Poor Starting Frequently

[Kev m]

There is raw gas at the point where my vents enter the canister. That's why I was thinking maybe the canister is flooded?

You still haven't given us a history of the bike.

1. In a crate till 3 months ago, not canister.

2. Sold in 13, mostly sat with full fuel tank and temperature swings, sure, maybe canister.

But even then, honestly, rich is good for cold starts. It shouldn't crank forever and not fire. It should fire and stumble.

[rodekyll]

It's on the very outside kinda maybe possible to flood a carbon can if you overfilled the gas tank, had no venting working, and managed enough pressure to back up a pint of gas into the evap loop.  But if that was a reasonable possibility, everyone with the cans removed would have a pint of gas on the garage floor since there'd be no can to catch it, and that doesn't happen.

Even if it did, this is part of the vent system.  It vents.  That means that the gas would evaporate and get sucked into the throttle bodies and burned (as designed).  The holes in the TB spigots the can hoses connect to are about 1mm in diameter, so anything -- raw gas, fumes, vapors, air . . . anything -- is going to get pulled into the intake very slowly.  Not enough to affect starting or running.

If you are concerned about flooded cans (again -- never seen it despite some folks' claims of having a cousin once who saw someone talking to someone who claimed it) you can attach an air hose to the fuel tank side and blow a 50gal tank of air through it on a 3# regulator -- just enough to circulate air.  The air will evacuate anything in there.  Of course running the bike for an hour will do the same thing.

But given your symptoms I really think you're focused on a non-issue.

Have you used the 15-sec rule?  I have one bike that won't start (cold in the morning) on the first punch of the button unless I give it 15sec between turning on the ignition and trying the starter.  The conventional wisdom says that's because the ecu has to poll its sensors and make startup decisions based on temperature and such.  Starting it before the ecu sorts itself out is like trying to start me before I've had my coffee.  There's going to be a fight and I'll be grumpy about it.

[robdrobd]

Well,  they're is no way I wait 15 seconds to start it, maybe I'll try. I bought the bike from Kentucky in March with 650 miles (right after its initial break in check up). Brought it back to NY and it drove and started great for two months. In June it was very warm for Syracuse. It would start in the morning (55 degrees ), but by the end of the day it would not start when I came home from work (85 degrees). Is been unseasonably hot since then, and about 75% of the time now it is a total b$!ch to start. I've changed oil, replaced plugs, purchased a new battery, and tried ten different kinds of gas octane levels. A friend mine said to stick a finger in the exhaust hole because that gets lots of things started.   

[Kev m]

Nah, with all due respect to RK (who knows a ton), no 15 seconds is required on the V7 Stone... Not mine at least.

[BoatDoc]

A frustrating problem, for sure. I have a 2016 V7II and one morning had difficulty starting. They definitely run lean. Someone on the forum recommended advancing the cold start lever. Hmmm, since they have not put those on in a few years the next best thing was to turn the handgrip the smallest amount. That did it and she fired right up. Something simple to try. Lots of folks have commented about the improved starts with the new mapping, so that is probably a worthwhile upgrade.

One thing that jumped out at me; "run the highest octane gas in my area." That actually may make it harder to start. Octane retards ignition. Use the lowest octane fuel that does not cause pre-ignition. The V7 is supposed to run with 90 minimum, so find some 90 or alternate 91 and 89 as you fill up in the future. As long as the bike doesn't knock or ping you are fine. Not that Syracuse is very high, but theoretically you can lower the octane as the bike goes up in elevation (something like one per 3000 feet). I used to own an airplane that required a minimum of 73 octane. When we used "mogas" (87 octane autofuel) it was easy to start (hand propping was required). When we had to put in 100LL she was always harder to start.

[kingoffleece]

If this persists and you can't get it right go to Jim Hamlin in Danbury, CT.  About 5 hours from you.
It'll be fixed in a day.

I'm in Buffalo and it's where I go for all my work.  Long way but he's a top notch wrench.  I'm riding my Norge there in a few weeks for tires and basic service.  I ride my V7 there for the same also.

[robdrobd]

If this persists and you can't get it right go to Jim Hamlin in Danbury, CT.  About 5 hours from you.
It'll be fixed in a day.

I'm in Buffalo and it's where I go for all my work.  Long way but he's a top notch wrench.  I'm riding my Norge there in a few weeks for tires and basic service.  I ride my V7 there for the same also.

Isn't there a Guzzi dealer in Buffalo?

[beetle]

For a quickie test, pull the main fuses or disconnect the battery for a few minutes. This will reset the auto trims. If it is a troublesome map causing this, this will set the fuelling to factory default.

[robdrobd]

Battery was changed two weeks ago. Had zero effect on the poor Starting.

[beetle]

Has it done it ever since you've owned it? Have checked to see if there's any oil in the airbox?

[rodekyll]

Nah, with all due respect to RK (who knows a ton), no 15 seconds is required on the V7 Stone... Not mine at least.

It's not required on the trike, either.  In fact that one works best if I punch the starter before the fuel pump stops priming.  So less than 3sec.  But for that first start of the day the Convert insists on every bit of 15.  If I get impatient it punishes me by running rough until I stop it and start it again.

[pat80flh]

""There is pressure in the tank"". Fuel pump is running on intial start..

So, after you shut down, open the gas cap, is there a "swoosh" noise, or any indication of air pressure in the tank?

Maybe take a picture of the spark plugs and post it, if its an evap issue the plugs would be showing rich.

[kingoffleece]

Yes, there is.

[Aaron D.]

Not a Guzzi but a Piaggio-our Vespa ET4 had starting-and eventually running-problems that actually were caused by the charcoal canister system. I suspect the scooter was overfilled, and the lines to the canister were blocked. This was a carbed bike though.

[beetle]

Despite rodekyll's protestations, get rid of that canister. It doesn't add anything to performance, and is just another potential source of vacuum leaks.

[Mike Tashjian]

I think there has to be some basic diagnostics performed here.  Is your bike not starting because it is lean or rich?  Is the evap system adding fuel or not?  I like to  smell the exhaust pipe if a bike cranks for any amount of time or pull a plug.  Checking the spray pattern on an injector by spraying a piece of cardboard is quick and easy. Also easy to see if it is leaking.  From your description of harder starting in the heat of day, I would be looking at too much fuel.  Mike

[John A]

I was taught that the correct procedure is to cycle( turn off then on) the kill switch after a failed start. The theory is that it resets the ECU, but I don't know if it actually does that.Works for me. The symptoms suggest a problem with the engine temp sensor to Dusty and meself. Use GuzziDiag to check then report back please.

[rocker59]

Well,  they're is no way I wait 15 seconds to start it, maybe I'll try. I bought the bike from Kentucky in March with 650 miles (right after its initial break in check up). Brought it back to NY and it drove and started great for two months. In June it was very warm for Syracuse. It would start in the morning (55 degrees ), but by the end of the day it would not start when I came home from work (85 degrees). Is been unseasonably hot since then, and about 75% of the time now it is a total b$!ch to start. I've changed oil, replaced plugs, purchased a new battery, and tried ten different kinds of gas octane levels. A friend mine said to stick a finger in the exhaust hole because that gets lots of things started.   

Do you add throttle when cranking, or are you just pushing the start button and not touching the throttle.

I would roll in a little throttle, while cranking, to see if it will help.

You really should consider getting the bike to a competent mechanic who can check the EFI and update it as needed.

[Kev m]

You really should consider getting the bike to a competent mechanic who can check the EFI and update it as needed.

I agree that someone competent should look at it.

But I can't stress enough that THIS ISN'T A SIMPLE MATTER OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL MAP (#3523V&149, unless it was corrupted somehow) and the new MAP (#352BV738). I had the original map for a couple of years and though it NEVER had a problem starting (it had a problem maintaining cold idle and sometimes stalling after startup, but it always fired up).

[robdrobd]

It's hot today and the bike did not start. I pulled plugs and they are not wet and seem to resemble nice firing plugs in IMO. However, there is still gas nearly dripping from the evap cannister. This afternoon I'm going to disconnect it quickly and see what happens. My question is this. I only have two hoses going into my canister and both are coming from the throttle body junction. None of the hoses going into the can seem to be coming from the tank. Could this be the problem? Diagram of my bike shows one hose coming from bottom of tank and one coming from throttle Junction. My bike has to hoses coming from throttle Junction area and connecting to canister. That's it.

[Wayne Orwig]

Disconnect the two hoses at the throttle bodies. Cap them temporarily on the engine side.
I saw this an a Breva. The tank was overfilled. That saturated the canister. In hot weather it pushed fuel into the lines going to the engine. In hot weather, the engine does NOT want to start with that excess fuel.

[timonbik]

Save yourself a lot of aggravation.  Disconnect the fuel canister.  I have the exact same problem with the Breva  had the same problem with a Ducati.   Fuel in the canister, whether over filled or not is vapourizing  and throwing off and confusing the fuel injection system.  It is not electrical as the plugs aren't wet and the bike turns over.  It is not mapping as the bike starts fine when it is cool outside.  I find my Breva is a hard start especially when it is parked in the sun and will often find fuel on the ground below the overflow.  DISCONNECT the cannister and I'm quite confident your problem will be solved!!!

[robdrobd]

Save yourself a lot of aggravation.  Disconnect the fuel canister.  I have the exact same problem with the Breva  had the same problem with a Ducati.   Fuel in the canister, whether over filled or not is vapourizing  and throwing off and confusing the fuel injection system.  It is not electrical as the plugs aren't wet and the bike turns over.  It is not mapping as the bike starts fine when it is cool outside.  I find my Breva is a hard start especially when it is parked in the sun and will often find fuel on the ground below the overflow.  DISCONNECT the cannister and I'm quite confident your problem will be solved!!!

I disconnected the canister to see what would happen. Took about 5 minutes. Turned key and it fired right up, no hesitation. It's 90 degrees and humid. With the canister connected today. The bike would not start. I am still going to get the cables and update the map, but for now I'm leaving this evap off so I can ride. Do I just plug the hose from the throttle body and vent the tank hose to atmosphere?  I also noticed that the tank vent hose has a check valve in the middle of it. What should I do with that little booger? Thanks to everyone that responded. I am more than pleased with the results of this little experiment.

[Aaron D.]

Hah!

Anyway, if it runs with the hose plugged, ok-a carbed bike won't. Vent tank to atmosphere. The doo-dad is a tipover valve, ignore it.

[sib]

Hah!

Anyway, if it runs with the hose plugged, ok-a carbed bike won't. Vent tank to atmosphere. The doo-dad is a tipover valve, ignore it.

Because, of course, you're never going to tip over your bike and have fuel pour onto your hot pipes.

[rodekyll]

I disconnected the canister to see what would happen. Took about 5 minutes. Turned key and it fired right up, no hesitation. It's 90 degrees and humid. With the canister connected today. The bike would not start. I am still going to get the cables and update the map, but for now I'm leaving this evap off so I can ride. Do I just plug the hose from the throttle body and vent the tank hose to atmosphere?  I also noticed that the tank vent hose has a check valve in the middle of it. What should I do with that little booger? Thanks to everyone that responded. I am more than pleased with the results of this little experiment.

5 minutes?  What did you disconnect?  Not the carbon cans?  You disconnect the carbon cans by pulling those little hoses at the throttle bodies.  1sec max. 

Disconnect the two hoses at the throttle bodies. Cap them temporarily on the engine side.
I saw this an a Breva. The tank was overfilled. That saturated the canister. In hot weather it pushed fuel into the lines going to the engine. In hot weather, the engine does NOT want to start with that excess fuel.

If that's the case, then it's not a carbon canister problem.  It's a problem of overfilling the tank.  Why blame the carbon can on rider error?

If the tank is constantly pushing fuel into the canister there's a problem with the tank or the fueling method, not the canister.  I think you're homing in on the problem, but your solution is like letting air out of your good tire to match pressure with the flat one, or turning off your headlight because the charging system doesn't work.  You need to fix why the fuel gets there, not break something else to mask the problem.

Again (and for the last time) -- the evap system is a passive one.  It acts on nothing.  Assuming the rest of the bike is in good order, it has no effect on starting the bike.

[beetle]

Give it up, rk. The canister is the divil's work, and must be removed.

[rodekyll]

Like I said, it's similar to an aborigine meeting a flashbulb.  Science hasn't got a chance in the court of well-established myth and superstition.  I leave this discussion to ponder the elevation of ignorance in these enlightened times.   

[beetle]

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out!   

[rodekyll]

Thanks, Beetle.  Coming from you that's special.