Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?

[bad Chad]

For the moment, Guzzi as stopped production of anything with any real sporting stance.  The CARC bikes are done.  The Griso, the most sporting of them, was super cool, but like all the CARC bikes, they never sold above mediocre numbers.

HD seems to have the same problem, albeit of a much larger scale, but the similarities can't be denied.  They finally produced a sporting sportster, the XR, followed by the even better XRR, first only for the EU.  And then the North american market howled, bring them here!  HD did, and within 3-4 years, they were discontinued, because of slow sales!

The scale of manufacturing is different, but both mfg seem to have the same problem.  Not enough people want to buy there efforts at "sporting" bikes.  I'm not sure what the answer is, I'm just raising the question.  If you were Guzzi, or even HD, would you be think, "man we need to bring out a cool sport bike, the masses are dying for one!  Or would you be thinking, "man, we should stick with what sells, and it's not our sport bikes!"  In Guzzi's case in North America, my guess is there are 300/400 guys who would rush out a buy a new Guzzi sport bike, and then the rest would sit, just like in years past.  What's the answer?

[Arizona Wayne]

Harley had Buell and got rid of them.   Moto Guzzi is owned by Piaggio who also has Aprilia for fast bikes so there you go.

[fotoguzzi]

I just wonder where HD would be if they had given Buell the green $ light and went all in.. instead of all out.. say yah, dump the HD lump and go full on with the Helicon motor.. give him full support to develop a race/sport bike.. that could have really been something.  they could have two company's like Polaris has w/Indian/Victory and go after more the one market niche, instead they gave up on anything new..

[willowstreetguzziguy]

The sales numbers seem to indicate that the American rider is not willing to shell out their bucks on a V-twin sport bike. The question is WHY? Is it the price, lack of performance, or something other. Unless the demographics change, I think younger riders are more into the 3 &4 cylinder performance and light weight Sport bikes. There's a large quantity of these types of sport bikes on the used marketplace for a lot less money. They also don't remember the heritage of the V-twin.  IMHO

[Arizona Wayne]

I heard the Harley cruiser riders ignored the Buell riders.  Didn't want to have anything to do with them.  After Buell the V Rod didn't find success either.   The majority of Harley riders like 1 image and that's it. 

[Kev m]

"Stuck" is subjective and a matter of opinion.

Yes I think they are currently on similar paths.

Buell was neat their biggest problem (other then Eric's stubbornness) was Harley ham stringing them by limiting their franchises to Harley dealers.

Too many Harley dealers didn't really want them or in any way understand the customer base. I think they would have done much better in metric multi-brand dealers.

That said yeah, the sportbike market is cut throat many will just buy on numbers which leaves Harley, Buell, or Guzzi effectively out of the running.

I can't imagine why Piaggio would pursue a Guzzi sportbike with Aprilia in the house.

I think the best we could hope for is a retro sport or sport tourer in the future and that probably depends on the market.

[willowstreetguzziguy]

The younger generation that would normally be taking up motorcycling in their 20's, don't have the money and can't pull their heads away from their devices. In addition, they've been told that motorcycling is dangerous and is not worth their time.

[Scud]

The sales numbers seem to indicate that the American rider is not willing to shell out their bucks on a V-twin sport bike.

It's not just the V-twin configuration. Ducati seems to be doing just fine with V-twin sport bike sales - but they also go racing.

But to the original question. Both makes have a heritage or legacy brand that seems to identify the marque and make it a bit difficult to break out.

[oldbike54]

 No , Harley is on board the Titanic , Guzzi is on the Minnow . Both may be headed for disaster , but the accommodations are a bit different .

 Dusty

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Yep, times they are a changin'! Companies need to adapt to the changing market or sink.

[Arizona Wayne]

The sales numbers seem to indicate that the American rider is not willing to shell out their bucks on a V-twin sport bike. The question is WHY?


Seems you're forgetting about Ducati and it's ever growing sales in the US. 

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.

[Lcarlson]

Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.

Don't exactly agree with that -- Guzzi has its own "cool factor"; it's just different, as it should be. That said, there really isn't much point in Guzzi producing an aggressive race replica-type sportbike. Leave that to Aprilla, which has much more recent race credibility. OTOH, an open-class roadster, possibly using the existing 1400 motor, could be pretty appealing.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.

Guzzi's main draw is that it's quirky and most people have never heard of it....  Unfortunately if people don't know it exists, not gonna sell many bikes...

I dont think Guzzi has any cool factor to it at all... I go to Rallies, I'm pushing 40 and I'm the youngest person there by 15years... Guzzisti are many, things.. but cool is not one of them...  Buncha old cheapskates with their fairings held on with gaffer tape LOL

The one group of younger people who want the cachet of a quirky, little-heard-of brand, backed up with true historical authenticity are hipsters... and well, you see how they are received by the suspender snappers.

[Arizona Wayne]

Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.

Moto Guzzi definitely has a Kool factor but I think it's more for rare/uniqueness and durability.

[oldbike54]

 Mr Mayor , I don't think you understand what cool really is .

 Dusty

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Go watch a Steve McQueen movie, now he was cool.  Only the cool die young.

[rocker59]

Cool Factor.  Guzzi had it...

[Tom]

An SP1400 Sport Tourer would be cool.

[Kev m]

Wouldn't the 1400 lump be just plain too big for the market and type of bike?

The CARCs were big and heavy enough, a replacement bike in the Adventure, Sport Touring, or Standard/Sporting category would be a non starter heavier than that and really SHOULD be at least 50-100# lighter.

Which means in my mind that either:

1. They'll have a new, smaller, water-cooled lump to fit the niche. More power, lower emissions, maybe even lighter weight.

Or

2. Base it on the 850 smallblock.

Or maybe I'm just missing the plan. I mean if they hadn't basically already promised a new Stelvio I'd just guess we're going to see Calis and V7/V9 smallblocks and nothing in between.

But still we know emissions are going to force them to look at water-cooling eventually, and if that's already part of the CARC death then #1 really makes sense.

What would really be neat is a combo of both ideas, not that it appeals to me.

[leafman60]

Guzzisti are many, things.. but cool is not one of them...  Buncha old cheapskates with their fairings held on with gaffer tape LOL

LMAO

[Caffeineo]

For myself and maybe other boomers......my road racing days are over. The first non Japanese UJM/sport bike I ever got was a 1999 Bassa 3 years ago. The forward lean and weight on the hands of sport bikes just leads to wrist and shoulder pain. So I like the upright riding position of cruisers/standards. Also a bit of my desire to see how fast I can go around every corner has been toned down by a realization of my mortality. Seeing/hearing about friends getting badly hurt and wanting to avoid that has caused me to.....slow down. A lot. The Bassa could go around every corner as fast as I want to go now. Maybe just an aging rider population finds sport bike painful and realize they can enjoy riding somewhere close to the speed limit??? 

[Arizona Wayne]

Maybe the few CARC bikes that broke in half we know of spooked MG so they aren't using that design any more.  Not only that none of the new MGs are really light for their displacements.  As their current customers age this becomes more important year by year.  Ducatis are light compared to their competition.

[Aaron D.]

Trying to be cool is never cool.

Got to laugh at the idea that Guzzi needs a sport bike, so they don't sink like Harley.

[LowRyter]

a  good riding motorcycle will never go out of style.

just make a bike that handles and has power, looks good and some of us will be there.

[rocker59]

a  good riding motorcycle will never go out of style.

just make a bike that handles and has power, looks good and some of us will be there.

Yep.  A successor to the V11 Sport/LeMans.

[Penderic]

Not a Guzzi.


 

[Tom]

Wouldn't the 1400 lump be just plain too big for the market and type of bike?

The CARCs were big and heavy enough, a replacement bike in the Adventure, Sport Touring, or Standard/Sporting category would be a non starter heavier than that and really SHOULD be at least 50-100# lighter.

Which means in my mind that either:

1. They'll have a new, smaller, water-cooled lump to fit the niche. More power, lower emissions, maybe even lighter weight.

Or

2. Base it on the 850 smallblock.

Or maybe I'm just missing the plan. I mean if they hadn't basically already promised a new Stelvio I'd just guess we're going to see Calis and V7/V9 smallblocks and nothing in between.

But still we know emissions are going to force them to look at water-cooling eventually, and if that's already part of the CARC death then #1 really makes sense.

What would really be neat is a combo of both ideas, not that it appeals to me.

A SP1400 would work for me but it would be a heavier bike so I'd have to settle for the Audace, Eldorado 1400 or the 1400 Cal Custom.  The Audace is a little lighter but the Eldo handles better.  Using the other platforms would get you a newer bike that does the same thing my '80 SP1000 does.  No gain there.  This would be for my Mainland touring bike.

The 2013 V7 Racer w/chrome tank looks like the next bike for the fleet out here.

[rocker59]

Not a Guzzi.


 

I saw that on Pawn Stars in Las Vegas awhile back.  Wonder how it got to Texas ?

[LowRyter]

Yep.  A successor to the V11 Sport/LeMans.

another 25 HP.  good ergos, similar styling, equal handling and you've got something.

1400 replacement (120 HP) would kill it.