Leaky rear-2001 EV

[drburt]

Time to start repairs on the "new" 2001 EV. About 45k miles (assumed) on bike.
The rear drive is leaking out of the bottom onto the wheel. Definitely not from drain plug.





I checked the rear drive oil from the level plug hole and about an ounce ran out. Stinks. Dirty.
I checked the transmission oil from the level plug hole and it was barely overfilled. Smells like regular oil. Clean.
Hoping it's not from tranny output. Hoping that since the leaking oil stinks so much it's only from rear drive.
I am by no means an experienced lube sniffer.
I've searched the archives. Just wondering if there's any fresh advice.
Thanks,
Brent

[oldbike54]

 Probably just the big seal .

 Dusty

[twhitaker]

There is a second smaller seal inside the final drive. If it is the leaker the inside of the spline that couples to the tire will be washed out by the leaking oil and that oil will splatter all over the inside of the housing. The big seal leak will exhibit a drip at 6 o'clock.

[drburt]

Thanks guys. Have no local dealers to work with, so I'm waiting for one of the distant dealers to work me up a rebuild parts list. I'll repost with list and see if you think I need more or less.
Haven't taken it apart, but definite 6 o'clock leak, starting to sling . Guess I'll park it. 

[twhitaker]

You won't know if it's a big seal leak until you remove the tire. From the outside, a small seal leak looks just like the other.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

If it's the big seal, it can be replaced with the drive in place, takes less than 30 minutes. Buy the brown Viton seal.

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=79_234&products_id=2853

[drburt]

Thanks all.
I was just  going to get all seals/gaskets/orings for the rear drive, then tear it apart. Sounds like the wise thing to do is take off the rear wheel and see. Just for fun and experience.

[bmc5733946]

This generation of drive units had a problem with the smaller of the two ring gear bearings.  I have seen between six and ten where the needles fractured and escaped the retaining system into the gears with the resultant damage.  If the smaller seal is leaking the bearing is suspect and should be replaced.  I normally pull the pinion housing and closely inspect the pinion gear for damage.  Found it first on a Quota then shortly after on my own Jackal, several more after that.  All have been in the 1999-2002 range.  Guzzi knew nothing about this!  All the ones I found were out of warranty.

Brian

[drburt]

Yeah, Brian, that sort of thing is what I wanted to make sure wasn't happening.

3 hours later I finally get the wheel off. Had to swing the left Hepco mount out and remove the rear drive completely.

I have pictures, I'd like to put it back together and ride. I'll post the pics in a minute.

What reassembly grease readily available at O'Riellys or Autozone should I use on the splines of the shaft and gear on wheel?

I'll be searching for the grease answer, but I'm losing daylight.
Thanks,
Brent

[pehayes]

Your profile doesn't show where you are located.  If you're going to do the inner seal, you might need some special pullers or at least special experience and it might be good to have someone with experience nearby.  Make sure you understand which way the inner seal has to reside in the housing body.

Regarding the destruction of the inner bearing, I just did one of those for a friend on a 98 EV this past weekend.  Needles were apart from the cage and all fell out independently.  Fortunately I had a new one on the shelf.  The bearing's inner race was very badly pitted and flaked.  That bike has only 30K miles.

You say the transmission level is normal and the rear drive is over-filled.  I'd like to hear how that happened.  Either someone over-filled the rear (a logical reason why it is leaking).  Or, the transmission passed oil to the rear drive and someone topped up the transmission.  Who has been servicing the parts previously?

You had to remove the rear drive to get the wheel out????  Did you try deflating the tire?  Did you have someone to help you lean over the bike by about 45 degrees?  It is wise to periodically remove the rear drive to lubricate the input splines and certainly easier to work on if you do more than just the outer/big seal.  However, you shouldn't need to remove the drive box to get the wheel out.  Just a matter of technique.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drburt]

Patrick,
  I've added Amarillo, Texas to my profile, so it shows up now.
Today's project was just an exercise in taking the wheel off to see what the leak looked like and take some pictures.

I didn't hear anything funny (to my untrained ear) in the rear drive while rotating the shaft so I hope that means I don't have any bearing issues (yet). I might look into a rebuild this winter.

Yes. Transmission was a tad over. Not pouring out of level check hole, just seeping a bit onto a rag after opening level check hole. 1 oz of rear drive gear oil came out of level check hole of rear drive (checked after some was lost by leakage, don't know how much lost though).
I just bought and picked up this bike last Saturday from Af1 in Austin. I have no clue who overfilled. I didn't notice the leak when I picked it up. I rode it in 100 degree heat for 2 days and 600+ miles. I emailed the previous owner the other day to just find out if there are any known issues that I should take care of and I received no reply.

Yes. I had to remove the rear drive and I did deflate. Working by myself, but able to lean the bike pretty well, but to no avail without removal. Good practice on getting the rear drive out though. Not much more work to do to remove. Any gotchas about reinstalling ? I did wait until the wheel was totally installed before tightening up the 4 nuts on the shaft housing.

I greased the splines and teeth on wheel and rear drive with Valvoline DuraBlend Moly grease and refilled rear drive with 250ml of Valvoline DuraBlend 80W-90 limited slip gear oil (GL-5)
I sure hope that's acceptable grease and lube!
I haven't taken the bike out yet. Too late. Pictures to follow.
Next worry - tiny clearance of side of tire and center stand
Thanks,
Brent

[twhitaker]

Another way to gain some space for tire removal would be to stack some boards under the center stand legs. Not sure that would work in this application but it does on my '96.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yes. Transmission was a tad over. Not pouring out of level check hole, just seeping a bit onto a rag after opening level check hole

No big deal.

1 oz of rear drive gear oil came out of level check hole of rear drive (checked after some was lost by leakage, don't know how much lost though).

As Patrick says, if the rear drive is overfilled.. as it heats up it will force oil past the seal.

[LowRyter]

you might re-fill the rear with correct amount (and not over fill it) and see if that cures it.

[pehayes]

refilled rear drive with 250ml of Valvoline DuraBlend 80W-90 limited slip gear oil (GL-5)

You should either use Guzzi's own rear drive lube or use a Moly additive in other rear drive lubricants.  There is a lot of sliding action between the pinion and crown gears inside the rear drive and that is what the Moly protects.

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=4541

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Next worry - tiny clearance of side of tire and center stand

Tiny is OK. Rubbbing is not.  Tires vary and another brand may fit better.

If it bothers you, you have several corrective actions.
1) you could just add a thin spacer washer between the wheel's hub and the axle bushing inside the center of the rear drive.
2) you can easily remove the rear drive center bushing and use a lathe to fabricate one a few MM longer.  Careful that it doesn't impact the brake anchor or caliper carrier on the other side.  The center bushing is just a simple interference fit in the rear drive and can be easily punched out with a properly sized step punch.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drburt]

twhitaker: I started to try the 2X4 thing and couldn't comfortably do it by myself. Got scary. Thanks though! May go for some Harbor Freight lift thing if this becomes a habit.

Chuck, lowryter: no leak yet since the refill!! Rode about 40 miles on highway and 15 in town.

Patrick: I'll be ordering the correct lube and moly tomorrow
Tire is not rubbing! Wouldn't ride it if it was (for sure).
Right hand side - 3.5mm to center stand, 2.14 to drive tube
Left side - 2mm to center stand
Pirelli Sport Demons - 140/80 VB17 M\C 69V
It's odd that the Pirelli website doesn't even match up any tires with the 2001 EV.
As long as there is no danger with the small clearance (no rubbing) I'll just ride 'em till I need new ones and deal with another brand or 130s.
Interesting/helpful reference that I found in this forum on the subject of tire size
http://www.foreven.com/motorcycles/Tyres/MgCali1100.htm

Thanks All!

[twhitaker]

I have a bunch of 1 x 6s left over from a privacy fence job that work well, stacking as many as 10. Learned the trick at the dealer.

[drburt]

Spoke too soon...Drip

[LowRyter]

twhitaker: I started to try the 2X4 thing and couldn't comfortably do it by myself. Got scary. Thanks though! May go for some Harbor Freight lift thing if this becomes a habit.

Chuck, lowryter: no leak yet since the refill!! Rode about 40 miles on highway and 15 in town.

Patrick: I'll be ordering the correct lube and moly tomorrow
Tire is not rubbing! Wouldn't ride it if it was (for sure).
Right hand side - 3.5mm to center stand, 2.14 to drive tube
Left side - 2mm to center stand
Pirelli Sport Demons - 140/80 VB17 M\C 69V
It's odd that the Pirelli website doesn't even match up any tires with the 2001 EV.
As long as there is no danger with the small clearance (no rubbing) I'll just ride 'em till I need new ones and deal with another brand or 130s.
Interesting/helpful reference that I found in this forum on the subject of tire size
http://www.foreven.com/motorcycles/Tyres/MgCali1100.htm

Thanks All!

been there, done that  (unfortunately   )

[drburt]

Well, since I'm leaking again, here are pictures of the rear drive when I took it apart before the cleanup and refill. I don't feel like taking it back off yet (even though I'm sure the source of the leak might be clearer).







So...Can you look at these pictures and tell whether it's the big seal or the little seal?
First picture rotated somehow and left side of picture is the bottom...but y'all knew that...
(As stated earlier, I plan on sending it in for a complete r&r this winter if I can just get it sealed back up for the rest of the summer and fall)
(please be big seal please be big seal please be big seal)
Thanks all,
Brent

[bmc5733946]

If it is wet inside the splines it will be the small seal.  First thing I would do is pull the pinion carrier out and examine the pinion gear for damage, if undamaged, continue with repair, if damaged, buy used rear drive and motor on.

Brian

[pehayes]

Lots of oil inside the splines.  Time for the inner seal.   Don't be surprised if you find the roller bearing is bad.  Is there anyone nearby with experience to help you?  Pulling the outer race of the inner bearing can be tricky.  Most use an oven to heat it out.  I made a puller tool.  Do you have access to a lathe?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drburt]

Brian: looks like the small seal to me

Patrick:
Thanks for the confirmation. No Guzzi experience nearby that I know of.
Albuquerque -286 miles
Dallas - 366 miles
I have an auto mechanic friend.
I have access to machine shops if that's what you mean by a lathe (why a lathe?).
It's starting to sound like willingness and common sense aren't enough to do this right.
I have no mechanic training. I'm a Telecom tech. Electronics background.
Is this something that you think I need to take care of right now?
Should I safely be able to wait until the dead of winter to take it off and send it to someone that knows exactly what to look for and what to do? (And who might that be?)
Thanks,
Brent

[pehayes]

I have an auto mechanic friend.
I have access to machine shops if that's what you mean by a lathe (why a lathe?).
Is this something that you think I need to take care of right now?
Should I safely be able to wait until the dead of winter to take it off and send it to someone that knows exactly what to look for and what to do? (And who might that be?)

Good that you have some general automotive experience nearby.  Might have some useful tools.
Lathe to make a simple punch for safely removing that tube/core from the rear drive housing.  It just punches in and out but you can't risk distorting the ends.  I made a nice punch.  I can give you dimensions to fabricate a duplicate.  Trivial few minutes of lathe work.
What is your household and marital status?  Anyone complain if you put this drive in the oven and made some oily smoke in the kitchen?  Might stink more than a day.  Do you have access to a little toaster oven that you could use outdoors?  Gas BBQ might even work.  You only need about 250F.  Lots of people just heat the drive to get the outer race to just fall free.  Tricky to pull the race without a specialty puller.  Inner race of the bearing is on the stem of the crown gear carrier. Usually a simple two-jaw gear puller removes that.  Should have a press to reinstall the new inner race.  If the bearing is fine you can ignore the inner race.  However, the outer race has to come free in order to access the seal which is why we're going here in the first place.

We can coach many more details when you're ready to go.  You could wait, but you'll continually have a messy rear wheel.  Meanwhile, you might get some on the brake disc if it gets excessive.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[bmc5733946]

As I said before I would first pull the pinion carrier out and inspect the pinion for damage.  You may need to clamp the pinion splines in a vise to pull the gearbox off the pinion, a rubber mallet might help.  If that small seal is leaking there may already be damage from the bearing coming apart, that damage will most surely be to the pinion.  I know that the pinion has nothing to do with the small seal but it comes out rather easily and will carry the evidence of bearing damage that indicates further damage deeper inside.  The damage to the gearset, if present, will determine the usability of the drive unit.  It makes little sense to me to pull the entire drive box to bits unless you know it's usable.  Ymmv.

Brian

[drburt]

Brian: I couldn't agree with you more. Seems like great reasoning on this. I did look at the pinion, but did not inspect it thoroughly. It didn't strike me as damaged, but I'll truly inspect it on next rear drive removal. Would there be any type of damage that wouldn't be real obvious that I should look for? (remember, I'm not a trained mechanic)

Patrick: Yes, please supply dimensions/specifics of punch. I'm married, but even I don't want to stink up the house. Gas BBQ grill-Yes.
Thank you for the offer of coaching - that's definitely what I need, along with some specialty tools that will work.

Check out this website. Not the exact model but it looks valuable to me for detailed instructions
Is it good information?
http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/index.php?p=finaldrive

Thanks again!
Brent

[bmc5733946]

That's a pretty good write up!

Brian

[drburt]

Regarding the roller bearing issue, ...why?
1. Original defective? If so, is there an improved version?
2. Factory assembly defective?
3. Normal for it to destruct and just needs periodic replacement (hopefully caught before damage)? If so is there an improved version?

Is this typical wear on the pinion?




Thanks guys,
Brent

[bmc5733946]

It looks okay to me, photos are hard to analyze though.  Look in the gear tooth root area for any damage.  The areas of the tooth that are not polished from wear appear dull and possibly slightly distressed, you shouldn't be able to snag a fingernail on them.  Inspect each tooth in turn.  Take a good look at the crown wheel/ring gear in the same way.  The needle roller is in the case beyond the crown wheel.  The reason for the damage to the needle rollers is unknown by me.

What follows is not science!!!!

 My old friend the gear cutter said that sometimes moly additives may collect in certain places and actually build up on a needle or rolling bearing element surface causing binding and breakage.  He stated that if the gear set had moly in it once that was usually enough and didn't usually need constant dosing.  Moly supposedly plates and infuses it self to other metals.  He thought that MG's insistence on moly at every change was a bit of over kill, he also said that he definitely would not add more than was recommended.  In this case, more is not better.  This is all opinion of course and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Brian