Griso roller tappet conversion. DIY, or choose a dealer and hope for the best?

[fanattic]

I know this has been discussed ad-nausium, and I'm currently wading through the posts for information, but in the meantime, does anyone have a recommendation for a service department at any of the potential 5 dealers I could take it to? (see below)

I have an early 2012 Tenni. Just hit 11k miles. Running well, but it's always seemed just a little rough, especially compared to my Norge (which has roller tappets thank god).
Anyhow, I bought it from Speeds in Elkridge. Had the first service done there.
Did the second one myself, (plus I did an additional oil change between the services. Only used MG filters, and Motul 10/60 synthetic oil.
Took it to Winchester Motorsports to check the TBs and reset the service indicator after I did the rest of the service. I only needed to change all the fluids, everything else looked great including the valve adjustment.

Almost all my riding has been at least 40-50 miles, many of them 100+. Was in the rain only one time. The last 800 or so miles have been commuting to work, a 43 mile ride each way.

So the bike is nearing its next service, and I've been reading the horror stories, and I suspect I will encounter problems with MG for not having the 10km service done by a dealer.

I took a look under the valve cover and I've confirmed that the bike has flat tappets.

The inside of the valve covers and valve train are beautifully clean and the oil is still clear bright red however. So I'm hoping it's not too late, but I figure I'd better plan something soon. And probably stop taking it to work.

Anyhow, my dealer choices are:

Speeds (last I heard, they aren't a dealer anymore but still do service. Bout an hour away)
La Moto (closest one to me, but have never been there. I have an aversion to driving TOWARD DC. :) )
Europa Macchina  (Bout an hour and a half away.)
Winchester Motorsports (At least an hour and a half away)
Redline (Last I heard they aren't selling MGs anymore but still do service. I bought my Norge there, but they are really WAY too far away. )

Any opinions or experience with service in these places? Any particularly good technicians?

On the other hand, I'm reading that unless there is signs of damage there is no coverage, and then with my lack of documented history, I probably don't have much chance anyhow.

So I'm not even sure I want to bother with a dealer unless it's the best option.

And as someone who used to turn wrenches in a previous life, it seems like this shouldn't be that big of a job. Pete said something about some engines needing new valve shims requiring the heads to be pulled. Something I'd rather not have to do, but shouldn't be a problem, though I'm not sure if that applies to my bike or not, I'll go back and look for it.

Thanks guys for any advice that can help me choose a direction and reduce my stress. It will be greatly appreciated!

[Aaron D.]

Don't go to Speeds. Just don't.

[Lannis]

Scoot Richmond (MotoRichmond) on 7th in Richmond, VA did my Stelvio conversion.   They did an excellent job.

1) Took the head/cambox down to the necessary level of disassembly.

2) Communicated with Piaggio, sent the photos/data of my tappets (discolored but not destroyed), and got Piaggio to send the appropriate repair kit on Piaggio's nickel.

3) Did the conversion.

4) Also checked on other necessary service, and did the centerstand recall and a map update.

All while keeping me up to date, and done at a reasonable cost.   The bike has done 4000 miles since, and is doing great.

If you don't have someone else in mind, I can recommend them.

Lannis

[beetle]

You'll need a 'B' kit. Heads can stay on.

[oldbike54]

You'll need a 'B' kit. Heads can stay on.

 And Pete's video . I say DIY , more satisfying , and cheaper .

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

Hey Lewis, Glad you got your bike fixed.

to the OP,  good luck.  I hope it gets worked out.  I wouldn't wait.

[lucian]

Did my 09 which required the C kit and head removal preemptively at 3,000 miles and  flat tappets already were showing signs of failure. Don't wait, get it done early. pete tutorial proved very useful, here is the link.





http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

[Dilliw]

I had the same situation as you on an '11 that I had just bought with 8k on it and didn't have a clue on the service history.

I took it by Wayne's, he inspected one side and verified it was bad.  With me helping it was a one six pack job and that included watching his daughter change her oil afterwards.   I'm not a mechanic but with Pete's video I'm sure I could have done it by myself with maybe a little extra time.  So I would definitely inspect it yourself to take the worry out of if it will fail inspection or not (I'll wager it is showing plenty of wear). 

Then talk to a dealer.  They can contact Piaggio and determine, providing it fails their inspection (the dealer can't use your photos) Piaggio will accept a claim.  At least they were willing to do that with my bike up front before I authorized a dime. 

Once you have those two data points, that it will fail and Piaggio will accept the claim, then the dealer route is a win/win for both of you.  The dealer is going to make $400-$500 in labor and you are going to save over buying the parts yourself.  My bike stayed in the shop for about 6 weeks waiting on the parts but that was o.k. by me.

And as much as hate to admit it, I would trust a recommendation from Lannis

This was my damage at 8k and was accepted for a claim.

[RightD]

Of your list I have personally used (and would recommend) both Europa and Winchester.

Between the two I thought Europa had a bit more attention to detail, but their labor rate was higher.

If it were my $, I would probably take it to Europa and let them file the claim with Piaggio.

Heard bad things about Speeds and La Moto.

Good luck!
RightD

[pete roper]

FWIW I ALWAYS think it's worth at least trying to get a kit for nix.

As I've said before its very rare that they get knocked back nowadays just so long as the bike has some sort of documented service history. The biggest problem seems to be making sure the shop chosen knows about the problem and is willing to deal with it! When you look at what happened to John Burgess your blood just has to run cold! To be charged something silly, ($2,000?) for an *inspection* and then to be told that his tappets were OK, (They aren't!) is not just negligent it's downright criminal!

Pete

[fanattic]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Aaron, although I didn't have a bad experience with Speeds, I've heard enough stories to make me wary of going back there.
Lannis, your shop in Richmond sounds good, but it's really too much of a hike for me to get there, especially if I have to use Rt 95. I would consider having them pick it up and deliver it (if they offer that) like Redline in Yorktown did with the Norge, but that gets too expensive.

I am inclined to do it myself as it's a good way to get to know it better, but if the labor to have a good shop do it is less than half the cost of the parts, and if Piaggio will cover the parts, I really could use the savings. (I was unemployed for the last 1.5 years, and am still recovering). Pete's comment gives me some hope of them covering the bike as I certainly have not abused or ignored it.

So I will take the time to review Pete's video, possibly go ahead and remove a rocker assembly to confirm wear, and then decide whether to do it myself or take it to Europa or Winchester. I'm happy to hear that RightD recommends either Europa or Winchester, as I've been impressed with both places.

In the meantime, I'll stick with riding the Norge or 'Old Bess', my trusty R60/2 until I get this straightened out.

Dave

[Lannis]

Lannis, your shop in Richmond sounds good, but it's really too much of a hike for me to get there, especially if I have to use Rt 95. I would consider having them pick it up and deliver it (if they offer that) like Redline in Yorktown did with the Norge, but that gets too expensive.

No doubt that ScootRichmond is a bit of a pain in the butt to get to, right in the middle of the city, but they are a very good shop.

I am inclined to do it myself as it's a good way to get to know it better, but if the labor to have a good shop do it is less than half the cost of the parts, and if Piaggio will cover the parts, I really could use the savings.
Dave

Doing it yourself is a great way to go if you have the confidence to do it, along with the helpful videos.   For the heads-out "C" kit I needed (yours is the lower-impact "B", I understand), my shop charged (I think) 9 hours labor at their $90 shop rate, so if you can save yourself that money, have some fun, and learn your bike better than you thought possible,  doing it yourself is the thing ...

Lannis

[MGrego]

Doing it yourself is a great way to go if you have the confidence to do it, along with the helpful videos.   For the heads-out "C" kit I needed (yours is the lower-impact "B", I understand), my shop charged (I think) 9 hours labor at their $90 shop rate, so if you can save yourself that money, have some fun, and learn your bike better than you thought possible,  doing it yourself is the thing ...

Lannis

 :1:

I'm no mechanic but I did the roller conversion on my Norge 6,000 miles ago and running great.  The information on this site will literally walk you through the conversion step by step.  I say just do it yourself !  I'm glad I did --

[rocker59]

 I suspect I will encounter problems with MG for not having the 10km service done by a dealer.
 

Why?  Dealer service is not required to maintain a valid warranty.

Search:  "magnuson-moss warranty act"

[pete roper]

Since your bike is a 'B' kit bike, (Just confirm this by looking for the drill marks in the pant on the heads.) it may indeed be almost as cheap to simply do it yourself.

Check out prices for a 'B' kit from one of the European suppliers and throw in an oil filter and sump gasket and take away the cost of paying for the install, (Say$550-600 with oil etc.) and it may well not be worth bothering with the hassle of taking it to the shop if you're confident you can do it.

1A002063 is the part# for the 'B' kit. (Part# edited. Sorry.)

Pete

[Bill Hagan]

Of your list I have personally used (and would recommend) both Europa and Winchester.

Between the two I thought Europa had a bit more attention to detail, but their labor rate was higher.

If it were my $, I would probably take it to Europa and let them file the claim with Piaggio.

Heard bad things about Speeds and La Moto.

Good luck!
RightD

Not sure where you are in the what I presume is in the D.C. metro blob.

Waltr and crew at Europa are a good set, but I have nothing but good to say about WMS. 

Wrench Mike is not only competent, but he "cares" about his craft and about Guzzis in particular.  I have found him to be painstakingly careful in work on my three Guzzis.  Moreover, he has now done a bunch of tappet swap-outs. 

May take awhile for him to get to yours as he is a one-man band on this work, but I am unaware of a single Piaggio turn-down in the many done there, including those with -- as R59 notes is irrelevant in the USA -- self-help service.

Pete's point about "close is good enough" on any flat-tappet machine with evidence of appropriate care is also what I have observed among those done at WMS.  You might call to confirm.  http://www.winchestermotosports.com

Bill

P.S. Just saw Pete's latest post.  Sounds as if you have a Plan A and Plan B, with others in reserve.     Buon fortuna.

[Lannis]

Why?  Dealer service is not required to maintain a valid warranty.

Search:  "magnuson-moss warranty act"

Unfortunately, you will need a lawyer and file a suit to get Piaggio to care about anybody's warranty act, "magnuson-moss" or whatever.   

When the US dealer goes to Piaggio to make the case for a Piaggio to pony up for a kit, Piaggio will "require" them to send documentation that the bike has had dealer-supplied warranty service up to date.   

If the dealer holds up the "Magnuson-Moss" sign in response, what does Piaggio care about that?   In our case, they simply repeated their demand for the evidence that the bike had been dealer-serviced.

I had my original warranty book for my bike.   There were three services that were "required" to have been done by the dealer.   The first service had the dealer's stamp on it.   The second service was done by me, as the dealer was in the process of going out of business, so I documented what I did and the dealer signed his name to it.   The third service box was blank.

I sent the book to my servicing dealer, and they (I didn't ask how but they were DEFINITELY working FOR me!) got the kit in, after two months delay from Piaggio ....

So the law is one thing - enforcing it may be more than some people want to go through.

Lannis

[rboe]

Why?  Dealer service is not required to maintain a valid warranty.

Search:  "magnuson-moss warranty act"

I bought oil filters from my dealer which made it easier for him to declare to Piaggio maintenance had been done (you can say "magnuson-moss warranty act" but there are things you can do to make it much easier on everyone to document work - in my case buying bits from the dealer and he had computer sales records). This is not the only way, but it worked for me. 

[Dilliw]

Why?  Dealer service is not required to maintain a valid warranty.

Search:  "magnuson-moss warranty act"

I had zero service history information on the bike when I went to see Matthews Fun Machines.  I had just bought it used from another dealer and the service card only showed the initial delivery stamp (signed by GuzziSteve).  I believe that the only information in the Piaggio system for my bike was it had been delivered and that all open campaigns had been completed on the bike.  A dealer here could say for sure but I don't think the system has additional information on oil changes and the like and I was never asked to present the service card.

I just don't think Piaggio is going to push back much here in the U.S. on the documented service history requirement.

[Waltr]

  We have never been asked to supply a service history and have never been turned down for a roller conversion.  Piaggio stopped supplying the gaskets were needed though.  There is a possibilty of a wait for parts to arrive from Italy if not in the US.

[pete roper]

Two Lamers has 'B' kit listed, but not in stock, for �743 for example. Oddly they list 'B' kit as 1A002063, sorry, not odd, my bad. That is 'B' kit, I'll correct my earlier post.

The other alternative is buy an 'A' kit plus rocker covers and short plug tubes etc which has advantages down the track.

Pete

[jlburgess]

FWIW I ALWAYS think it's worth at least trying to get a kit for nix.

As I've said before its very rare that they get knocked back nowadays just so long as the bike has some sort of documented service history. The biggest problem seems to be making sure the shop chosen knows about the problem and is willing to deal with it! When you look at what happened to John Burgess your blood just has to run cold! To be charged something silly, ($2,000?) for an *inspection* and then to be told that his tappets were OK, (They aren't!) is not just negligent it's downright criminal!

Pete

I hate it when I read a thread that says I was ripped off   I was able to bargain them down to $500 for the stellar work though!

[pete roper]

You've still got to get it fixed John. Really, your engine is destroying itself, regardless of what those moonunits told you.

Pete

[Bill Hagan]

Unfortunately, you will need a lawyer and file a suit to get Piaggio to care about anybody's warranty act, "magnuson-moss" or whatever.   

****

So the law is one thing - enforcing it may be more than some people want to go through.

Lannis

Not necessarily.

Not sure where OP lives, but nearly all states have some sort of smalls-claims court system.

Here, e.g., is a FAQ from Fairfax County in Virginia:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/gdc/publications/small-claims-court-procedures-english.pdf

Can still be a PITA, but might be worth the fight.

I'd "help" more, but my Polish Princess is calling and waving some sort of list.    

Ciao.

Bill

[rocker59]

I had zero service history information on the bike when I went to see Matthews Fun Machines.   

I just don't think Piaggio is going to push back much here in the U.S. on the documented service history requirement.

  We have never been asked to supply a service history and have never been turned down for a roller conversion.  Piaggio stopped supplying the gaskets were needed though.  There is a possibilty of a wait for parts to arrive from Italy if not in the US.

 

[pete roper]

Yup, that's good.

[Lannis]

Not necessarily.

Not sure where OP lives, but nearly all states have some sort of smalls-claims court system.

Here, e.g., is a FAQ from Fairfax County in Virginia:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/gdc/publications/small-claims-court-procedures-english.pdf

Can still be a PITA, but might be worth the fight.

I'd "help" more, but my Polish Princess is calling and waving some sort of list.    

Ciao.

Bill

Well, in this case we had a choice between "Standing On Our Rights", trying find a Piaggio agent in this country who would be responsible, waiting however many months or years to "win", and be satisfied that we were "Right" ...

... or, just submitting to their demands, jiggling the numbers to make it conform to their requirements, and get the work done.

We picked the second one in this case.   In general, it may not be an issue, but I just wanted to let people know that it WAS an issue in this case.   As Always, YMMV!

Lannis

[rocker59]

In my experience it's the local dealers, not the Importers or OEMs, who try to hassle owners about "Dealer Required Maintenance".

But it's been many years since I got that kind of static from a shifty dealer.

[pete roper]

In Oz it isn't the importer, or at least the outgoing one. I always found that if you worked with them you could pretty much gaurantee approval. The few ones I had issue with the grief was all from Italy, my guess Noale rather than Mandello.

Pete

[jlburgess]

You've still got to get it fixed John. Really, your engine is destroying itself, regardless of what those moonunits told you.

Pete

To be honest I had to stop riding it or at least very little.  Maybe 300 miles in 8 months.  I've gone nearly broke and can't afford to get it fixed properly.  Maybe I should stat a "go fund me" page for bankrupt Guzzi riders?