850T near Denver: $4650???

[Testarossa]

http://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/5736908998.html

[ITSec]

As described and shown, it seems mostly unmolested - a fair bit of cosmetic work to do, no telling the condition of the suspension or internals...

[Perazzimx14]

As described and shown, it seems mostly unmolested - a fair bit of cosmetic work to do, no telling the condition of the suspension or internals...

Best part is add in $1,000 for replacement cylinders and at least another $500-$1,000 for other misc parts and you have yourself a bike worth about $4,000.

[dxhall]

Perhaps why it'd been on CL off and on for months.

[Rusnak_322]

What is with you people that think that every bike needs new cylinders. The thing went 41k miles with no issues.

[oldbike54]

What is with you people that think that every bike needs new cylinders. The thing went 41k miles with no issues.

 Chrome bores .

 Dusty

[Rusnak_322]

I know about chrome bores, just like I know about Porsche ims bearings, Miata short nose cranks and lots of other "land mines" that get parroted out on Internet message boards.

A 40 year old bike that is currently being ridden daily is doubtful to have issues.

[oldbike54]

I know about chrome bores, just like I know about Porsche ims bearings, Miata short nose cranks and lots of other "land mines" that get parroted out on Internet message boards.

A 40 year old bike that is currently being ridden daily is doubtful to have issues.

 At an average of 1000 miles a year it doesn't seem like a daily rider .

 Dusty

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I know about chrome bores, just like I know about Porsche ims bearings, Miata short nose cranks and lots of other "land mines" that get parroted out on Internet message boards.

A 40 year old bike that is currently being ridden daily is doubtful to have issues.

My '69 Ambassador was ridden regularly (sometimes daily) when I bought it in April '97 with 36k miles on it. By 54k miles large areas of the chrome was missing on both cylinders. I've never seen any chrome bore engine (over 2 dozen and counting) that didn't have some level of degradation - from chrome so thin you can see the aluminum cylinder casting through it to large flakes falling off. It's not "parroted" if it's first-hand experience.

At an average of 1000 miles a year it doesn't seem like a daily rider .

3 miles per day commute don't you know... 

[Cam3512]

What is with you people that think that every bike needs new cylinders. The thing went 41k miles with no issues.

Because we listen to first hand knowledge from the guys that fix these bikes for a living.  You don't want to listen, go for it.  Just don't come crying here when the engine blows up (like other doubters have).

[danedg]

I've got a set of perfect looking chrome bores from the Eldorado, with only 49K on them, that can be YOURS for $250!
Shipping included.
All sales are final.

[oldbike54]

I've got a set of perfect looking chrome bores from the Eldorado, that can be YOURS for $250!
Shipping included.
All sales are final.

 Let me get this straight , you're offering someone $250.00 to dispose of these ?

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

I know about chrome bores, just like I know about Porsche ims bearings, Miata short nose cranks and lots of other "land mines" that get parroted out on Internet message boards.

A 40 year old bike that is currently being ridden daily is doubtful to have issues.

There are some things that aren't internet myth.  Some are just what they report to be.  Guzzi chrome bores are one.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to predict 100% failure of the chrome.  It was a bad idea.

If you can't see the forest for the trees, think about it this way -- if this is an internet myth, why did Guzzi -- and everyone else -- abandon the technology?  Everything done in chrome bore, from Guzzi bores to brake calipers to the M-16, was a failure.  I'm working with chromed manifold bolts today (factory Honda Marine) that are oozing rust. 

Chrome swells from moisture.  It doesn't like other metals (hence the triple-chrome plating process to get it to stick to steel), so it doesn't adhere well, and a number of things will make it delaminate.  Things like temperature differentials, moisture, oil seeping into the pores (chrome is very porous -- that's why rust bleeds through your bumpers and my manifold bolts), the scraping action of rings, the rapid pressure changes of combustion, etc.  Even used ornamentally it takes a lot of maintenance to keep it from oxidizing and rusting.  Look at the time those chrome pony riders spend polishing their bikes.  They have to.  They're slaves to chrome.  Using chrome structurally was an engineering brain fart.  It took "All show and no go" to a whole new level.

[danedg]

Nah...just kiddin'. I wouldn't sell them things to anybody, friend or foe.
The EdgeWife has her eye on them for a set of unusual planters!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

If you can't see the forest for the trees, think about it this way -- if this is an internet myth, why did Guzzi -- and everyone else -- abandon the technology?  Everything done in chrome bore, from Guzzi bores to brake calipers to the M-16, was a failure. 

There is one application where it seems to work exceedingly well: small 2-stroke engines. Many chainsaws, trimmers, etc. have chrome plated bores that last a very long time. One of my old OMC Lawn-Boys is coming up on 60 years old, rebuilt once with new bearings and rings, the bore was perfect. Of course, these engines have two things helping them out - 1) normally they are used on a regular basis and 2) the fuel has oil in it which fills the pores of the chrome and prevents moisture damage. The bores become "seasoned", somewhat like a cast-iron frying pan. 

[oldbike54]

 "Chrome doesn't like other metals." Yep , I've personally heard chrome talking smack to iron , steel , aluminum , titanium , etc . It does seem to like copper , no idea why .

  "Ya gotta keep 'em separated" 

  Dusty

[swooshdave]

There are some things that aren't internet myth.  Some are just what they report to be.  Guzzi chrome bores are one.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to predict 100% failure of the chrome.  It was a bad idea.

If you can't see the forest for the trees, think about it this way -- if this is an internet myth, why did Guzzi -- and everyone else -- abandon the technology?  Everything done in chrome bore, from Guzzi bores to brake calipers to the M-16, was a failure.  I'm working with chromed manifold bolts today (factory Honda Marine) that are oozing rust. 

Chrome swells from moisture.  It doesn't like other metals (hence the triple-chrome plating process to get it to stick to steel), so it doesn't adhere well, and a number of things will make it delaminate.  Things like temperature differentials, moisture, oil seeping into the pores (chrome is very porous -- that's why rust bleeds through your bumpers and my manifold bolts), the scraping action of rings, the rapid pressure changes of combustion, etc.  Even used ornamentally it takes a lot of maintenance to keep it from oxidizing and rusting.  Look at the time those chrome pony riders spend polishing their bikes.  They have to.  They're slaves to chrome.  Using chrome structurally was an engineering brain fart.  It took "All show and no go" to a whole new level.

How long did it take Guzzi to divest of the chrome bores? Ten years?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

How long did it take Guzzi to divest of the chrome bores? Ten years?

In the big-twins, they used it '67 to '80, but not on all models. Le Mans, Convert/G5/SP/CX100 of that period had iron liners.

[swooshdave]

In the big-twins, they used it '67 to '80, but not on all models. Le Mans, Convert/G5/SP/CX100 of that period had iron liners.

So it took 13 years to discover there was a problem? Or they knew early on and didn't do anything? You would have thought it would have ruined Moto Guzzi if they had to address all those bikes.

[rodekyll]

No, it took that time to address the problem globally.  They knew about it when they first came out with the iron liners.  The rest I imagine was their usual process of emptying the parts bin before adding more.

But industry overall was reluctant to accept the folly of industrial chrome.  Look at how long it took to fix the M-16 problem, and that was a literal life-and-death situation.

[swooshdave]

No, it took that time to address the problem globally.  They knew about it when they first came out with the iron liners.  The rest I imagine was their usual process of emptying the parts bin before adding more.

I'm not buying that.

What's the soonest failure time people have seen for a bore, years not miles? Maybe the theory that they fail from sitting is true?

[n3303j]

Industrial chrome should not be compared to decorative chrone.

Industrial chrome is applied for wear resistance. Decorative chrome is applied for appearance and corrosion resistance.

Just because every exterior bit of chrome on my 850T3 is rusting within 6 months of purchase doesn't show any indication what the plated bores could do.

In the machine shop it was common to hard chrome drawing dies that stretched metal under extreme pressures to lengthen their service life. This chrome was several thousandths of an inch thick and applied over hardened oil hardening tool steel. That chrome stayed in place.

That being said the first thing I did with my 18 year sitting barn find T3 was to remove the chrome cylinders and replace them with Ghilardoni units. 60,000 miles later I'm still really pleased with my choice. Seen enough photos of chrome/aluminum bores that delaminated.

What bothers me on the sale bike is that there are a lot if photos of other bikes and a lot of photos of the right side of this bike. If I want to sell a bike I shoot every aspect of the bike I am selling both close up and long shots. I posted 63 individual pictures when I sold my /2 in the spring. I try to show everything a potential buyer might want to look at if he were at the machine. Really helps. Last 4 machines I sold went at asking price with buyer 99% committed before they ever saw the machine in person.

[canuck750]

What is with you people that think that every bike needs new cylinders. The thing went 41k miles with no issues.

Not every bike, just those Moto Guzzi's with chrome cylinders.

If you have a chrome cylinder bore engine pull the crank, empty the sludge trap and measure the crank bearing surfaces and the bearings, then measure the oil pump shafts and bores as well. I am four outa four with chrome cylinder bikes chewing up cranks and oil pumps.

I get tired of people claiming "I checked the chrome bores and they where fine", Its what the tiny chrome flakes do to the rest of the engine that is the issue.

[Thirtyaughtsix]

I'm no expert, but I think the whole sit-in-a-barn-for-decades thing nukes the chrome more than regular use, unless it's wine or certain guitars no good comes out of letting these things just sit around.

Such was the case for my bike, barn find that had sat for 30 years, and sure enough my chrome had a little bubble in it, and so I spent the $700~ for new ones

[rodekyll]

Don't misunderstand me -- I'm not saying that all industrial chrome is always bad everywhere.  I gave examples to make a point.  It's got a place.  We can give a lot of examples where it does it's job.  But Guzzi liners isn't one of them.

.  . and to answer the question of how long -- my '69 ambo was a daily driver and peeling in about '76.  Lots were.  The conventional wisdom blamed it on .  .
 . . .

 . . .

unleaded gas.

In Vietnam, the humid jungle environment swelled the early chromed M-16 receivers to the point that they jammed if you left a bullet in the chamber overnight.

But yes, moisture getting in the chrome pores swells and delaminates the plating in a guzzi cylinder.  So a bike that sits long periods would be swelling and peeling and pitting and rusting without ever being run.  Then you run it and strip off chunks, and things go downhill rapidly from there.