Author Topic: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise  (Read 3110 times)

Offline WP2

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Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« on: August 09, 2016, 02:59:02 PM »
Needing a little help on my 2003 EV-T. Hydro motor with recall done by Speakers at zero miles when purchased NIB in 2009. 41,000 miles now meticulously maintained and been running great.

A little history...Tuned 200 miles ago, Fluids (no filter this time) about 100 ago. Needed to change the air filter and did last weekend. Tank off, filter changed then tank back on - pretty routine stuff..
Started it up and it sounds like the top end is coming apart (sounded perfect when turned off). Shut it right off and in a state of panic, I did as much research on the board as I could - eliminated exhaust touching frame and looked around seeing nothing out of the ordinary - noting seems loose.
Thinking I may have done something wrong reinstalling the tank (?) so I started to remove it again to see if something got jammed when I reinstalled. Pulled it back and a little up without disconnecting the hoses - started again - noise is still there.
Before I finish removing the tank completely, I thought I'd check with the group for advice on what to look for.
Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. I'm close to a panic attack...

Thanks in advance.

Walt
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 04:03:03 PM »
can you record the sound? do the hydro lifters need to get pumped up? pull off a rocker cover for a look see?
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2016, 04:03:35 PM »
Probably what you're hearing is valve clatter from the lifters not pumping up (it's a hydro).  I've not personally experienced a prolonged clatter after an oil change with no filter, but It could take a few more seconds to settle down than you're giving it.  Someone else might tell us what a reasonable time is for them to come up -- it's never been longer than a couple of seconds for mine.  Otherwise you need to be looking for the cause of no oil pressure at the lifters.

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2016, 04:08:04 PM »
 Is there any possibility a small object fell into the injection throttle bodies when you replaced the air filter?
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 04:19:41 PM »
Time to look down the spark plug holes with your micro camera!

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Offline CalVin2007

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2016, 04:41:51 PM »
Is there any possibility a small object fell into the injection throttle bodies when you replaced the air filter?

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2016, 05:05:07 PM »
Left a wrench in there by accident, sort of like a surgeon leaving a pair of scissors inadvertently in the patient??
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 06:13:25 PM by PJPR01 »
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2016, 05:57:21 PM »
I would pull the valve covers and look for a loose adjuster. (yes, the hydraulic recall has adjusters that normally aren't touched)
Also, if is sat for a while, as mentioned, a lifter may simply need to get pumped up.
Check a valve for excessive clearance.

With the hydraulic lifters, is a tappet or cam lobe are wearing, you don't know it as it chews itself up and adjusts for it.
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Offline nick949

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2016, 06:09:37 PM »
You drained the oil. Did you actually put any in?  It can happen.

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2016, 06:17:59 PM »
  Fluids (no filter this time) about 100 ago. 
You drained the oil. Did you actually put any in?  It can happen.
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Offline WP2

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2016, 11:12:57 AM »
Thanks for the tips -
I'm confused because there was nothing done to the bike except the tank removal and air filter change. I'm pretty careful but with procedures and all my tools are accounted for and the oil change had a couple hundred miles on it.
 Going to retrace the air filter steps and get my look around under the tank and in the airbox. Then I will pull the pan and put a new filter and oil in just to be sure
If the clatter remains, I guess I'll have to pull the covers and see what I see - not sure what I'll be looking at - not totally familiar with the differences to be found. I've adjusted the valves on my '02 Stone many times but don't know the difference with the hydro top end.

Wish me luck.
Thanks
Walt
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2016, 11:44:04 AM »
If you can't record the noise, at least try to describe it.  If you didn't drain the oil and its been running fine for 100 miles since, then I doubt it is mechanical or oil related.  Based on the scenario you describe, my bet is that you may have reversed the wires connecting the electric petcock and the fuel level sensor.  Now the pump is trying to suck like crazy to combat the closed petcock.  Does it make the noise when you turn on the key?  Or do you actually have to start and run?  The good news is that you can just set the wires right and you'll be good to go with no noise.  The bad news is that you have permanently cooked your fuel level sensor.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 11:44:59 AM by pehayes »

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2016, 12:57:48 PM »
I have had the "lifter not pumped up" noise probably a dozen times since the recall fix.  The first time it did it was when I picked the bike up after the cam install and Carl told me what it was and not to worry about it. 

It sounds like a bad metal on metal knock coming from the valve cover.  It goes away after about 5 seconds though.
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Offline WP2

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2016, 02:08:18 PM »
If you can't record the noise, at least try to describe it.  If you didn't drain the oil and its been running fine for 100 miles since, then I doubt it is mechanical or oil related.  Based on the scenario you describe, my bet is that you may have reversed the wires connecting the electric petcock and the fuel level sensor.  Now the pump is trying to suck like crazy to combat the closed petcock.  Does it make the noise when you turn on the key?  Or do you actually have to start and run?  The good news is that you can just set the wires right and you'll be good to go with no noise.  The bad news is that you have permanently cooked your fuel level sensor.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

I'm not sure how to attach a audio file to a post - I did record it holding my phone about a foot off each valve cover and can follow instructions for posting or can mail it to those interested in hearing it.
As far as the oil goes - I did a change about 200 miles ago and it was the no filter change (just oil) all was well til I took the tank off to change the air filter.

As far as the electric Petcock goes - it has a manual and the electronic petcock connector is zip tied to the frame under the tank. Noticed that it was not capped off and contacts were visible - I'll seal it off now.

Today, I've removed the tank and gone thru the air filter routine and looked around - nothing amiss. Dropped the oil and replaced the filter just to be safe everything is clean and no metal on the magnetic plug. Pulled the right valve cover and it looks normal with oil pooled in the recesses (normal).
Don't know what to look for to verify the recall was done properly or at all - it was supposedly done by Jason Speaker when the bike was new - never have had reason to doubt his work or integrity. tho. I cant find the link on this board with pics of what to look for can anybody send me the link?

I'm going to leave it opened up until I've followed all the tips then close everything up and start it with fingers crossed.

Again, if you want to hear the audio - PM me your email address and I'll send it on.

Thanks all for the help so far.

Walt

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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2016, 02:37:25 PM »
Did you add any gas in the process, anything else happen no matter how insignificant it may seem?

How long was the bike down between last running ok and the filter change

You say the knocking goes away after about 5 seconds, that might be how long it takes the hydro tappets to re-fill.

It really doesn't seem that you did anything to explain the noise.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2016, 02:53:59 PM »
I didn't read where the OP says the noise goes away in about 5sec.  Maybe I missed it.  OP?

I'm not going to listen to the audio on account of I'm deaf and don't do well with noise over electronic devices.

BUT -- I see where you inspected for top end oil by looking at the stopped engine for pooled oil in the head recesses.  All that proves is gravity.  Since you already have it on the center stand and the valve covers off, why not start it and make a big oily mess all over the garage visually check for oil oozing out of everywhere.  Have a rag ready to catch drips. 

While you're doing that, you can do the old-school collapsed lifter test: Put your finger on the heel of each rocker arm (push rod end) and then the toe end (valve end).  Can you feel lash at any rocker?  Does the quality of the noise change as you press on any one?  Then that's the bad boy.  Also, a stethoscope is your friend here.  It will tell you exactly where the noise is. 

We're assuming this is a hydro-related problem since the hydros have a bad reputation for making expensive sounding noises that they can back up with actual expenses.  Let's not dismiss the problems common to all the engines -- little end bushing, bad oil pump, etc.

 

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2016, 02:59:39 PM »
You mentioned you changed the oil. Is there any chance the filter is loose in the pan? (No oil pressure.)

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Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2016, 03:12:00 PM »
 Yes
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2016, 03:32:36 PM »
I'm not sure how to attach a audio file to a post - I did record it holding my phone about a foot off each valve cover and can follow instructions for posting or can mail it to those interested in hearing it.
As far as the oil goes - I did a change about 200 miles ago and it was the no filter change (just oil) all was well til I took the tank off to change the air filter.

As far as the electric Petcock goes - it has a manual and the electronic petcock connector is zip tied to the frame under the tank. Noticed that it was not capped off and contacts were visible - I'll seal it off now.

Today, I've removed the tank and gone thru the air filter routine and looked around - nothing amiss. Dropped the oil and replaced the filter just to be safe everything is clean and no metal on the magnetic plug. Pulled the right valve cover and it looks normal with oil pooled in the recesses (normal).
Don't know what to look for to verify the recall was done properly or at all - it was supposedly done by Jason Speaker when the bike was new - never have had reason to doubt his work or integrity. tho. I cant find the link on this board with pics of what to look for can anybody send me the link?

I'm going to leave it opened up until I've followed all the tips then close everything up and start it with fingers crossed.

Again, if you want to hear the audio - PM me your email address and I'll send it on.

Thanks all for the help so far.

Walt
Here is a post showing what a post-CAM recall hyrdo should look like under the valve cover: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45144.msg677444#msg677444
NOTE: If the resolution on that photo isn't doing it for you, there are a few others before in the thread.

As for uploading the audio file, I find DropBox to be the best for posting things on forums. Upload to DropBox, next to the file click Link icon, click Copy Link, reply to a forum post, and past the URL into the reply changing dl=0 at the end of the URL to dl=1
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2016, 03:57:47 PM »
If you can't record the noise, at least try to describe it.  If you didn't drain the oil and its been running fine for 100 miles since, then I doubt it is mechanical or oil related.  Based on the scenario you describe, my bet is that you may have reversed the wires connecting the electric petcock and the fuel level sensor.  Now the pump is trying to suck like crazy to combat the closed petcock.  Does it make the noise when you turn on the key?  Or do you actually have to start and run?  The good news is that you can just set the wires right and you'll be good to go with no noise.  The bad news is that you have permanently cooked your fuel level sensor.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

If you reversed them the low fuel light will be illuminated and the sensor is toast.
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Offline WP2

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2016, 05:46:36 PM »

I didn't read where the OP says the noise goes away in about 5sec.  Maybe I missed it.  OP?

I'm not going to listen to the audio on account of I'm deaf and don't do well with noise over electronic devices.

BUT -- I see where you inspected for top end oil by looking at the stopped engine for pooled oil in the head recesses.  All that proves is gravity.  Since you already have it on the center stand and the valve covers off, why not start it and make a big oily mess all over the garage visually check for oil oozing out of everywhere.  Have a rag ready to catch drips. 

While you're doing that, you can do the old-school collapsed lifter test: Put your finger on the heel of each rocker arm (push rod end) and then the toe end (valve end).  Can you feel lash at any rocker?  Does the quality of the noise change as you press on any one?  Then that's the bad boy.  Also, a stethoscope is your friend here.  It will tell you exactly where the noise is. 

We're assuming this is a hydro-related problem since the hydros have a bad reputation for making expensive sounding noises that they can back up with actual expenses.  Let's not dismiss the problems common to all the engines -- little end bushing, bad oil pump, etc.

Thanks - you are correct. the clatter does not stop after a few seconds - it's there and thus my concern.

I have everything exposed now looking for the obvious - nothing stands out. I'll button everything up except for the valve covers and check it as you describe. I'm a bit confused on what to look for but take instruction very well. What is a "little end bushing"? Does the fuel pump fail all at once? I turned it off and the next time I started it...the loud clatter.

I'll get the tank on and the oil pan back on tonight and then address your procedure for checking the valves.

Thanks for the input.

Walt





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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2016, 05:50:32 PM »
 Small end bush is the bushing in the small end of the connecting rod .

 Fuel pumps won't make that sound .


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Offline WP2

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 05:56:53 PM »
Did you add any gas in the process, anything else happen no matter how insignificant it may seem?

How long was the bike down between last running ok and the filter change

You say the knocking goes away after about 5 seconds, that might be how long it takes the hydro tappets to re-fill.

It really doesn't seem that you did anything to explain the noise.

no gas added - only thing else I touched is adjusting the shift linkage (nope, not touching anything it shouldn't).

Going to try and post the recording in a minute.

Walt
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Offline swooshdave

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2016, 06:11:53 PM »
no gas added - only thing else I touched is adjusting the shift linkage (nope, not touching anything it shouldn't).

Going to try and post the recording in a minute.

Walt

YouTube may be a good option too.
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2016, 06:15:44 PM »
Is the sound the same if the bike is on the side stand or the center stand?  Definitely an engine noise, not a vibration noise?  Is the side stand perhaps loose as heck and moving around?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 06:16:53 PM by PJPR01 »
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2016, 06:16:30 PM »
Once it's running, work quickly to check things.  If the clatter is significant, prolonged running isn't going to improve things.  The visual and push tests of the rocker arms should take less than a minute.  Then already have the stethoscope ready to probe around the engine. 

What does the oil pressure light do while this is happening (too much to expect an actual GAUGE -- who needs it?   :rolleyes:  )?

Offline jmac851

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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2016, 06:24:56 PM »
The fuel pump can make a terrible clattering noise if the tank valve is not opening all the way or the hose is kinked.
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2016, 08:22:26 PM »
Thanks everyone for the suggestions; I'm a little slow in getting things done today...90 degrees and humid in the garage, but I wanted to say thanks for the suggestions so far.

I've pulled the tank and air filter to check if I did things correctly - I did and I have all my noting left in the airbox.

Dropped the oil and changed the filter - nothing amiss in the pan - magnetic plug was clean and the oil was clean (200 miles). Oil filter was not loose (I'm a hose-clamper)

Pulled the valve covers - looks good to my inexperienced eye.

I'll start it in the AM when I'm in a better mood and if it's still loud, I'll look for oil flow in under the valve covers.

I've been asked to describe the sound - it's like the 5 seconds on first start after an oil change maybe a tad louder - just doesn't go away after a bit. I'm afraid to run it very long if it's oil starved...we'll see in the morning if it is.

One further question - does an oil pump fail "right now" with no warning? How do I confirm that it may have?

Again - thanks for the input and sorry if I'm being a PITA but I'm retired, it's summer and I ride this thing every day and plan to be trippin for most of September.

Walt


















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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2016, 08:31:19 PM »
Is the sound the same if the bike is on the side stand or the center stand?  Definitely an engine noise, not a vibration noise?  Is the side stand perhaps loose as heck and moving around?

Noise is there on sidestand and center stand and for the 100 yard ride.
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Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2016, 08:34:50 PM »
Once it's running, work quickly to check things.  If the clatter is significant, prolonged running isn't going to improve things.  The visual and push tests of the rocker arms should take less than a minute.  Then already have the stethoscope ready to probe around the engine. 

What does the oil pressure light do while this is happening (too much to expect an actual GAUGE -- who needs it?   :rolleyes:  )?

Thanks - I'll grab a stethoscope right after my morning coffee and before I test it. Good to have another tool.
Oil light lights with key and goes out normally after starting.

Walt
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