Poor Starting Frequently

[robdrobd]

My 2013 Stone has 1800 miles and fails to start 8 out of 10 times. After the first failed start the check engine light illuminates along with the neutral light. I sometimes have to crank the start button 10 to 15 times before it will eventually start. When running, the bike performs very well but the starting problem has become a pain in my butt. I've read all the threads about Fat Duc's and charcoal canisters but none seem to be addressing the problem I am having. I have new properly gapped spark plugs a new battery and run the highest octane gas in my area. I'm going crazy.

[fotoguzzi]

I was going to say get a new battery.. are the connections all clean? including the ground cable where ever it contacts the frame.
also see that the big cable to starter is not loose..

[robdrobd]

Connections are tight. It seems to happen more often when is hot and humid outside. Five to ten minutes of me cranking it over until it finally catches. Very annoying.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Can you clarify a little

You push the button but it doesn't crank
    OR
It cranks over normally but just doesn't fire and catch

Have you checked for a spark?

After it does start it idles normally
    OR
You have trouble keeping it going

[John A]

Cycle the kill switch between start attempts . Check the connection on the engine temp sensor.

[Mike Tashjian]

My fuel injected bikes have always failed to fire right up and idle by just pushing the start button. Cracking the throttle and letting some air in lets them fire up very well.  Here in Syracuse you can find Ethanol free fuel at some stations but most of our fuel is not Ethanol free.  Don't know what you are fueling with but maybe a brand change may help.  Mike

[redrider]

2013 with 1800 miles? Try adding Chevron Techron to the fuel at the correct ratio. Then ride mostly errands where the bike can sit for 10-15 minutes. This allows the cleaners time to do their magic. Make sure you get it up to full operating temp. I suspect you may have some fuel starvation and possibly some deposits on the valves. I experienced this on the Benelli when I first bought it. The injectors were partially clogged with gelled fuel and the fuel pump replaced under warranty. The bike sat unsold for 3 years. It was the demo bike for Benelli USA.

[robdrobd]

Cranks strong, won't fire up. New plugs with great spark. Check engine light comes on after first failed attempt. After about ten tries it will fire and stay running, but idles rough. I also noticed that it bucks and Jerks quite a bit in first or second I'd I'm not providing perfect throttle. Someone in another topic suggested that it might be the evap system since this occurs more frequently in the heat and humidity. Is a canisterectomy in order? Please advise.

[SeanF]

Do you know if the initial 600 mile service was done?

Specifically, the head bolt re-torque and valve lash adjustment, in that order.

Any changes from stock intake or exhaust?

[robdrobd]

600 mile was completed in full. Bone stock.

[fotoguzzi]

Do you have tank suck? Can you hear a whoosh when you open the tank? Maybe it's not venting.

[oldlegs]

Can you here the fuel pump pressurizing the fuel lines when you first turn on the ignition. Steve.

[robdrobd]

There is pressure in the tank. Fuel pump is running on intial start..

[Wayne Orwig]

Pull the vacuum lines from the canister and cap them temporarily. If that helps, then at some point, you may have over filled the tank and saturated the canister, so it is too rich too start. If that doesn't help, then it isn't the canister. And I wouldn't start making modifications just for grins until you get to the root of the issue.

Have you checked the plug gap? A wide plug gap will do the same things.

[robdrobd]

Pull the vacuum lines from the canister and cap them temporarily. If that helps, then at some point, you may have over filled the tank and saturated the canister, so it is too rich too start. If that doesn't help, then it isn't the canister. And I wouldn't start making modifications just for grins until you get to the root of the issue.

Have you checked the plug gap? A wide plug gap will do the same things.

When you say a wide plug gap will do the same thing , what did you mean. I thought a wider gap produced a bigger spark. Mine are gapped to spec. Also, are you saying to disconnect ALL hoses going to the canister and plug them up and see what happens? Is there a diagram out there somewhere? I do not have a user's manual. THANKS

[sib]

Until MG finally got it right, some ECU software versions caused difficult starting.  Have your dealer install the last version, 352BV738, which is entitled "Improved start consent signal management, improved idle management".  If you have access to Guzzidiag, you can check it yourself.

[rocker59]

Until MG finally got it right, some ECU software versions caused difficult starting.  Have your dealer install the last version, 352BV738, which is entitled "Improved start consent signal management, improved idle management".  If you have access to Guzzidiag, you can check it yourself.

 :1:

[robdrobd]

How do I get access to guzzi diagnostics? I'd love to check it out

[rocker59]

How do I get access to guzzi diagnostics? I'd love to check it out

I took my 2014 bike to the nearest dealer and spent a half hour of labor to get the new map and reset the EFI.

120 mile ride to the dealer, but I didn't mind...


http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81414.0

[robdrobd]

My nearest dealer is over 3 hours away. Not sure my arse can take the 6 hour round trip.   

[sign216]

Sometimes on the V7 there's a leak between the metal intake manifold and the cylinder head.  The leak adds extra air and causes hard starting.  After the engine warms up the leak recedes. 

Check by spraying carb cleaner at the joint when the engine is idling.  If the engine rpm changes, you've found the leak. 

This happened on my V7.  I added an extra gasket to fill up the void, and it starts fine now.

Joe

[robdrobd]

Upon further inspection of the evap canister it appears that the tank is already vented to the atmosphere. However there are two hoses coming from the throttle body hose directly into the canister. They seem to be wet near the canister with either oil or gas or an oil gas mixture. Could it be possible that the canister is wet and not allowing the bike to start as if it were flooded? Can I remove these two hoses from the manifold to test this Theory?

[robdrobd]

[Kev m]

Rob,

You've received a lot of good advice, BUT most of it is shotgun and the method may stumble upon the problem, but it's clumsy as a method.

So really the first step is to order the necessary cables and download GuzziDiag. Check for trouble codes and check operating parameters when cranking and idling.

Then start a logical progression of troubleshooting to eliminate possible causes.

GuzziDiag should give you a good idea if it's electronic or not, and spark or fuel, or at least help eliminate some of the items mentioned (like temp sensor).

This behavior is definitely not normal and does NOT sound like the typical cold start reluctance of these models. Though my Stone does idle rough and will die if it doesn't warm up it ALWAYS starts on the first try, in the first few revolutions the motor and always has.

If it has sat a lot these 3+ years with fuel in it I wouldn't be surprised if this was a problem that might be cleared with Techron or the like.

Syracuse, hmm, wonder if Jay and I are going to head that way in a few weeks....

[pat80flh]

The hoses from the canister to the throttle body can be removed and plugged off. Seal the nipple off some how, I assume there is vacuum there with the engine running. I am not familiar with the vapor recovery on your bike , but the end result is gas vapors enter your intake and are burned. If the vacuum lines at the intake are full of raw gas, there's a problem.


   I'm new to guzzis, but not to wrenching, I'm 50 or so miles from you, if you get desperate.

[robdrobd]

Rob,

You've received a lot of good advice, BUT most of it is shotgun and the method may stumble upon the problem, but it's clumsy as a method.

So really the first step is to order the necessary cables and download GuzziDiag. Check for trouble codes and check operating parameters when cranking and idling.

Then start a logical progression of troubleshooting to eliminate possible causes.

GuzziDiag should give you a good idea if it's electronic or not, and spark or fuel, or at least help eliminate some of the items mentioned (like temp sensor).

This behavior is definitely not normal and does NOT sound like the typical cold start reluctance of these models. Though my Stone does idle rough and will die if it doesn't warm up it ALWAYS starts on the first try, in the first few revolutions the motor and always has.

If it has sat a lot these 3+ years with fuel in it I wouldn't be surprised if this was a problem that might be cleared with Techron or the like.

Syracuse, hmm, wonder if Jay and I are going to head that way in a few weeks....

Kev, Where is the best place to get what I need for a diagnostics test?

[Kev m]

There are some threads on here that detail GuzziDiag and I think list some Amazon retailers who sell the cables, they're relatively cheap.

Hmm looks like Syracuse is pretty close to Utica (Saranac) maybe i could convince Jay to head that way.

Funny we literally just got back from the NYST in Davenport a few hours ago. Not that I was traveling with my GuzziDiag cables, which is funny cause I had spares of a bunch of other stuff lol.

Anyway, don't despair, we'll figure this out.

[rodekyll]

There is no reasonable line to be drawn between carbon canisters and your starting problem.  Folks offer it as a knee-jerk solution to everything from poor gas mileage to flat tires, but I've yet to see any convincing argument for removing them.  Arguments, yes.  Convincing, never even close.  I'd wager a nickel that nobody recommending carbon can removal can even accurately tell you what's in it or how it works -- but they're VERY sure it's evil.  Kinda like when an aborigine meets a flashbulb.

[Kev m]

There is no reasonable line to be drawn between carbon canisters and your starting problem.  Folks offer it as a knee-jerk solution to everything from poor gas mileage to flat tires, but I've yet to see any convincing argument for removing them.  Arguments, yes.  Convincing, never even close.  I'd wager a nickel that nobody recommending carbon can removal can even accurately tell you what's in it or how it works -- but they're VERY sure it's evil.  Kinda like when an aborigine meets a flashbulb.

+1 Brazilian!

My Stone wears it's EVAP canister with a happy face, and the tech guys at the track asked about the literal happy face yesterday morning.

I've tried blocking off the EVAP canister purge line and it had ZERO, ZIP, NADA of an effect on cold start issues.

Granted I'm sure it could have a minor effect under the right conditions, it's just I've never seen them... In decades...

[robdrobd]

There is raw gas at the point where my vents enter the canister. That's why I was thinking maybe the canister is flooded?