Cal Vin Gearbox Output Shaft Seal Leak and Swing Arm Pins Centering Questions

[antmanbee]

I pulled my swing arm yesterday to address a couple of leaks, one from the rubber gaiter joining the swing arm to the gearbox and also some oil or grease getting flung onto the rear rim. There was oil on the center stand which I think may be coming from the gaiter/rear output shaft seal.
I will be attempting to remove and replace the output shaft seal with the box still in the frame  and without removing the shaft nut and speedo worm drive assembly.
The output shaft turns smoothly with no detectable play so I think the bearing is good. The bike has almost 80k miles.
Any tips for getting the output shaft seal out without  damaging the worm drive and sealing surface would be appreciated.

Regarding the swing arm pins and lock nuts, I was under the impression that the pins should be exactly centered after adjusting the preload on the swing arm bearings. This is what I used to do on my old tonti framed Guzzi's 25-30 years ago.
This bike has white paint markings on the frame and lock nuts to indicate where they go, but they are no where close to being centered (pins protruding from frame equal amount). the left pin sticks out about 6mm and the right pin about 3.5mm.
Does the factory mark the frame and lock nuts with little dabs of white paint?
Could it have come from the factory like this?
Can we assume that the frame/engine-gearbox is perfectly centered?
If not perfectly centered, what is the best way to check this alignment?

Other notes,
The gearbox was a little low on oil, I drained about 600-650 ml.
The rear drive had 250ml maybe a bit more.
In the shaft housing was, just guessing about 50ml and a very little bit milky looking.

I have not got the shaft and U-joint out of the housing yet and the rear drive is still attached to the swing arm.
Any tips for removal of this without damage would be appreciated too. The u-joint feels good as far as I can tell with out removing it, moves freely and no play.

On the rear drive I have not yet determined where the leak is coming from. It could just be grease flung onto the rim. There is a ton of grease packed into it.
I may have to just clean it and put it back together with just a little grease and then remove it again after a good ride and inspect again.
Anyway I have enclosed some pictures that may be helpful.

[Wayne Orwig]

I always set the pins the same distance, even on the later models. I've never seen or heard of any other way.


Make sure that the shaft doesn't move forward and rear at all. If the bearing fails, it will more back and forth.


I have gotten that seal out by carefully drilling small holes in the steel part of it, and running small sheet metal screws in it to pull on. You have to be very careful.


The leak can ALSO come from the oring up inside that seals oil from traveling between the shaft and speedo gear.


The rear gearbox looks more like just grease. Maybe a bit too mush grease was put on those splines.

[John A]

I always set the pins the same distance, even on the later models. I've never seen or heard of any other way

I once tried to get the rear tire more in line with the front on an EV but there was not enough adjustment to do that so I wonder if the factory does on later bikes or if it's a ujoint adjustment

[antmanbee]

"The leak can ALSO come from the oring up inside that seals oil from traveling between the shaft and speedo gear."

I know that is a possibility too. I think I remember reading that on the earlier 5 speed boxes that they did not even have that oring. If that is the case the amount of oil leaking from that would be minimal.

"The rear gearbox looks more like just grease. Maybe a bit too mush grease was put on those splines."

This is my suspicion too. although I remember wiping a drip off the bottom of the rear drive but I am not positive it came from the drive. It may have come from farther forward.

There is no detectable play front to back or side to side on the output shaft.

The thing with the pins seem strange to me. I got the bike from the original owner and looked at his service records and I don't recall them having the swing arm off.

Thanks for the tip on removing the seal. I read about that in another WG thread. Probably was a post by you and I think there was a picture too. I can't find that thread now.

[antmanbee]

I always set the pins the same distance, even on the later models. I've never seen or heard of any other way

I once tried to get the rear tire more in line with the front on an EV but there was not enough adjustment to do that so I wonder if the factory does on later bikes or if it's a ujoint adjustment

I thought about that also and that is another whole issue. While aligning the two wheels seems like it should be done and hopefully is, that doesn't mean that the trans output shaft is aligned with the ujoint/drive shaft. Ideally all these components should be aligned. 

[Orange Guzzi]

Install the swingarm and pivot pins, stick your head under the bike and with a flashlight, look at how much clearance there is between the frame and the swing arm.  You will see that there is only about .200"  or much less adjustment from side to side.  Not much.  You or I could adjust the swing arm of to one side and We would not be able to tell while riding the bike.  I have found that the swing arm has to be adjusted off to one side to keep the u joint knuckles from hitting weld splatter inside the swing arm.  The accuracy you are looking for is not critical and will not affect the bike. 

Make sure nothing binds is the most important function of the adjustment process. 

And don't forget the speedo drive removal step. 

[acogoff]

     Not recommending this because I have not tried it yet, but I went down to Joann's fabrics and asked for an assortment of plastic crochet hooks, the plan being that maybe one could be slid behind the seal to exert a bit of pull. Breaking one off in there would not be good either-care required. Pulling the leaking crank seal on my Vanguard B&S lawn tractor. But I have an idea yours will be in there a whole lot tighter than this briggs.

[antmanbee]

Orange Guzzi,

I really don't know what to think about the swing arm alignment. What you are saying seems reasonable considering that ujoints flex, but most everyone makes a point of how critical it is to have the pins exact and to check with a micrometer. I can't believe that the frame and swing arm are made to such exact tolerances that a perfect centering is always the most ideal.
That is why my question about the white marks and if they are factory marks and if the factory aligns the swing arm and how they do it and to what tolerances.
If everything is close to perfect alignment then it stands to reason there will be less stress on the bearings and ujoints. 

[Tom]

I wouldn't trust the paint marks.  I had some on carbs that were set wrong from the factory.  Doesn't hurt to check and set it right.  This tool should help with the output shaft seal removal.  It can also be used to remove fork seals.  Worth the $15.  I bought mine from Snap-on.  They're carried by Carquest too.

http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-58430.aspx?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA&scid=scbplp6819845&sc_intid=LIS58430

[Orange Guzzi]

     Not recommending this because I have not tried it yet, but I went down to Joann's fabrics and asked for an assortment of plastic crochet hooks, the plan being that maybe one could be slid behind the seal to exert a bit of pull. Breaking one off in there would not be good either-care required. Pulling the leaking crank seal on my Vanguard B&S lawn tractor. But I have an idea yours will be in there a whole lot tighter than this briggs.
[/quote

Use a wood screw and a slide hammer to remove the seal.  Use a piece of pvc pipe to re install.  I put a cap on the end that I hammered on. 

[Tom]

Antmanbee.....check out this vid for the seal puller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtsGU2nLrJg

[antmanbee]

Thanks Wayne Orwig, Tom an Orange Guzzi,

I got the seal out without damaging the worm drive. I used a modified Wayne Orwig method. I used a very sharp awl to carefully puncture a couple of holes in the top surface of the seal instead of drilling holes and the used a screw into the awl hole and pliers to pry it out.
I did it this way because I was concerned about metal bits from using a drill getting into the gearbox and also I felt I had better control puncturing a hole rather than drilling.
It came out pretty easy. The seal was hard and black along the sealing lip, looking like it had gotten pretty hot. The seal was a blue standard seal and I used a brown Viton seal to replace it. Hopefully the higher temperature seal will hold up better.

That tool looks good. I may pick one up for next time I need to remove a seal.
I'm always trying to do a job on Sunday with whatever I have on hand.

Everything is all cleaned up and all the splines and gears look good as well as the bearings and ujoints.
The swing arm bearings rotate smoothly and I pried off the seals and packed them with wheel bearing grease.

Now figuring out what grease I want to use on the splines and cush drive gear and also the damn swing arm alignment.

I am considering opening up the cush drive to make sure it moving freely and generally  inspect it. Is this something anybody else commonly or routinely does?

[Orange Guzzi]

Thanks Wayne Orwig, Tom an Orange Guzzi,

I got the seal out without damaging the worm drive. I used a modified Wayne Orwig method. I used a very sharp awl to carefully puncture a couple of holes in the top surface of the seal instead of drilling holes and the used a screw into the awl hole and pliers to pry it out.
I did it this way because I was concerned about metal bits from using a drill getting into the gearbox and also I felt I had better control puncturing a hole rather than drilling.
It came out pretty easy. The seal was hard and black along the sealing lip, looking like it had gotten pretty hot. The seal was a blue standard seal and I used a brown Viton seal to replace it. Hopefully the higher temperature seal will hold up better.

That tool looks good. I may pick one up for next time I need to remove a seal.
I'm always trying to do a job on Sunday with whatever I have on hand.

Everything is all cleaned up and all the splines and gears look good as well as the bearings and ujoints.
The swing arm bearings rotate smoothly and I pried off the seals and packed them with wheel bearing grease.

Now figuring out what grease I want to use on the splines and cush drive gear and also the damn swing arm alignment.

I am considering opening up the cush drive to make sure it moving freely and generally  inspect it. Is this something anybody else commonly or routinely does?

I replaced the cush drive rubbers in my bike.  They were not loose, but not tight either.  I was surprised at how much better the bike rolled. 

[John A]

Yes, absolutely service the cush, you'll be glad you did. I use heavy duty silicon on the rubbers and some grease on the hub.

[antmanbee]

John A,

What silicone did you use on the rubbers?
My rubbers don't seem really hard.
Did you drill a couple of holes in each rubber as recommended by others?
What grease is recommended on the hub?

I'm glad I did the cush as it was crudded up and frozen. I think I am going to do it every time or every other time I do a rear tire.

[John A]

CRC heavy duty silicone spray, from menards or someplace like that. Just get the stuff that says heavy duty. I use the same grease on the hub as I do on the splines, I'm trying some fifth wheel grease right now but I won't know how it works till next tire change or after. I do the Cush about once a year. Yes I drilled holes in my rubbers, I can't tell the difference . I used a spade bit for wood that worked better than a regular bit. 1/4 inch, I think.

[antmanbee]

The 5th wheel grease sounds like a good idea. I just ordered some Castrol 5th wheel grease in an 8oz tube and will pick up the CRC HD silicone too.

Info from castrol,
with maximum stay-in-place performance. Its graphite/moly formulation and high percent of tackifiers give it a true affinity for metal surfaces. The tacky tenacious properties of the Castrol Fifth Wheel Grease coupled with 10% lubricating solids further enables this grease to provide outstanding adhesion to fifth wheels in even the toughest operating conditions.

Sounds like it might not fling off like regular grease does.

[antmanbee]

I am still not sure what I am going to do with the swing arm centering. Please see 1st post.
I still have these questions:

Does the factory mark the frame and lock nuts with little dabs of white paint?
Could it have come from the factory like this?
Can we assume that the frame/engine-gearbox is perfectly centered?
If not perfectly centered, what is the best way to check this alignment?

And my new questions are:
Is the alignment of the swing arm to have the rear wheel in line with the frame and front wheel or for the output shaft of the gearbox to be in line with the driveshaft?
Would or should I be able to tell if the swing arm is off by about 1/8"?

The bike tracks straight and leans easy to either side in corners. I can't feel anything abnormal with the uneven mounting of the swing arm.
There seems to be no wear on the ujoint, splines, swing arm bearings, carrier bearing, output shaft bearing or uneven wear on the tires.

I was hoping that someone with many years of experience with dozens of Tonti Guzzi swing arm removals and replacements would have answers to these questions.

This is the only hitch to getting it back together. I would like to get it right.

Thanks

[rodekyll]

I was hoping a shop mechanic would field this.  Since nobody competent stepped up, I'll take a swing:


No, there is no witness paint on the swingarm pins.

Don't know about all that engine centering stuff.  I don't think it relates to your question.  It's a fairly tight cradle on a Tonti -- not a whole lot of room for things to shift.

The purpose is to center the output shaft with the swing arm.  I doubt that there is 1/8" of misalignment possible.  That's a huge number.  If you could misalign by that amount I'd expect the splines and bearings would fail prematurely if they didn't bind on initial rotation. 

The swingarm alignment isn't going to be felt in handling or ride unless you've either lost a pivot bearing (never heard of that) or bound one.  Alignment issues will make themselves known over time by premature wearing of bearings and splines.  In the mid-advanced stages you can perhaps feel a harmonic throb from the side-stressed components.  For my money it makes more sense to do a good alignment than risk u-joints, tranny bearings or the carrier bearing.

To center the swingarm, tighten the pivot pins evenly down until tight.  This seats the bearings.  I use a micrometer to ensure that they are even. 
Loosen them evenly until the swing arm freefalls.  That should be just a nudge back on each side. 
Keeping the pins in that location, tighten the locking nuts.
recheck for smooth freefall.

[antmanbee]

rodekyll,

I followed the procedure you outlined exactly on all my previous Guzzis. All of them were a long time ago. I have done this on a couple of t3s and a couple of Converts and a G5 and never had any problems.
I thought maybe marking the pivot nuts and frame was something possibly done on newer Tonti models, it's 30 years difference between the 2007 Calvin and my old bikes.
There was 1/8" difference, I measured carefully when I disassembled and there was no binding.
What started me thinking that maybe the alignment of the swing arm was possibly more for frame/front wheel, was that the swing arm is almost always out of alignment on the vertical plane (swing arm goes up and down) more than 1/8". Why should the horizontal variance  put so much more of a load on the spline/bearings than the vertical?
I'm still not sure what I am going to do, but I have a few more days to think about it because the monster hurricane is comming.

[Wayne Orwig]

Quote from: antmanbee on Today at 07:51:56 PM

rodekyll,

I followed the procedure you outlined exactly on all my previous Guzzis. All of them were a long time ago. I have done this on a couple of t3s and a couple of Converts and a G5 and never had any problems.
I thought maybe marking the pivot nuts and frame was something possibly done on newer Tonti models, it's 30 years difference between the 2007 Calvin and my old bikes.
There was 1/8" difference, I measured carefully when I disassembled and there was no binding.
What started me thinking that maybe the alignment of the swing arm was possibly more for frame/front wheel, was that the swing arm is almost always out of alignment on the vertical plane (swing arm goes up and down) more than 1/8". Why should the horizontal variance  put so much more of a load on the spline/bearings than the vertical?
I'm still not sure what I am going to do, but I have a few more days to think about it because the monster hurricane is comming.

Never heard anything about an intentional tire offset.

I personally believe that it would take a huge offset to notice a handling difference.

Unlike the earlier Tonti bikes, the Cal Vin has a different u-joint setup to intentionally allow the drive shaft to be offset to the outside. That allows for slightly wider tires. The older bikes had a double u-joint more like a CV joint. It didn't allow for side to side offsets, just angular changes.

[guzzisteve]

I would not worry about the paint it was to tighten the big chrome nut. This is so the wrench at the dealerships can see if anything has backed off while doing an inspection. If the nut backs out it could also back out the pin w/it moves.
Alignment is just like any other Tonti frame, center the pins the same w/a snug preload just enough so there is no side play.
I would think the leak was caused by the vent hose being kinked at some point or too much oil, not from alignment.
A light application of any grease will work on splines if you like using it.
It's not rocket science, it's a very simple machine. Not everything coming out of the factory is right, they want to get the stuff gone off the assembly line and it'll get fixed over here, maybe.

[antmanbee]

Thanks guzzisteve,

I will center it when it goes back together. When is the question now, my house may be blown to pieces by Mathew.
It threw me and made me doubt what I had always done because the centering was off by quite a bit and I had never seen the paint marks on the frame and nuts before. I didn't think the alignment caused the leak.
The output seal lip was hard and blackish so I am pretty confident that was the problem on the leak but I will check the vent hose just to be sure.
That's a discouraging thought that the factory doesn't get it right. 

[Tom]

The factory doesn't do the everything correctly.  We commonly call that person at the factory "Guido".  I'd like to punch Guido in the face for the wrong settings on the accelerator pumps on my LM IV SE.  They had the paint marks on the adjustment screws.  Left side was shooting a stream of gas about 6 feet while the right was about 4".  A lot of the guys want to punch Guido in the face because of no grease anywhere on the bike that would need it.  Steer neck bearings etc.

Hope all goes well with you and Matthew.   

[guzzisteve]

'That's a discouraging thought that the factory doesn't get it right.'

It's a time thing on the assembly line, they'll send it and we'll fix it under warranty.

Stay safe in FL, it's a big one!!

[Mackers]

It looks like I may have the same issue with my '02 EV.  Oiliness under the rubber boot and now a drop from the swingarm drain hole.  It's definitely gear oil, not rear drive.  Is there any special technique required to drive in the new seal?