Author Topic: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?  (Read 20879 times)

Offline redrider90

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2016, 11:19:07 AM »
Actually it is.  The double Cardan joint, like in most Guzzi rear drives, is a CV joint.  In any double Cardan joint system, when the input and output shafts are parallel, or if their angles are the same, the input and output shafts runs with smooth rotation (CV).  The double Cardan joint in many Guzzis is a CV joint.

Again, the Wikipedia article "constant-velocity joint" explains it well.


Well what is my split drive shaft with a carrier bearing on my 4X4 called?
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RogerGuzzi

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2016, 11:23:28 AM »
Aside from engineering considerations, a Guzzi with a belt drive wouldn't be a Guzzi.

Offline bad Chad

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2016, 12:41:59 PM »
Yes is would.  Guzzi has made tons of chain drive bikes, so going to a belt seems like a none issue.  But for my two cents, I love the CARC.  It works great, and in my OP looks cool!
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2016, 01:05:11 PM »

Well what is my split drive shaft with a carrier bearing on my 4X4 called?

That's as good a name as any.   :grin:  My motor home has three drive shafts and four U-joints, all aligned for constant velocity.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2016, 01:58:29 PM »
An updated 500 single.  Fuel injected, turbo charged belt drive bike would work.  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:  The Carbineri would love it for their enforcement work.
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Offline rboe

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2016, 02:30:57 PM »
They could call it the "Centipede"......  :boozing:

500 single would be the bomb. Wonder if it would sell though.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2016, 02:50:51 PM »
How's about a 650 single.  Counter-balanced crank.  Make it an updated horizontal single w/suspension and other parts.  Dual purpose set-up with tubeless tires.  :thumb:  Would they sell?  Yeah.....more so than a baby Stelvio.  Roll cage the engine.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2016, 02:57:18 PM »
How's about a 650 single.  Counter-balanced crank.  Make it an updated horizontal single w/suspension and other parts.  Dual purpose set-up with tubeless tires.  :thumb:  Would they sell?  Yeah.....more so than a baby Stelvio.  Roll cage the engine.
We don't need no stinkin counter balance crank, give me a big (650) horizontal single like an old bacon slicer.
I want it to vibrate, Belt drive, kickstart, now were talkin.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2016, 03:17:15 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2016, 03:23:44 PM »
We don't need no stinkin counter balance crank, give me a big (650) horizontal single like an old bacon slicer.
I want it to vibrate, Belt drive, kickstart, now were talkin.

 :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 04:17:16 PM »


Update the whole bike.  Bump up the metallury.  Fuel inject it.  Removable horizontal crash bar around the cylinder.
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉 Hawaii.

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2016, 04:35:01 PM »
And watch it sink without trace :rolleyes:

oldbike54

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2016, 04:38:14 PM »
And watch it sink without trace :rolleyes:

  :1: And then show up 10 years later on E bay advertised as "rare" , or "collectible"  :rolleyes:

  Dusty

Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2016, 05:45:49 PM »
 :grin: :grin: :grin:  Only conjecture here.  Obviously the company is going with other engine configurations.
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Offline keener

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2016, 09:17:57 PM »
My Griso is my first Shaft Drive bike  / CARC  and i fricken love it ...why change , why even question a change ?
I guess really good design and reliability are passe now ...i dont get it...
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Offline Bulldog9

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2016, 12:31:00 AM »
Only if they want to guarantee people like me will never buy another. I've exclusively ridden shafties since 1984.
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Offline kirb

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2016, 07:41:00 AM »
As others have pointed out the longitudinal crank in the current motor requires the drive to be turned through 90* to make the back wheel go round. This can either be done at the rear wheel or at the gearbox. While doing it at the gearbox will allow less unsprung weight you will still get the mechanical losses of the 90* change of direction and then will add further losses from the belt or chain rear drive.
...

I have no real problem with modern chains, they are robust and very long lived if you maintain them properly and that is hardly a chore. I have no experience of belts but they seem to work in the applications they are used in. At the end of the day though a decent reactive system like the CARC is, IMHO, the best compromise for cleanliness, ease of maintainence and performance for a machine like a Guzzi.
...

Pete

HD and Buell have had belts for a long time. I owned a Buell for 11 years and the belt looked like new. The only belt failures I have heard of are Uly owners who managed to get a rock between the pulley and belt. Belts are a PITA to change on most of those bikes. Most of the big cruiser guys don't worry about the belt until 30k miles or later. Ducati has also adopted a belt on the XDiavel.

Chains are fairly efficient and can transfer some major horsepower. I suspect more efficient than a 90deg bevel drive. Motus has been doing this exact thing to save on weight: http://www.motusmotorcycles.com/

 

Offline leafman60

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2016, 08:33:24 AM »
Big singles are not big sellers nowadays.

Offline Cool Runnings

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2016, 08:49:12 AM »

Well what is my split drive shaft with a carrier bearing on my 4X4 called?

Muffler bearing.  :popcorn:

Offline bad Chad

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2016, 10:30:38 AM »
And watch it sink without trace :rolleyes:

Absolutely.   After the first 30 were sold to hundreds clamoring for such a bike, they wouldn't sell another!
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Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2016, 01:17:37 PM »
and.......like that would stop Moto Guzzi.   :shocked:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉 Hawaii.

Offline mjptexas

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2016, 02:23:40 PM »
....The bike could handle like a feral shopping trolley with a wonky wheel... ..

My dear man, you certainly do know how to turn a phrase. :thumb:
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2016, 05:04:10 PM »
and.......like that would stop Moto Guzzi.   :shocked:

Yes, it would, in this decade.   Since Piaggio took over, for better or worse, things have changed.  The v7 series has been a hit.  The 1400s a work in progress, but certainly not a flop.  There have been no sales flops introduced that I can think of since Piaggo took over.  This an't your uncles Moto Guzzi!
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Offline Tom

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2016, 06:22:49 PM »
Their dealer support still sucks.
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Offline N97972

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2016, 10:23:11 PM »
Update the whole bike.  Bump up the metallury.  Fuel inject it.  Removable horizontal crash bar around the cylinder.

Now that would be a bike that would replace a few in my garage! light and simple to work on, perhaps so good you wouldn't have to work on it.

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Offline Bulldog9

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2016, 11:13:11 PM »
As long as we're telling Moto Guzzi how to design their products, I would like to have a shaft drive with a genuine constant velocity joint instead of a U-joint.  The latter, as I recently learned, does not have a constant output velocity when the input velocity is constant.  Instead, the output rotation rate has an superimposed sine component whose amplitude depends on the angle between the input and output shafts.  This apparently is the primary reason why such drives need cush rubbers, to absorb the rotation rate variations.

What? Any joint design/universal/constant velocity will have some level of vibration, and FWIW, a 'u joint' is a constant velocity joint.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 11:37:36 PM by Bulldog9 »
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Offline Dogwalker

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2016, 03:57:43 AM »
Update the whole bike.  Bump up the metallury.  Fuel inject it.  Removable horizontal crash bar around the cylinder.

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2016, 05:22:19 AM »

 The Guzzi already has a right angle drive...it's the ring and pinion at the rear wheel. So in theory the right angle could be at the tranny and belt or chain then used to drive the rear wheel with same number of gears...

Offline Dogwalker

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2016, 05:28:08 AM »
The Guzzi already has a right angle drive...it's the ring and pinion at the rear wheel. So in theory the right angle could be at the tranny and belt or chain then used to drive the rear wheel with same number of gears...
That way the power dispersion of the chain, or of the belt, must be added to that of the bevel gear.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 05:28:37 AM by Dogwalker »

Offline sib

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Re: Should Moto Guzzi consider a belt in place of the CARC shaft?
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2016, 07:44:35 AM »
What? Any joint design/universal/constant velocity will have some level of vibration, and FWIW, a 'u joint' is a constant velocity joint.  :popcorn:
Sorry, a U joint is a constant velocity joint only when the input and output shafts are perfectly aligned.
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