Leaky rear-2001 EV

[pehayes]

Patrick: Yes, please supply dimensions/specifics of punch. I'm married, but even I don't want to stink up the house. Gas BBQ grill-Yes.

Here is the punch I made to remove and reinstall the axle guide in the rear housing.  Punches in and out easily.





Note that even the written work instructions do recommend sending to someone experienced when you do the inner seal.
Note #2.  I can't get with or accept the instructor's use of inner and outer.  To me, the smaller bearing and seal are down deep INSIDE the drive and hence I refer to them as the INNER components.  Reverse of what the instructions say, just so you don't get confused.

Regarding the oven.  I did it once in the house and shortly after fabricated a special puller on my lathe.

There isn't really any room below the outer race of that inner roller bearing.  No place to grip the race.  Below the race is a bronze washer which is #11 on the pencil explosion diagram and a portion of "Q" on the photographic diagram.  That bronze washer keeps the rollers from moving laterally and you don't want to damage it.  Gripping it with a 2 jaw puller might make that damage.  You need a puller more like blind bearing puller which grips that bronze washer but does so over almost all of its surface area to spread load.  Something more like this but of larger diameter to grip the race or roller washer:



I could do pics and dimensions of my puller, but it was a lot of lathe work and perhaps there is something on the market or easier to make.  That's how the factory tool works.  The race is usually not very tight in there.  A little heat would make pulling easier.  Once the race is out, pulling and replacing the seal is trivial work.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drburt]

I can't thank you guys enough for your willingness to help.
Patrick, Thank you so much for the dimensions of that punch (and your advice). I'll get one made up ASAP.
Here's my shopping list (left column is item number on diagram).
I put the prices in there just for fun.
Different suppliers are highest on some items, while cheapest on others (with some large differences in some cases).

I figure all seals
27 90417085 Large seal                               $30.59 to $47.25    
10 90413850 Small seal                               $12.24 to $18.26    
24 17350700 Paper gasket (2 each)            $0.93   to $2.60
16 90706584 O-ring Gasket 58,42x2,62 (2 each) $0.80   to $2.60
 
This copper washer just in case.
11 12351100 RING COPPER METAL SPACER        $6.37   to $19.42    

I'll get the needle bearing and seats just in case. Do you think I'll need the ball bearings too?
12 92254340 Roller bearing 40x55x17            $25.44  to $78.33
26 92201070 Ball bearing 70x110x13           $58.27  to $165.70

Do you think I'll need to readjust with the spacers between the paper gaskets?
Any other parts to order just for the sake of putting fresh parts in?

I'll also get "approved" 80w/90. I already have some moly additive.
I've seen a couple from well known suppliers -
Moto Guzzi Gear lube (with Moly)
80W-90 Bel-Ray Hypoid (non-synth)
AGIP Oil 80w90 Gearbox Oil

Any suggestions on the lube and parts?

Thank you!
Brent

[drburt]

Okay. Here I go.
Starting the tear-down of the rear drive.
Took the 8 bolts out of the cover that holds the large seal (blue locktite on threads, someone been in here before?).
Can't get the cover off. Trying to rotate by tapping a piece of wood.
Don't want to pry.
No go. Tricks? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Brent

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Okay. Here I go.
Starting the tear-down of the rear drive.
Took the 8 bolts out of the cover that holds the large seal (blue locktite on threads, someone been in here before?).
Can't get the cover off. Trying to rotate by tapping a piece of wood.
Don't want to pry.
No go. Tricks? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Brent

I use a 3-legged gear puller with the hooks facing outward and just catching on the drive splines.

[LowRyter]

Patrick Hayes is a good guy.  Helped me with that ridiculous EV taillight (twice).  Met him at Iowa Rally and thanked him.  Should've brought him a scotch.

[drburt]

Charlie,
  I can't get my el cheapo gear puller to fit well enough between the drive splines and the wheel spindle guide. The puller legs are too fat.
Any other tricks?

Thanks,
Brent

[pehayes]

Okay. Here I go.
Starting the tear-down of the rear drive.
Took the 8 bolts out of the cover that holds the large seal (blue locktite on threads, someone been in here before?).
Can't get the cover off. Trying to rotate by tapping a piece of wood.
Don't want to pry.
No go. Tricks? Suggestions?

Maybe some heat on the plate to soften whatever is holding it?  Maybe someone else used sealant on the gaskets?  I hope not.  I'd get bold with the wooden punch and whack a little harder than tapping.  Keep us posted.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Charlie,
  I can't get my el cheapo gear puller to fit well enough between the drive splines and the wheel spindle guide. The puller legs are too fat.
Any other tricks?

Thanks,
Brent

Make the punch and drive out the wheel spindle guide straight away.  Gives more room for puller tools.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Make the punch and drive out the wheel spindle guide straight away.  Gives more room for puller tools.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

My Craftsman 15mm 1/2" drive socket is the perfect o.d. to drive the spacer out. But, the legs of my Harbor Freight puller fit without removing the spacer.

[drburt]

Yeah, Patrick, I thought about the heat. I bet that blue loctite has it glued together. I'll try low heat with a heat gun first. Then I'll whack it harder if need be.
LOL on making room by removing what's in the way (spindle guide). One of those forehead slapping moments after you mentioned it.

Charlie, I figured out the 15mm socket punch too. Removed the spindle guide (carefully!) and still having a hard time getting the puller legs to grab right.

I'm going to heat and beat and see how that goes.
Thanks guys,
Brent

[drburt]

Got the cover off. It took high heat of a heat gun to separate . No gasket sealant, just oil soaked paper gaskets holding it on tight.
The cage that holds the needle bearings was not holding them anymore, but they were held in place by the outer and inner race and the cage.
The inner race was a challenge to remove from the drive flange. Had to do some creative grinding on my el cheapo gear puller and clamp a support to the opposite end of the flange to give the puller screw something to press against through the hole.

Curious about the needle bearing cage and some wear on the races. I have replacements so it's just a curiosity.
Is it the nature of some needle bearing cages to be built where they just hold the bearings in place when only in the races, or is this just normal wear to lose their standalone holding ability?
Look at the pics of the races and the wear on the inner and outer edges. Is this normal?








Thanks!
Brent

[pehayes]

I have seen that type of wear on several rear drives.  Just change the bearing and races.  Looks like your outer race for the needle bearing was loose and easily removed from the casing.  Normally they require heat and/or a puller.  Pay attention to the orientation for that smaller/inner seal.  All should go back together easily after cleaning.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drburt]

I haven't pulled the outer race yet. Hoping it doesn't put up much of a fight.
Thanks for the tip on the smaller seal orientation.

When pressing in races and bearings, should the contact surface between race/bearing and what it is pressed on to be lubed or dry.
A quick general internet search says lubed surfaces...agreed?
(I do realize the needle bearings do not get pressed in)

Thanks!
Brent

[Wayne Orwig]

When pressing in races and bearings, should the contact surface between race/bearing and what it is pressed on to be lubed or dry.
A quick general internet search says lubed surfaces...agreed?
(I do realize the needle bearings do not get pressed in)

I've had problems with that inner bearing race walking up out of the aluminum housing on a couple of bikes. I heat the case a LOT and get the race out. Replace the seal and washer. Clean it up and again get the case real hot. Then wipe a bit of mild loctite on the surface and press in the new race.

[drburt]

Thanks OMG!
So you're for no lube.
I'm assuming that the race migrated towards the smaller seal since it looks like it initially is in contact with the drive flange.

Thanks!!
Brent

[pehayes]

I'm assuming that the race migrated towards the smaller seal since it looks like it initially is in contact with the drive flange.

Just the opposite.  When you install the outer race of the roller bearing, I believe it should go flush to the aluminum housing.  It looks like yours has walked proud of the housing by 1/4".  That means it walked AWAY from the smaller/inner seal.  That seems like an awful lot of movement.  I'm not sure it is possible with all the parts in place properly.  It may be that your outer race is sooooo loose in the housing that it pulled up slightly when you removed the crown gear and hub.  It might only be finger tight or less.

Waiting to hear what you feel when you try to pull that race.  Yes, clean and LocTite on reinstallation.

As for the seal, your eyes are inside the oil chamber.  Thus, when looking at the seal you should be seeing the inside of the lips and the circular coil spring.  You should NOT be looking at the numbers on the outer face of the seal.  That face goes down and in first.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

In this photo, the outer bearing race appears to be WAY up out of the case.
When I have had that happen, the bearing also has failed. That lets things move around, and the seal leaks.

I don't know if the race moved, and caused the bearing to fail. Or if the bearing failed and caused the race to move. But it the bearing is replaced and the race LOCKED down, I never see a repeat failure.
Luckily. As a loctited in race will be a pain to get it the next time.

[drburt]

I didn't try real hard to pull the outer race out with my fingers, but with the modified el cheapo puller I only had to turn the puller screw with my fingers and the race came right out. Pretty loose!

I'm going to guess that the outer race had to pull out during disassembly. I don't see how it could be that far out when there's a ledge around the base of the inner race on the drive flange that would stop it. Logically to me the 2 races and the bearing cage would all be flush with each other on their edges.

So...I'd been looking at this website for reference. Note that the instructions are for "All 850/1000 models. Mine is a 2001 EV 1100 but I would assume the theory is the same.
http://www.livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/index.php?p=finaldrive

Step 9 of "Dismantling the Bevel Box" - "Important � make a note how far end of roller bearing outer race Q protrudes from its recess, if any." (No telling where mine was or should be since it was out of place)

Then look at "Bevel Drive Box Reassembly" - It goes into detail on how to get the proper depth on the outer race to avoid binding and insure correct alignment.

Are these procedures on the above mentioned website valid? or somewhat a waste of time?

Thanks guys!
Brent

[pehayes]

Wow, that seems like a lot of repeat effort.  I get the logic of placing the race precisely so there is no chance to float.  Not sure how you're going to do that while the LocTite starts to set up on your race. I'm not an expert.  I've always just seated the race flush.  Maybe someone else has factory training and can opine for precision. It is odd that the very precise instructions for assembling all of the parts to get precision in spacing do NOT include installation of the two paper gaskets.  They surely have a thickness input.  If I were to follow those directions, I would just set up the puller to pull in on the splined hub itself using that as a press against the roller bearing race.  Test for crown gear tightness with the puller loose, pull a half turn on the hub, test again for tightness with the puller loose, repeat until the crown wheel feels free.  BTW, that 'half turn' on the puller bolt is going to produce variable results based on the pitch of the thread of the puller tool.  So much for precision.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

I always just set it flush. That race is a good bit wider than the bearings so it should be fine.
And it is of course critical that ALL shims and ALL paper gaskets go back to locate the crown gear the proper distance.

[pehayes]

I have an old EV drive in pieces in the shop.  I fired up the lathe and made a purpose designed press/puller for setting the roller bearing outer race the way that the reassembly instructions from here http://www.livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/index.php?p=finaldrive describe how to do it.  My puller was designed using a 3/8 X 24tpi bolt.  Thus, as instructed, one-half turn would be 0.021".  This particular drive was apart, but had not been fully disassembled previously.  The edge of the outer race was standing 0.020" proud of the surrounding aluminum casting; essentially the way it came from the factory.  Using a race remover,  I lifted the race about 1/4", not all the way out.  Now, following those elaborate instructions above, I re-seated the roller bearing outer race using the crown gear carrier and outer face plate as instructed.  I disassembled again and found the roller bearing outer race back at 0.024".  All that work for 0.004" variation.  I'm njot sure I can actually measure that accurately.  Just drive the damn thing flush!

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drburt]

Patrick, it is unbelievably cool that you performed that experiment!
Flush it is.
Thanks guys. I should be finishing this up in the next few days.
 
Brent

[drburt]

Loctite/Permatex -
Should I use Blue for the inner and outer needle bearing races?
While searching for the correct Loctite I find that there is Threadlocker and also Retaining compound.
Retaining compound looks like it is exactly what's needed to hold the races, but I can only find threadlocker at the common places (auto parts stores). What should I try to get?

Blue is what was on the 8 cover bolts. Use the same for the cover bolts again?

Seals -
Lube them up with 80w-90 for ease of pressing in place? Hints? Techniques?

Large roller bearing -
Lube  for ease of pressing in place or Loctite outer where it presses into cover?

Torque on cover bolts-
I don't find a torque recommendation in the shop manual. I see 40 to 42 Nm (29.5 ft lbs) for the bolts that hold the crown gear on the "drilled shaft" (FWIW I didn't remove the crown gear from the drilled shaft. Seems kinda loose for the cover. Quick internet search shows max torque for an 8.8 grade 12mm bolt at 59 ft lb and for a 14 mm at 101 ft lb (cover bolts are 13mm, but not listed on the internet torque chart). Torque suggestions?

Thanks all,
Brent

[Tom H]

Umm...if I read you right. The bolts are NOT 13mm, that is the head size. The bolt is M6 6mm M8 8MM if I remember right. Torque is about 30# or less in aluminum.

Check Benders site, or search WG. Somewhere is the spec for M6 M8. My Eldo's shop manual did not list a torque for the 8 cover bolts.

Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Loctite/Permatex -
Should I use Blue for the inner and outer needle bearing races?
While searching for the correct Loctite I find that there is Threadlocker and also Retaining compound.
Retaining compound looks like it is exactly what's needed to hold the races, but I can only find threadlocker at the common places (auto parts stores). What should I try to get?

Blue is what was on the 8 cover bolts. Use the same for the cover bolts again?

Seals -
Lube them up with 80w-90 for ease of pressing in place? Hints? Techniques?

Large roller bearing -
Lube  for ease of pressing in place or Loctite outer where it presses into cover?

Torque on cover bolts-
I don't find a torque recommendation in the shop manual. I see 40 to 42 Nm (29.5 ft lbs) for the bolts that hold the crown gear on the "drilled shaft" (FWIW I didn't remove the crown gear from the drilled shaft. Seems kinda loose for the cover. Quick internet search shows max torque for an 8.8 grade 12mm bolt at 59 ft lb and for a 14 mm at 101 ft lb (cover bolts are 13mm, but not listed on the internet torque chart). Torque suggestions?

Thanks all,
Brent

I made a driver for the small seal, usually apply a little WD40 so it slides into place easily. The big seal I drive in dry or if the surface is "boogered up" by someone else, a light coating of Permatex 300.

Heat the cover/flange and chill the big ball bearing - it'll go in a lot easier. Same goes for the case and outer race of the needle bearing - heat case, chill race. I use Loctite 609 Retaining Compound on the needle bearing's outer race only. Nothing on the inner race.

Cover bolts are M8-1.25, not M13. Factory torque spec. is 18 ft. lbs. I use Threebond 1342 Low-Strength Thread Locker and DIN 137 wave washers on the bolts (M8 x 25 grade 8.8).

I apply a light coating of Permatex 300 to the case, both sides of the cover shim and cover.

YMMV.

 

[drburt]

Thanks Tom! Yeah you read me right. LOL I know I realized that correctly in my mind at one point in my life.
I'm obviously not a mechanic, but I get it now.

And as I'm writing this I see that Charlie answered my other questions.
Thanks Charlie!

[pehayes]

I feel compelled to make a follow up comment about Brent's photo of the roller bearing outer race which is standing perhaps 1/4" from the casting.

That position for the bearing race is NOT POSSIBLE during running operation.  Brent's race has moved during the disassembly process.  It can't possibly take the photographed position with other parts in place.

In an above comment, I described following the installation instructions from another website.  Using those instructions, the roller bearing outer race gets installed standing approximately 0.020" proud from the casting.  The race can NOT come further out from the casting because a lip on the splined central hub creates a travel limit.  In the above instructions, the splined central hub becomes the 'press' tool to seat the roller bearing outer race.  When that hub is installed it creates a travel limit for the roller bearing outer race.

The installation instructions referenced above, ask you to reach in the pinion input hole and try to turn the crown gear by a finger.  Won't turn?  Why?  The 'why' is because this 'lip' on the splined central hub is pushing against or binding against the roller bearing outer race and causing binding friction.  So, the instructions ask you to reinstall your pressing tools and add about 1/2 turn of pressure to slightly press the outer race a little deeper.  Keep going in half-turn increments until the crown gear moves freely to finger touch.  The free rotation of the crown gear means that the lip of the splined central hub is no longer binding or pressing against the the roller bearing outer race.  With a small variation for tool thread pitch, the 'half-turn' increments of pressing represent about 0.021" per increment.  If one half-turn of the press tool frees up the crown gear, then the internal free space can only be a maximum of 0.021".  I verified on my drive that the 'normal' position for the roller bearing outer race is about 0.020" proud of the casting.  Thus, if the race loosens in the casting and tries to 'walk', the most it could move is to collapse this 0.021" spacing.  Certainly nothing like the 1/4" shown in Brent's photo.  Actually, the free space could be slightly larger because the installation instructions do NOT include the use of two paper gaskets.  Those gaskets in stalled in final closing of the case would add a few thousandths more to the free space between the splined central hub and the roller bearing outer race.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[normzone]

This is my absolute favorite way to work on a motorcycle - watching a group of Guzzistas address an issue that I might have to do someday on my '99 Bassa from the comfort of my desk. Thanks much, fellows, for all the advice.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  When I have leaky rear problems, I eat bananas and stay near a bathroom facility.

[drburt]

Should I replace the 8.8 bolts?
If I replace the bolts, is there a problem with using 10.9 bolts.
The bolt stores around here only carry 10.9. AutoZone *does* carry 8.8.
I never know when some obscure (to me) engineering property might come into play regarding the bolt strength or stretch ability or who knows what.

So far - big ball bearings pressed in with little effort with the heat/chill method.
Inner race pressed on nicely. Used the old inner race to finish pressing it all the way after getting it flush with the spindle on the crown wheel assembly.