of the lighting shops like DDM Tuning. Be sure the flasher is indeed an LED flasher. Don't buy a bulb longer than your space. Get the same color bulb as your lens.

rbm · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2016, 07:26:12 AM »

The signals might hyperflash if relays were to be used to replace the bulbs because the flasher relay would not be sensing the same current draw (it would be fooled into thinking a light bulb was burnt out). The same happens on some vehicles when replacing the incandescents with LEDs.

Certainly, relays are a way to manipulate high current circuits using low current control circuits, but the flasher relay is exactly that for the signal circuit.

LaMojo · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2016, 07:53:34 AM »

I'd leave the signal circuit alone since it has a intermittent current draw. Not enough to be concerned with. The biggest problem would be having a dirty or corroded contacts in the switch and relays won't help that.

charlie b · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2016, 07:55:49 AM »

I got my LED "bulbs" at the local auto store. Like RK said, check the length just to be sure they will fit OK.

Antietam Classic Cycle · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:12:22 AM »

Clean the contacts inside the "snuffbox" switch. If that doesn't do it, I sometimes apply a little dab of conductive paste such as Kopr-Shield.

canuck750 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2016, 10:16:30 AM »

Thanks for the tips. going shopping for bulbs

canuck750 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:02:16 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on May 22, 2016, 11:07:51 PM

yes, the relays you installed are a good idea.

Did you do a load calculation to see if a 30 amp fuse is good enough?

No, the turn signals would not benefit from a relay. They would more benefit from a good cleaning -- sockets and connectors. They'd really "shine" if you then swapped out the 40 or so watts of incandescent turn signal bulbs for a half watt of LEDs and an LED flasher unit. 1156 and 1157 based LEDs are getting dirt cheap.

$0.02

I found 1156 and 1157 Phillips LED bulbs today, RED for the brake tail light and clear for the signals (no amber available), the kid at the store didn't know anything about a special flasher to use with LED lights. Tomorrow I will try an automotive electrical shop.

canuck750 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2016, 12:47:14 PM »

I installed the RED tail/stop, brighter

The amber signal bulbs

and this flasher that I was told mates to the signals

But when I connect the flasher I get nothing at all, no light or flash

When I re-install the original silver metal cylinder one with the three prongs (I only use two prongs) the light come on bright but they flash very fast

Both flasher are three prong, I have not been able to find a two prong, is there a wire I am missing for the third prong of the flasher (ground??) and does anyone know what the correct flasher would be to use with these LED lights?

Old Jock · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2016, 01:37:53 PM »

First I agree there is no need for an additional relay on the signal circuits only the flash relay itself

From my experience the difference between a 2 prong relay and 3 prong relay is the third prong is a ground for the relay

I have no idea what type of relay that is but it does state LED so it should be an electronic type but I cannot say for sure.

I'd wait for somebody to confirm (or otherwise) but I reckon you have 3 choices.

1) Get a 2 prong electronic from E-Bay or the likes I'm in the UK and doing a "2 prong electronic flasher relay" threw up a load of 3 prong types but many 2 prong types also.

Many of the 3 prong types can be used as a 2 prong but I'd ask the question or confirm from the description, if you go down that route.

2) In the meantime try grounding the 3rd prong, but make sure you are connecting the correct prongs to the relevant connection, they are not mix and match as I recall & it is only my best guess from my experience with flasher relays

The increased flash rate is a typical symptom of not enough load on an old mechanical type relay.

Your final alternative is to install load resistors but that to me would be a last resort, they just waste power and get hot.

John

rodekyll · « **Reply #15 on:** May 28, 2016, 02:58:24 PM »

A traditional flasher unit is a bimetal strip with mechanical points. It trips to flash when the heat of the electrical load bends the bimetal strip.

An LED flasher unit is a timed switch that operates on a clock tick rather than heat and load. This is because LEDS don't create enough load for a traditional flasher (evidenced by your rapid flashing -- as though a bulb were out (less load)). LEDs are therefore flashed with a timer.

In a traditional flasher we only need two lugs -- one for (+) supply and one out to the 'load' or in your case, blinker lights. This is because the circuit itself becomes the timer.

In an LED flasher, since we really have two things going on -- the timer and the load -- we need a third lug for an independent ground to make the timer part work.

MOST flashers (and really most relays) come with numbered lugs and a map embossed or printed on the casing that tells you where the wires go. They may look like (several choices):

power B + 15 30

load L - 1 87

ground = (actually three lines) G E

Also, the grote stuff is pretty mainline. You should be able to get pinout maps on the internet by searching the part#.

canuck750 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 28, 2016, 04:18:04 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on May 28, 2016, 02:58:24 PM

A traditional flasher unit is a bimetal strip with mechanical points. It trips to flash when the heat of the electrical load bends the bimetal strip.

An LED flasher unit is a timed switch that operates on a clock tick rather than heat and load. This is because LEDS don't create enough load for a traditional flasher (evidenced by your rapid flashing -- as though a bulb were out (less load)). LEDs are therefore flashed with a timer.

In a traditional flasher we only need two lugs -- one for (+) supply and one out to the 'load' or in your case, blinker lights. This is because the circuit itself becomes the timer.

In an LED flasher, since we really have two things going on -- the timer and the load -- we need a third lug for an independent ground to make the timer part work.

MOST flashers (and really most relays) come with numbered lugs and a map embossed or printed on the casing that tells you where the wires go. They may look like (several choices):

power B + 15 30

load L - 1 87

ground = (actually three lines) G E

Also, the grote stuff is pretty mainline. You should be able to get pinout maps on the internet by searching the part#.

Thanks RK, as usual a very thorough and clear explanation!

Cheers

Jim

centauro · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2016, 04:24:01 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on May 28, 2016, 02:58:24 PM

A traditional flasher unit is a bimetal strip with mechanical points. It trips to flash when the heat of the electrical load bends the bimetal strip.

An LED flasher unit is a timed switch that operates on a clock tick rather than heat and load. This is because LEDS don't create enough load for a traditional flasher (evidenced by your rapid flashing -- as though a bulb were out (less load)). LEDs are therefore flashed with a timer.

In a traditional flasher we only need two lugs -- one for (+) supply and one out to the 'load' or in your case, blinker lights. This is because the circuit itself becomes the timer.

In an LED flasher, since we really have two things going on -- the timer and the load -- we need a third lug for an independent ground to make the timer part work.

MOST flashers (and really most relays) come with numbered lugs and a map embossed or printed on the casing that tells you where the wires go. They may look like (several choices):

power B + 15 30

load L - 1 87

ground = (actually three lines) G E

Also, the grote stuff is pretty mainline. You should be able to get pinout maps on the internet by searching the part#.

Brilliantly explained, RK!

Canuck, those electronic flashers come in 2 types: one is simply a heavy duty modern one for conventional bulbs; the other is specifically for LED bulbs. I bought the LED type by mistake at a local auto parts store when I was rewiring the conventional signal bulbs (with 4-way feature) on my son's Eldorado, with the same results you did. I returned the flasher to replace it with the conventional-type electronic flasher and it all works perfectly.

canuck750 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2016, 04:39:17 PM »

Taking RK's advice I found the wiring diagram on rote's home page, as stated I need to add a dedicated ground

http://www.grote.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/01-4411-02_F_Web-Image.pdf

rodekyll · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2016, 06:22:18 PM »

Thanks. I try to write clearly when I have to.

Let us know how the dedicated ground works for you.

johnr · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2016, 06:54:26 PM »

I'm a bit concerned about the 30A fuse. That's 60A fast blow if it's US standard, but even its a 30A fast blow it's a pretty big fuse. Maybe the wiring would go before it would?

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2016, 11:49:38 PM »

Quote from: rbm on May 23, 2016, 07:26:12 AM

The signals might hyperflash if relays were to be used to replace the bulbs because the flasher relay would not be sensing the same current draw (it would be fooled into thinking a light bulb was burnt out). The same happens on some vehicles when replacing the incandescents with LEDs.

Certainly, relays are a way to manipulate high current circuits using low current control circuits, but the flasher relay is exactly that for the signal circuit.

The idea is to use the relays to act in place of the switch contacts,the flasher still caries all the current.

canuck750 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2016, 11:09:18 AM »

Quote from: johnr on May 28, 2016, 06:54:26 PM

I'm a bit concerned about the 30A fuse. That's 60A fast blow if it's US standard, but even its a 30A fast blow it's a pretty big fuse. Maybe the wiring would go before it would?

Hi John

The V7 Sport riders manual lists the main fuse as 30 Amp all other at 15 Amps. I got a tip a while back from a Guzzi Guru to install a 30 Amp in line fuse between the battery and the fuse box as a precaution and one that is readily visible and easy to swap in the event of a short in the system. Fiddling with relays, flashers etc, I have found I have a short somewhere in the white black wire that is serving either the electric fuel valve or the oil pressure switch, until I found where the hot was shorting to the frame I kept blowing the 30 Amp - I use the ones that lite when blown so it was a very quick and easy means of realizing I had an issue. Today I ground the LED flasher and trace the black/white wire short. I want to keep this Sport stock but I just hate the Euro style fuses in the fuse box. I may just remove the stock fuse box and store it and fit a modern style blade fuse box like I did in my Eldorado.

canuck750 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2016, 02:25:22 PM »

I added a dedicated ground to the flasher and now the signals flash at regular rate and the lights are nice and bright, Thanks RK!

And I cleaned the CEV switch contacts with a brass brush and the headlight switch while I was at it, no more intermittent flashing! Thanks Charlie!

Another small annoyance fixed and another lesson learned, a double win.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2016, 07:20:39 PM »

A good source of LEDs and flashers www.superbrightleds .com

https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/motorcycle/

I like the 194 Wedge Base bulbs
I literally buy these by the hundred they run on AC or DC so not polarity sensitive, great for idiot lights.
I don't use no stinking lampholders just glue them into the fitting and solder wires direct to the lamp.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-wedge-base/194-led-bulb-1-led-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/197/849/

rodekyll · « **Reply #25 on:** May 29, 2016, 07:50:05 PM »

I use the glue and solder approach too. People get too darn fussy about that kind of stuff. LEDs aren't going to wear out in my lifetime, so I solder up the wires, slap a dollop of GOOP on the back of the bulb and stuff it in the hole. By the time I'm done with the beer the GOOP is set and I can get on with life.

I am running all LED dash lights on the trike. I got RGB 5mm dies so I can have up to three indicators in a single hole. They're all being glue and soldered. Since they are really BRIGHT, I added a resistor to each anode (each color needs a different value) to drop them to a tolerable daytime level. For night I have the common ground running through an A/B switch. in "A" the ground is direct and operates the daylight intensity. IN "B" the ground goes through a 100kohm resistor to drop the intensity to a night level.*

*this switch also changes the instrument backlighting.

Lesman · « **Reply #26 on:** May 31, 2016, 04:09:56 PM »

Your relay question kinda evolved into a LED turn signal setup question. I've run dual relays for my headlights on 3 bikes . A GSPD, DL1000 and a Quota. I made the one for GSPD and the Quota. I bought a Eastern Beaver setup for the DL1000. If you have all the "stuff" make it . If not the Eastern Beaver setup is a good value. It takes off the strain off your starter switch and your lights are brighter. The fuse should be no more than 10-15 amps for a 55 watt bulb. The Eastern Beaver setup has slimmer Panasonic relays than the standard Bosch type relays. One is not superior to the other, it's just preference.
I'm running LED turn signals on my Quota. I bought a 2 plug LED blinker relay setup that fit into the existing Guzzi turn signal blinker relay. It also has a ground wire. If your Guzzi only has "one" blinker indicator light. Your blinkers will stay on and not blink.
I stole these ideas from KLR guys. If you remove your indicator bulb, the blinkers will work. I did this for a while until I found the second solution. I am bit hazy on the details. I cut one wire to the indicator light. I made it a ground. I put 1 Diode on each of the 2 wires going to the indicator light. Both ends of the diodes are twisted together and soldered one wire with a plug for the other indicator wire. I'm a firm believer in not cutting factory wiring harnesses. The blinker indicator wires are not part of the main wiring harness. I don't remember the size of the diodes. A buddy gave them to me.People sell thses setups for $6-20 on ebay, etc. Good luck

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2016, 05:35:41 PM »

Quote from: Lesman on May 31, 2016, 04:09:56 PM

I put 1 Diode on each of the 2 wires going to the indicator light. Both ends of the diodes are twisted together and soldered one wire with a plug for the other indicator wire.

:1: When I wired the Eldorado I used an LED on the dash and even that was enough to drive the Lamps on the wrong side.
The double diode fix works well.
Any small silicon diode will do

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Author Topic: A question about relays (Read 6603 times)

canuck750

canuguzzi

canuck750

LaMojo

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canuck750

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