Author Topic: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety  (Read 4912 times)

Online oldbike54

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Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« on: November 14, 2016, 10:00:43 PM »
 Just completed a very interesting discussion with a really smart guy (yes , a member here) re motorcycle safety . Now , I make no claims to being capable of keeping up , but most of it makes sense , and his assertions on this subject jibe completely with practices I have employed for at least 40 years and ?00,000 miles with no real accidents or tickets .

 So here are the salient points .

 1 Riding at a slightly elevated pace while fully engaged is safer than riding slow and not being engaged .

 2 Working on the basic skills of riding a MC until they are done at a subconscious level allowing the conscious brain to focus on traffic and conditions is important . Clutch , throttle , and brake functions should require very little conscious thought .

 3 Never stop in the middle of a lane , always move to one side , whether or not a car is present or not . Stay out of the oily spot .

 4 When riding on a multi-lane road during times of high traffic , get in the fast lane and roll the throttle on , that way you only have to watch 2 sides for sudden movement while keeping a check on your mirrors . Plus , most modern multi-lane freeways have an inside shoulder to use an escape path .

 5 Gear is great , but is no replacement for good riding skills , and turn indicators and horns do not create a force field .

 6 Serious dirt bike skills always make a better street rider .
 
 7 In the end , a committed motorcycle rider that is serious about always learning is a safer rider than the casual rider .


  Dusty
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Online wrbix

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2016, 10:07:11 PM »
8.    When in doubt, gas it.

Seriously - has gotten me out of unstable status more than once.
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Online cappisj1

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2016, 10:42:04 PM »
I always thank my dad for teaching me to ride trials as a kid. I agree with number 2, knowing how to control the bike without thinking about it so you can concentrate on other issues. Always be thinking of an escape route, give yourself room and make yourself seen. Oh and stay out of town and ride on low traffic two lane roads.  :wink:

Offline tris

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 01:28:36 AM »
...... 2 Working on the basic skills of riding a MC until they are done at a subconscious level allowing the conscious brain to focus on traffic and conditions is important . Clutch , throttle , and brake functions should require very little conscious thought .....

Being a late comer to motorcycle riding this is the one that I remain cautious of as I know I run out of "band-width" to process everything that comes at you.

I'd also add at No. 9 Advanced training. I spent a day on a Bike-safe course over here run by the Police - I learnt a hell of a lot
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Offline johnr

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 02:42:28 AM »
Good points all. Copied and saved.

Additional to Item 1, a few mph faster than the traffic flow means that potential problems tend to arrive from up front where you can see them coming.
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Offline simonome

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 03:42:22 AM »
Just completed a very interesting discussion with a really smart guy (yes , a member here) re motorcycle safety . Now , I make no claims to being capable of keeping up , but most of it makes sense , and his assertions on this subject jibe completely with practices I have employed for at least 40 years and ?00,000 miles with no real accidents or tickets .

I've got few months and few thousand miles on the saddle of a bike, but I can summarize what kept me out of troubles in my hundred of thousands of miles in a car like this: "Behave like all the other dwellers of the road are a bunch of drunken monkeys". What I've learned on a bike will complete the statement: "Behave like all the other dwellers of the road are a bunch of drunken, blind ad deaf monkeys".

Eery time I hit the road I apply this principle, and I can stay out of trouble, while consistently driving much faster than average traffic flow.

I use the same criteria even in the parking lot infact. My wife gets mad because I always find the most remote parking spot at the supermarket, but I'm sure that this has saved me hundreds of scratches and dents over time.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 03:45:28 AM by simonome »

Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2016, 07:01:02 AM »
If you start with #6 (dirt bikes) #2 comes naturally (use of controls) I use my trials riding skills every time a ride. Keep all controls covered at all times.

I also ride a little faster than traffic. I call it "blow the flow" I feel more visible to cars around me. As always, following too closely behind a can can get you in trouble. A car can straddle something in the road and you might not see the obstruction.
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Offline charlie b

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2016, 07:12:07 AM »
All of those are good, but, the one that has kept me out of trouble the most is this.  Especially the blind part.

"Behave like all the other dwellers of the road are a bunch of drunken, blind and deaf monkeys".

Drive as if NO one sees you, at all.

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Offline chaoselephant23

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2016, 07:21:35 AM »
8.    When in doubt, gas it.
...

I think you meant to say Goose It!!!!  :boozing:
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2016, 07:23:31 AM »
Quote
8.    When in doubt, gas it.

That's the dirt bike skills.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2016, 07:26:31 AM »
I have taught over 1000 beginners via the MSF program since 2008. Number 2 is the most difficult thing for new riders to learn. I will add number 8-keep your head and eyes up and focus on what is around you. There are no lights, bells or whistles that will tell you how to ride. The instrument cluster is not autopilot. If any one has taken the BRC, remember exercise 2? Back and forth across the range while paddle walking then working toward getting the feet on the pegs. The phrase I use most is "Stop looking down. Get your eyes out of the cockpit." Riding is not like playing a video game.

Thanks for the list.

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2016, 07:27:58 AM »
I wrote this blog about riding to the local alt news web site last week.  Similar ideas, not as detailed but a little bit of contrast to the cruiser crowd and the "biker" deal.

https://nondoc.com/2016/11/09/riders-advice-motorcyclists-drivers/
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Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2016, 07:39:51 AM »
As always, following too closely behind a can can get you in trouble. A car can straddle something in the road and you might not see the obstruction.
Yup.  Bent a rim changing lanes and hitting a wood block.  Changing lanes opens up a new perspective on the road ahead.  Stuff may be in your way that wasn't before and that you couldn't see.  Not following too closely can be hard to accomplish when you need to be able to avoid unexpected obstacles, but need to do it anyway.
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Offline RANDM

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2016, 07:41:44 AM »
That's pretty much how we all rode, after the obligatory 2 yrs
of crash and learn technique back I the late 60's. Still do with
Modern refinements like "counter steering" :)
I use to drive cabs in Sydney and found the just a little faster
than the surrounding traffic coupled with reading the traffic
properly to be the least tiring and most effective way to handle
it for 12 hrs at a time. Pushing through is no more effective,
More dangerous and more tiring. A place to be Assertive and
incisive, not aggressive.

Slow riding is good as well as dirt - was a Posty on a CT110
for a while in semi rural surrounds. You ride one handed most
Of the time, your either sticking one in as you go by or grabbing
the next with the other most of the time.

Maurie.

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2016, 07:50:46 AM »
The old timers told me "learn to recognize what trouble looks like before you get there".

I've taken two Stayin' Safe over the road classes.  Time WELL spent and a great deal of fun to boot.
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Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2016, 07:53:49 AM »
 If riding for 45 years and not crashing is a judge of good skills, that's me...I bought my first dirt bike last year, I have fallen down on it  :grin:  Actually I consider myself an average rider who's mediocre skills have been assisted by machines with reputations for good handling over power and style...
  My tricks, never stop on a busy road to make a left turn...When coming to an intersection watch the head of the driver in a car waiting to cross the intersection...The driver's head will swivel right and left and if the driver doesn't focus on you then he hasn't seen you and will pull out...Loud pipes don't save lives but a loud horn can....Dirt bike experience can sharpen street skills... But I'll argue that if you're riding a 700 pound bike ,dirt bike skills may not apply...
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 07:54:25 AM by Rough Edge racing »
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Online Ncdan

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2016, 08:01:03 AM »
As a 50 year ridder and ex motor cop allow me to jump in. All of those points were great and drilled into our heads constantly, if I may add a couple.
1- when ridding wet roads watch the white and yellow lines as they are not asphalt or concrete

2- slow down when approaching railroad tracks and hit them dead on not at an angle.

3- treat every vehicle that approaches an intersection like they don't see you so slow down and attempt to get eye contact.

4- excessive speed is the major cause for MC fatalities.

5-the most dangerous aspect of nite time ridding is animals, deer, dogs etc.  there again your speed is a major factor for surviving a collision with them

Do not over ride your reflexes, which may reduce with age.

One final little tidbit of information. The number one thing I have discovered over my many years of ridding that I know for a fact increases your odds of ridding without being abused or overlooked by other motorists is so simple......WEAR A WHITE HELMET AS YOU WILL GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF A MOTOR COP. There are uncountable times that I have had drivers who were about to pull out in front of me then slam on breaks when the probably could have made it. The determining factor as their thoughts was when they buckled their seat belt as I approached. I have actually had them laugh and give a thumbs up as I passed and a couple to offer me a one finger salute:). 

Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2016, 08:45:13 AM »
......WEAR A WHITE HELMET AS YOU WILL GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF A MOTOR COP.





Bravo on that one! I discovered this a few years back and it sure seems to work as people conditioned to watch for a police motor guy and they wear white!!

It works!!

Yes! That is a good tip! Never owned a helmet that wasn't white. Hey, they're cheaper too! (Guzzi content)

BTW.." gassing it", on pavement is not always a good choice!
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Online SmithSwede

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2016, 10:36:07 AM »
Great thread.

I'll add a few more.

1)  Make yourself 100% responsible for every instant of your riding.   Stop the typical driver's mentality of attributing blame to other drivers who don't follow the rules, the "idiots" who are driving badly, bemoaning the road engineers who designed an on-ramp, or the weather and how it affects your ride.   Stop it---just stop it.   Adopt the mentality that it's totally, 100% on you to avoid the accident.   If bad drivers are breaking the rules, it's your job to anticipate how and when they will do that.   It's your responsibility to identify and deal with the idiots.  It's all on you---do not permit yourself to shift blame and responsibility onto others, as that will cause you to be less aggressive and active in your monitoring of risk.

You can have your lawyer argue who was "at fault" after the accident.   That's really just a legal question.   But while actually riding, put every shred of responsibility onto your own shoulders, and act accordingly.

2)  Aggressively manage risk.  Unfortunately for riders, most riders also driver cars.  And cars teach drivers to have the feeling that they are relatively safe.   Car inculcate the mind-set that you can passively observe deteriorating traffic patterns and increases in the risk profile.   On a bike, I think you should aggressively manage each and every risk you actively seek out and identify.     Idiot driver to your left who doesn't seem to be paying attention.   Clear the area---aggressively get away from the now identified risk---slow down, speed up, change lanes.   But do not permit the moron to be in a position to hurt you.   Maybe it's ok to do that in a car, but the bike is a different animal.  Etc.  etc.   
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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2016, 10:55:43 AM »
I like #7 , continue to learn .
I would add : It is easy , once you get away from traffic , out on a country or mountain road , to get into a rhythm ; to start exploring the depths of your perceived abilities .
A rider on public roads needs to discipline himself to ride at 2/3 to 3/4 , to allow for unforeseen conditions . Rein in the boy racer self image .

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2016, 11:08:33 AM »
Another one.

Reflect on the fact that accidents typically have multiple causes, and then adjust your riding accordingly.  Think about the Swiss Cheese model of risk management.

The mental image I use is that risk is like a monster with multiple tentacles.  This risk monster won't actually be able to hurt or kill you unless he gets a certain number of his tentacles wrapped around you.  It may not be clear exactly how many tentacles it take to cause a particular accident, but typically the post-accident investigation will show multiple tentacles that were permitted to accumulate until disaster finally occurs.

Part of what active and aggressive risk management involves is the ability to detect when one of those tentacles starts wrapping itself around you, and then taking steps to get rid of that tentacle before more build up.

Suppose you are kinda tired, have been riding all day.   OK, you have now permitted a fatigue tentacle to get hold of you.   Going a bit fast to make time?   That's a second tentacle--speed.  Now you have turned west, and are riding into the setting sun.  You just got your third tentacle, reduced visibility.   Whoa, now it's beginning to rain a bit?   You've got a fourth tentacle--reduced traction.  Dang it, now you have some kid in a jacked-up pick-up truck who is tail-gating you a bit on that wet two lane country road?  That's probably two or three more tentacles right there.   

Don't just sit there.   Get out your metaphorical risk management knife, and start stabbing and getting rid of these accumulating tentacles.    Slow down.  And/or a take a break and wait till sunset.   Shed the tail-gater.   Etc. 



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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2016, 11:14:38 AM »
Lots of good info here and some new stuff too.

I always pretend that I am invisible and what would that car do if I was not here? Would they pull out? Make a left turn? Change lanes? This really takes up a lot of my (limiter) mental power and makes riding safer but much less enjoyable around town. Partly why I like off road riding more now.

 
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Offline normzone

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2016, 11:21:58 AM »
This is an interesting discussion thread, thanks.

Several times in the past year I have watched drivers begin to roll as I approached them, and I responded with a full stop. It might have been referred to as a panic stop or an emergency stop, but I was not panicked and there was no emergency.

I would have ... probably ... been safe continuing on, the driver ... likely ... would have waited until I went past, but I viewed the stop as good practice, and also as deliberately keeping my trust threshold low. I know my trust threshold is higher than it could be, but if I stopped for every fool who began rolling as I approached I'd still be back in AZ where I bought the bike three years ago.
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Offline dguzzi

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2016, 11:47:28 AM »
I tend to treat all drivers as if they are sent to kill me...so I avoid them if at all possible.
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Online Ncdan

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2016, 12:02:45 PM »
Oh, I forgot another very important life saving defensive act.
If you come up on traffic stopped, especially  on the interstate, when you approach the vehicle in front of you, stay way to the left so if the next vehicle coming up behind you can't get stopped you can scoot past the stopped cars on the shoulder of the highway, avoiding getting hit from behind and pinned between two vehicles. There are many ridders killed every year like this.
One more, left turn vehicles blinded by the vehicle in front of you will make their turn when the car in front of you passes then turn in front of you.   
     Great post, even an old salt like me can get a few good pointers!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 12:05:29 PM by Ncdan »

Online oldbike54

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2016, 12:10:10 PM »
 Dan , we are all learning here  :thumb: Of course the "smart" guy mentioned in the heading has yet to reveal himself , but if he keeps posting wise comments you will figure out who it is  :laugh:

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2016, 02:23:29 PM »
 :thumb:
Dan , we are all learning here  :thumb: Of course the "smart" guy mentioned in the heading has yet to reveal himself , but if he keeps posting wise comments you will figure out who it is  :laugh:

 Dusty

Offline mjptexas

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2016, 03:03:16 PM »
Great comments.

One thing I've been focusing on for the last couple of years is 'Ride a smooth ride'.  What I mean by that is smooth off the line, smooth into the corner, smooth out of the corner, smooth to the stoplight and so on.

I started practicing this notion of 'smooth riding' on a particularly twisty road a few miles from my house (LowRyter knows the one I'm talking about).  I found that when I did this I could actually ride the road faster, safer and with less stress than when I was trying too hard.  Over the course of time this mindset has permeated my riding style leading to a more satisfying (and I believe safer) rides.
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Offline RANDM

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2016, 03:21:58 PM »
With cars at intersections watching their heads to see if they've
Clocked you can be unreliable - mostly it works but not always.
The reason is that we all have a small blind spot where the
Optic nerve comes together, you may "feel" the eye contact
yet they haven't actually seen you. As a Postie we rode bright
red bikes, wearing Dayglo yellow outfits with White helmets
And even a Dayglo yellow effing Flag on a 5ft stick waving
around and still got knocked over regularly.

So even if you feel eye contact has been made, still check
the tires for the first hint of movement.
An alternative I use often is to weave a little within my lane,
You can be "hidden" amongst a background of the cars
behind you going in the same direction at the same speed.
If you weave a little you move relative to that background
and stick out better.

I tend to do my traffic checks on a regular constant ordered
way. That way I get an updated picture of the Pattern of the
Traffic around me and as far back and in front as I can see.
You look not at individuals but at the pattern - Rogue drivers
Will stick out as they push and bully their way through because
They're aberrations that disturb the pattern.

You may laugh at me but I haven't used my Horn in 5.5 yrs
To me it's a temptation to put your fate in someone else's
Uknown hands. " oh - has he seen me? I'll toot my horn" so
you waste your "save my fat arse space" tooting at a car
that may have a 4,000W sterio with woofers turned up to 11
And the pricks probably listening to a phone AND texting.
Asses the situation and take your own action to secure your
safety rather than expect someone else to act because you
Tooted a dinky Horn.

Maurie.

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Re: Discussion with a really smart guy re MC safety
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 03:30:11 PM »
 Maurie , that weaving thing works , or seems to . Reminded of the story George Gobel would tell about being stationed in Oklahoma while in the USAF . He was a radar guy , and made the rightful claim that he was obviously good at his job , as Oklahoma never came under attack during his watch
 :laugh: Still , weaving is a good idea .

 Oh , about that horn thing , never use it accept to honk at a friend , or cute girls  :laugh:

 Dusty
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