1996 California Starting Issue.

[Thundergoose]

Hey all. So I finally got back to working on my Guzzi. It's been too long. I think I found why I've got no spark.

Check out the pics and give me your opinions. The reason I am unsure is that these wires seem to have been clipped by someone... Am I crazy? The wire that caught my attention is in the plug closest to the bars on the right side of the frame. The wire is yellow and was in the "C" plug. Up at the kill switch, this wire had been clipped, as you can see, but it shorted out several other wires.

I hate electronics!

[Kiwi_Roy]

The wire has obviously been subject to some pretty serious current, I can't tell you why but one thing I do know some of the wiring in the kill switch area is completely unfused
you could easily get 100 or more in that area. It also looks as though the pin has come out of the plug.

Obviously you need to replace the yellow wire and while you are about it add a 40 Amp fuse to the Red main ignition switch feed at the battery, if anything like that happens again
the fuse will blow and protect the wiring.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_California_1100i.gif

I'm not sure if this is the reason the bike won't run though, can you go over the symptoms again to refresh us.
Does the pump run when you turn it on?
Will it crank over?

[Thundergoose]

I quit working on the bike about a year ago. I was in the middle of my MBA program and did not have the patience to do both. Just went back at it tonight and about 30 minutes in, I discovered this mess.

Anyway, the bike was running fine. One day I went out to start it and it wouldn't start. Suspected the battery may have been bad. Replaced it. Nothing... Long story short, I came on the forum here, and you actually sent me the wiring diagram. I went through and cleaned and greased all kinds of connections. No matter what I did, I could not get spark. The fuel pump is working and spins up when the key is turned, just no spark. Replaced the relays with the ones sold here by one of the forum members, if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, the battery is on the trickle charger right now. I figure, after finding those fried wires, my search should be over. I must have gone over every other wire in this bike. I chalk missing those crispy critters up to high levels of stress and frustration from my school work. I'm assuming that those wires should connect to something in the Kill switch?

Will make sure to fuse the red wire before I get this all back together.


**Edit
Just went out to take a look. The wires that are all clumped together at the switch are Red, Red/Yellow, Yellow, Red Black. These are the wires that are isolated with the blue connectors on them. According to the shcematics, these are my hazards and blinkers, if I'm reading it all right. Shouldn't have a thing to do with my starting issue now should it?

[rodekyll]

And the battery is of course disconnected from the bike until the problem is found, right?


The thing right now is to find out why that wire melted.  The completely burned copper suggests a LOT of current over a lot of time.  That sort of current often comes from an unfused, dead short that continues until either the battery or the wire gives up. 

The wires you name run every darn thing -- power to brake switch, headlight, power to the blinkers, and more -- run the wiring diagram and you see there are lots of places for the physical short to occur.  You need to find which wire (probably along the headlight run) got abraded, pinched, broken to ground, is binding when you turn, etc.  It could be hidden in a loom or there could be a good clue -- like a corresponding burn mark on the handlebar where the blue connector touched -- something like that.  It may be in a place where it's close to a coil circuit wire and burned thrugh it, too.  It's an odd detective story, and there are way to many suspects to point you any closer than that, imo.  The rest will be hands-on with you, an ohm meter and NO BATTERY INSTALLED UNTIL THE SHORT IS FOUND.


$0.02

[Thundergoose]

I've got a sneaking suspicion...

PO installed a trailer hitch and wired into the rear lights, if I'm not mistaken. I bet this shorted out out back! Will check tomorrow after work. Battery is out of bike as it charges!

[Kiwi_Roy]

That could make sense, the yellow wire seems to be lights, but it should have blown the fuse, the PO may have got it mixed up with the unfused red wire somehow.


As to the ignition, study the diagram top right, that's the ECU really off on it's own. You can ignore the two wires at the top of page (tach and fault light), all you have is a signal from relay 41 and 12 Volts from the battery.
Do you get anything shown on the fault light at the dash.
Do you have a copy of the Efiman pdf, it's a very good description of these fuel injection systems. I usually find it by doing a Google search for "Efiman document"

When you turn the key on the fuel pump runs and the ignition gets power but it turns off again after a few seconds.

When you start to crank pulses from the revolution sensors tell the ECU to put the power back on the coils, perhaps one of the sensors isn't working. Pull each one out and make sure it's not covered in iron filings.
Measure the resistance from the ECU connector, both sensors should measure the same Ohms

[rodekyll]

Sensors measure 680ohms each.

Here's the link to the article.  http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf

For those who would rather search, search EFIMAN DOCUMENT PDF.  Thanks for posting that, Roy.

It's a good overview and has some details I've been searching for for a long time.  Good stuff!

[Tom]

Ditch the hitch and disconnect/reconnect the wiring to where it was before being a trailer hauler.

[fotoguzzi]

the rear sub-harness can be unplugged up near the battery left side under seat.

[Thundergoose]

Stripped the cover off the wires going to the switch. Lots of carnage. Have new switch on the way. Trailer plug has been deleted. Will see if we can get it running when the new RH Kill Switch arrives.

[Tom]

You could as a test.  Separate and insulate the burnt wire.  Turn it on and see if that works.  If it does then you know that would be the wire that needs repairing.  Somehow I think that you're not going to get off that easy.  You connector in the gang wire collector may be messed up too.

[Thundergoose]

You could as a test.  Separate and insulate the burnt wire.  Turn it on and see if that works.  If it does then you know that would be the wire that needs repairing.  Somehow I think that you're not going to get off that easy.  You connector in the gang wire collector may be messed up too.

If you look really close, you'll see that some of the other wire got caught up in the mess. I'll separate everything this evening and see if it's salvageable to at least see if I can get the bike running...

[Tom]

Good luck and best wishes on the repair.  I need to do some more on mine.     It started out with the ignition switch failing internally.  By-passed that and put in a new switch.  Sorted out some other problems with the main gang collector plug.  Turns out that some of the connectors failed inside the plug.  You couldn't see it but when test with a multi-meter, it showed no continuity.  I hate this stuff.

[Thundergoose]

Alright, went through each wire in the kill switch, isolated the wire, wrapped in in electrical tape, plugged it in, and....

NOTHING.

Guess I'll just wait for MotoInternational to ship my new kill switch. Any possible way this should keep my fuel pump from spinning up? I get nothing when I turn the ignition key. Kick stand is up, bike's in neutral, switch is in "RUN" position.... 

Figured that I could at least get some diagnostics going until my new switch arrives, but nothing even attempts to light up...

[Tom]

Check and see if you have juice going into the switch and out when switched on.  Check your kill switch to see if it is turning on/off.  If you still have the Siemens grey relays, replace.

[Thundergoose]

Wierd thing happened. Took my test light out to check for juice in the key.

Terminal 30 has juice key on/off.
Terminal 16 has juice key off. No juice Key on.
15/54 No juice key on/off
Terminal 50 no juice key on/off

Bare with me, I am not electronic friendly.

Can I assume that my switch is bad?

[Tom]

Kind of sounds like it.  When you turn the key to on.  You should have power at another terminal.  If it's the same as the key is off.  Sounds like another switch is needed.  You could use a universal ignition switch.  The stock switch can be a rear bear to get out.  There are 2 mounting bolts that had snap off heads.  Could be a problem to remove and put a switch in the same area.  If someone has a better way.  Jump in or correct me.

Run a short jumper from the hot/positive to the ignition switch to another lead and see if it powers up something.

[Thundergoose]

Kind of sounds like it.  When you turn the key to on.  You should have power at another terminal.  If it's the same as the key is off.  Sounds like another switch is needed.  You could use a universal ignition switch.  The stock switch can be a rear bear to get out.  There are 2 mounting bolts that had snap off heads.  Could be a problem to remove and put a switch in the same area.  If someone has a better way.  Jump in or correct me.

Run a short jumper from the hot/positive to the ignition switch to another lead and see if it powers up something.

While I was using my test light I hit the white wire while testing the green wire and the fuel pump spun up. Kept the connection hot and hit the start button and got a relay click. Should all 4 poles be hot with switch on?

[fotoguzzi]

   The stock switch can be a rear bear to get out.  There are 2 mounting bolts that had snap off heads.   

or a real kitten.. if you take the triple clamp off you can get a vice grips on them or cut a slot for a screw driver w/a dremmel tool.. that's how I did it.. they were not very tight tho..

[rodekyll]

 Did you find any other logical place for the short to be?  If not, that could be where the wire damage happened.

But as near as I can tell, yes, all should be hot with the key.

[Tom]

Sounds like it.  One lead should be for lights.  The rest, someone else would have to jump in.  Last one I replaced was on my Strada '93.  You can use a universal ignition switch from Carquest. 

One hot lead comes into the switch.  The rest should be juice going out.  Lignts, fuel pump, turn signals, ignition and kill switch.  Anyone can correct.  The contacts in the switch can fail with too much juice heating up.  Haven't pull one a part.  I was able to revive a switch on my '80 Convert and '76 T3.  I haven't pull a Cali one apart or the Strada.  Might not be able to fix.  Plastic bodies.  The older ones are metal and you can pry the prongs off.  Disassemble and clean the contacts.   

[Thundergoose]

Sounds like it.  One lead should be for lights.  The rest, someone else would have to jump in.  Last one I replaced was on my Strada '93.  You can use a universal ignition switch from Carquest. 

One hot lead comes into the switch.  The rest should be juice going out.  Lignts, fuel pump, turn signals, ignition and kill switch.  Anyone can correct.  The contacts in the switch can fail with too much juice heating up.  Haven't pull one a part.  I was able to revive a switch on my '80 Convert and '76 T3.  I haven't pull a Cali one apart or the Strada.  Might not be able to fix.  Plastic bodies.  The older ones are metal and you can pry the prongs off.  Disassemble and clean the contacts.

VICTORY!

Well, kind of... The guys who re-keyed the switch did put it together wrong! Took it apart, spun it, snapped it back together, and the ignition switch is working again!

Still no spark, pump whirls up, tach jumps (an old Guzzi guy told me that if the tach jumps while cranking, right coil is getting power???). Bike turns over no problem. Just no spark!!! Pulled left plug, held it up to block... Nothing, not even a weak spark.

Back to Kiwi's advice to test the relays...

[Kiwi_Roy]

You have no spark but does the pump start again while cranking

It should run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on then stop
When you start to crank it should start again.

If the tacho is jumping you must be getting a spark, it comes from the coil.
look again in a dark garage.

[Thundergoose]

Well... It ran... Once.

Can't get it to go again. Pulled the left crank case sensors. Replaced them. They seemed to be clean? I wiped them off and put them back. Cleaned both plugs with brake/parts cleaner (they were kind of black, pulled the coil side of the plug wire on the left side and reinserted it, then gave it a go. Didn't want to start, but I heard it fire a couple of times, so I kept at it. And it started right up and ran for at least a minute. Moved all of the stuff in the garage that had begun to pile up around it over the past year so I could roll it out and give it a street test, and now it doesn't want to fire again.

Will see if I can source some plug wires locally tomorrow. Pick up some new plugs, and give it another go. I have lights, fuel pump... Everything's there, just no spark. All fuses are good, contacts corned and greased. Same goes for pyro's relays.

Here's a crappy video of it running tonight.
https://youtu.be/TWcBrxBwXvY

I'm done for the evening, or my neighbors are going to hate me. Will come at it again tomorrow. So close....

[Thundergoose]

You have no spark but does the pump start again while cranking

It should run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on then stop
When you start to crank it should start again.

Yes, the pump turns back on again when cranking. Although, is it possible that it could be turning on sporadically, because I don't recall it running after every time I cranked the engine...

[Kiwi_Roy]

New plugs may do the trick. If you still have trouble see if you can hang a small lamp across the pump, that will indicate you are getting pulses from the engine sensors.

Good Luck

[rodekyll]

Squirt a shot of starting fluid in the intakes and see if it runs.  If it does, it's a fuel problem.

[Thundergoose]

New plugs may do the trick. If you still have trouble see if you can hang a small lamp across the pump, that will indicate you are getting pulses from the engine sensors.

Good Luck

Kiwi, are you referring to a test lamp? I'll replace the plugs tomorrow and see if I can get the old girl to go again.

Thanks for the tip Tom. I'll pick up a can of starting fluid as well. We'll see if we can get to the bottom of this!

[Thundergoose]

***UPDATE***
On my way out the door to work this morning I choked the bike and it cranked right up. It was on the Battery Tender all night. Something tells me that the issue may be battery related! Will see if it cranks up after work.

[fotoguzzi]

Get a load test on the battery