Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?

[TodkaVonic]

This thread reads like a young doc telling a centenarian how to live long. There's a formula that both HD and MG have followed pretty dang well over the last 100 odd years and it seems to exclude, for the most part, and I know I'm generalizing here, excessively sporty motorcycles. Lamenting that as a failure of marketing or of evidence of not knowing or caring what exactly what I, an anonymous dude online, wants, is silly. They're focusing on what they do best and what makes them the most money, and, again, longevity would argue that they know what they're doing.

[Aaron D.]

Despite the world championships and the wins in certain series for production bikes, the main part of Guzzi's market and tradition have been in clever motorcycles for real world use. Usually built from the parts bin for years after an innovative design is sold.

I can't believe the stuck their very sporty Tonti frame under a cruiser, but it has kept them alive.

[Scud]

Wasn't Guzzi's peak in production when they were supplying a lot of police motorcycles? I see mostly BMWs and Harleys as police bikes these days. For a cruiser or tourer, nothing says "safety, reliability, and all-day comfort" like a police model. I wonder what it would take to get Guzzi back on some police forces in the USA? It seems like it would be good for Guzzi to be "stuck" with a few big police contracts - just like Harley.

[Arizona Wayne]

Wasn't Guzzi's peak in production when they were supplying a lot of police motorcycles? I see mostly BMWs and Harleys as police bikes these days. For a cruiser or tourer, nothing says "safety, reliability, and all-day comfort" like a police model. I wonder what it would take to get Guzzi back on some police forces in the USA? It seems like it would be good for Guzzi to be "stuck" with a few big police contracts - just like Harley.

For Guzzi to sell police bikes like they do in Europe they have to supply dealers w/lots of backup parts for maintenance.  Never going to happen in US.   Not to mention few dealers big enough to handle the servicing volume.  MG is a small time operation in US.

[Kiwi_Roy]

For Guzzi to sell police bikes like they do in Europe they have to supply dealers w/lots of backup parts for maintenance.  Never going to happen in US.   Not to mention few dealers big enough to handle the servicing volume.  MG is a small time operation in US.

They did it in the 70s, why not again.

How many modern Californias do you think they would be selling today if they hadn't captured the police market back then?

It would only take one or two police departments to realize the value for money and they could take off again.

[bobbyfromnc]

Lots of good reading and opinions here. Let me share with you my experiences of being a Guzzi rider. I have a 2014 California Touring and without fail where ever I ride to here in NC, VA, SC I get asked these kind of questions and statements... Man What is it? Where can you buy them? Never heard of them. Man that's awesome! Check out that engine, wow! What cool styling! Awesome paint and detailing. Where did you buy it? Every where I go and stop it's like a magnet. Even at bike rallies. That has been my experience, I almost feel like an ambassador and I do talk about it's features, comfort etc. I tell them that its the most satisfying motorcycling experience I've ever had, which for me is very true. I've been riding off and on since I was 10, now 57. I've owned metrics, HD, I did have another Guzzi a Norge, and I really liked it, but it was an awful experience because something was always wrong with it.  But I was willing to try Guzzi again. This California has been great. Just my two cents... Talk about your bike to others. Someday your influence could help make a Guzzi purchase possible.

[Scud]

They did it in the 70s, why not again.

How many modern Californias do you think they would be selling today if they hadn't captured the police market back then?

It would only take one or two police departments to realize the value for money and they could take off again.

A little searching yielded this article about Piaggio trying to get into the police market a few years ago, but nothing current, too bad...

http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2013/11/piaggio-offers-moto-guzzi-police-motorcycles.aspx

[kidsmoke]

BobbyfromNC makes the point, people have to SEE them. I have the same exact experience on my plain ol' 16 year old Jackal.
Getting eyeballs of actual buyers is certainly a challenge, and in America, the masses still view bikes as weekend indulgences as opposed to means of transportation.

Have Jason Bourne flee the CIA in the streets of Aleppo astride one of these, and I guarantee you'll get some showroom traffic.



Another issue that my operation manager mind leaps to....what's the capacity of the (nearly) century old plant on the shores of Lake Como? I've never been, but I've done some google earth stalking, and it appears a pretty landlocked facility, and it's no where near a port, so the cost and logistics of plant modification/transition must be staggering, and the impact of a significant spike in demand would be a challenge, and the cost of shipping bikes from the mountains of Italy to ...Miami? New York? has got be considerable, although that pipeline is certainly well established.

It just seems to me that Piaggio probably wrestles with maintaining a balance of keeping an old plant profitable and efficient, and that may play into the VERY metered output of product, and development is invested in relative to it. It's a challenge to be sure.

[Rod]

A little searching yielded this article about Piaggio trying to get into the police market a few years ago, but nothing current, too bad...

http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2013/11/piaggio-offers-moto-guzzi-police-motorcycles.aspx

Somehow that Cal just doesn't look like a police bike to me. The style is too...stylized? It doesn't have that classic utilitarian look of the 70's bikes or current Harleys.

[Caffeineo]

This article says new buyers want more sport bikes and not so much cruisers/tourers??????

"The big problems facing Harley-Davidson (NYSE:HOG) are fairly well known. It hasn't been able to sell as many of its motorcycles these days, because economic uncertainty makes buying one of its pricey bikes less necessary, just as changing industry demographics have those buyers who are still in the market looking for more sportier models and less for touring and cruiser models. Add those factors together and Harley is staring at eight straight quarters of lower sales"

http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/11/28/are-harley-davidsons-financials-about-to-get-worse.aspx?source=yahoo-2&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=yahoo-2&yptr=yahoo

So if new buyers want sportier bikes why would MG/HD discontinue or not develop them? Could iot be the sport bikes they make do not generate enough sales to continue production while the cruisers/touring bikes do?

[Shorty]

HD and Guzzi have some things in common. Customers are not one of them.   HD customer:  "I paid $25K for the bike, another $1500 to make it sound GOOD!!"  Guzzi customer: " Yep, I waited them out. Got a brand new 5 year old bike for 1/2 price! Welded up a new bracket for the Swannee!" 

[Bulldog9]

An interesting thread....

I'm 52, been riding since I was 9. Started on a minibike, then a long list of UJM's and a Norton. In 1986 I bought my dream motorcycle a 1979 Yamaha XS1100 which I rode until 1996/97 when I bought a Concours and after that bounced around for a bit and ended on an FJR. I've owned a ton changed some like underwear, and kept a few. Through it all, I was the typical MC junkie, always looking for the new ride, eyeing every motorcycle in a parking lot, on the road, etc. Visiting dealers, reading the rags, going to the shows, IBA rides and rallies etc. But NEVER can I remember seeing a Guzzi on the road, used in a dealer or shop, know someone who rode one, or have an opportunity to ride one. All I knew was what I read in reviews in the motorcycle rags..... When buying new, I considered the Norge and V11 Sport, but they lacked in power, so I bought the FJR and FZ1. Had there been a Guzzi dealer near me, or I knew someone to ask about, or test ride, things may have been different.  Granted I havent looked much in the last 15 years (dumb wars), and really not at all since I bought my FJR in 08.

When I wanted to add a newer sport standard this spring, I rode about 15 bikes, did a CL $4000-$5000 search saw a Griso 1100. It was unique enough to get me to look at it, and all I could say was WOW........ It was my first time in a Guzzi dealer, first time riding a Guzzi, and all I could say way "How have I missed this"  I Traded the FJR and re-energized/revolutionized my passion for riding. Put 3K miles in 2-3 months and added a Norge in July. Neither are as capable or fast as the FJR or FZ1, but they have CHARACTER and something to connect to.  I'm really NOT a Guzzi guy, am more a GRiSO guy and the Norge is really growing on me. Not sure I will ever go for a Vintage Guzzi, or Cali, but who knows. The Norge was bought at a steal ($7k for a 2014) and had a few issues that have all been worked out but one, feels slow as a dog sometimes compared to the FJR, but I really like it............. My wife on her first ride said "why did you buy this? its really slow"  lol

Other than a local Guzzi meet, I've yet to meet more than one or two riders who have heard of Guzzi, fewer who have seen a Guzzi, none that have ridden a Guzzi, and at least 50% of the riders and 100% of the non riders have ever heard of it. Most impressions are "wow that must be expensive" and they equate with Ducatti, or Aprilia. Most people say "a what?" 

Marketing Marketing Marketing....... There are so few Guzzis on the street, that even if someone sees one and it impresses, there is little to hook the buyer to go find a dealer.  People worry about parts, service, etc.

To answer the OP and title, I'd say Guzzi could only hope to be in the same boat as Harley............ In the USA, when you say motorcycle, people think Harley.  No one other than a Guzzi Rider thinks Moto Guzzi.............. But do we want Guzzi to become Honda?  I dont. I definitely want it to stay alive, and would love to see something other than hipster styled cruisers and big cruisers, but I think that is unlikely. Seems to me that Aprilia has the Sport, Sport Standard, Dual Sport market of Piaggio, and Guzzi has the 'classic cruiser.'  I would love to see a successor to the CARC series, V11, Lemans, Jackal, etc. but I think it is unlikely.... 

[DanD]

HD had Buell which was profitable but the dealer network was set up within HDs own existing dealer network.

Most HD/Buell dealers catered to the HD crowd and treated Buells as red headed step-children.

Had HD kept Buell and let Buell stand alone as brand, i.e., not connected to an HD dealer, Buell would have continued to cover the bases that HD can't.

Buells should have been a brand in Euro shops as they compare more favorably to Euro 'sports' and 'adv' bikes than they did to Japanese bikes or HDs.

For that mattter HD has a history of sporting bikes and scramblers/desert sleds but refuses to acknowledge that history.

I think HDs forays into sporting Sportsters has been less than outstanding. Witness the XLCR (sat in show rooms for years), same with the XR 1000 and XR 1200.

Buell was the answer but improperly marketed to folks who wanted cruisers. I know when I had my S3T a lot of sport bike guys liked it. But then they came back with "I'd own one but I don't want to deal with  those 'bikers' at the Harley shops..."

Two different biking cultures that just clashed. I know my experiences with local HD dealers was fine when I was buying parts for the Sportster or FXDSC but getting Buell parts was another story. They (the dealers) just weren't excited or even mildly interested in the Buell product line.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

[Dukedesmo]

It's not just the V-twin configuration. Ducati seems to be doing just fine with V-twin sport bike sales - but they also go racing.

Ducati really have the V-twin sportsbike market to themselves, even the big Japanese manufacturers aren't there - Honda & Suzuki tried with only limited success, despite Honda winning WSBK titles.

It would be very difficult to compete with Ducati in that arena, for a start you'd need a 170kg bike with 200hp...

[Kev m]

I'm 52, been riding since I was 9.

<snip>

All I knew was what I read in reviews in the motorcycle rags..... When buying new, I considered the Norge and V11 Sport, but they lacked in power, so I bought the FJR and FZ1. Had there been a Guzzi dealer near me, or I knew someone to ask about, or test ride, things may have been different.  Granted I havent looked much in the last 15 years (dumb wars), and really not at all since I bought my FJR in 08.

When I wanted to add a newer sport standard this spring, I rode about 15 bikes, did a CL $4000-$5000 search saw a Griso 1100. <snip> and all I could say was WOW........ It was my first time in a Guzzi dealer, first time riding a Guzzi, and all I could say way "How have I missed this"  I Traded the FJR and re-energized/revolutionized my passion for riding. Put 3K miles in 2-3 months and added a Norge in July. Neither are as capable or fast as the FJR or FZ1, but they have CHARACTER and something to connect to. 

My take on this was that you were, like a lot of riders here and on various metric brands, concerned about spec sheets and performance (maybe even value in price vs. those things and perceived ease of ownership) over FEEL.

Lots of people boil that down (too much so) to simply FUNCTION over FORM.

But I think it's deeper than that. As I have always said performance has other metrics than 1/4 miles and lap times, performance means HOW WELL IT DOES THE JOB - and the primary job of my motorcycles has always been to PUT A SMILE ON MY FACE.

I want my bikes to put a smile on my face just thinking about them or looking at them.

I want them to put a smile on my face every time I start them.

I want them to put a smile on my face every time I ride them.

Sure there should be some measure of power and handling etc., but I also want comfort, convenience, efficiency, and damn near anything else that I WANT...

Now if one re-reads the quote above with my emphasis, but changed the manufacturer and model references to Harley and (fill in the blank of a Harley model), one would understand what the brand offers many which so often seems to escape those who claim they value FUNCTION over FORM.

And I'm NOT judging someone's preferences here, except to say that I like balance of the two which puts a lot less emphasis on power/lap times.

[Kev m]

HD had Buell which was profitable but the dealer network was set up within HDs own existing dealer network.

Most HD/Buell dealers catered to the HD crowd and treated Buells as red headed step-children.

Had HD kept Buell and let Buell stand alone as brand, i.e., not connected to an HD dealer, Buell would have continued to cover the bases that HD can't.

Buells should have been a brand in Euro shops as they compare more favorably to Euro 'sports' and 'adv' bikes than they did to Japanese bikes or HDs.

For that mattter HD has a history of sporting bikes and scramblers/desert sleds but refuses to acknowledge that history.

I think HDs forays into sporting Sportsters has been less than outstanding. Witness the XLCR (sat in show rooms for years), same with the XR 1000 and XR 1200.

Buell was the answer but improperly marketed to folks who wanted cruisers. I know when I had my S3T a lot of sport bike guys liked it. But then they came back with "I'd own one but I don't want to deal with  those 'bikers' at the Harley shops..."

Two different biking cultures that just clashed. I know my experiences with local HD dealers was fine when I was buying parts for the Sportster or FXDSC but getting Buell parts was another story. They (the dealers) just weren't excited or even mildly interested in the Buell product line.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

I agree with almost everything you said... except that I don't think the XR1200 sat NEARLY as much as the XLCR or XR1000.

Sure they "sat" by recent Harley standards which still meant that there are generally few leftovers by the next model year, but I don't think I saw one on a Harley sales floor more than 6-months, maybe maybe maybe a year after they stopped building them for domestic sale.

And what does this mean?

I personally believe that Harley has gotten BETTER at pursuing such things (Dyna Lowrider and Lowrider S, the new CX Roadster) BUT I believe that Harley has been in a long (multi-decades) battle with themselves and their customers when it comes to pursuing such things. And while business was booming and sales were growing from 100k to 350k (through the 90's and 00's) and even in the aftermath of the crash as sales have dropped to 200-250k units, it's easy for them to look at a bike that sells only thousands or 10's of thousands of units as a "failure" and move on. That's the story of the recent XL883R, XL1200R, XR1200, the XR1200X, and probably the story of the Vrods (especially the mid-mount control models), and FXDX (Dyna Sport with adjustable forks and dual-discs)...

BUT as the decline in sales has occurred, and as smaller/less expensive bikes become more and more important to them, I'm hoping their accountants and their customers attack this problem from both sides allowing/prompting (respectively) continued forays into bikes that offer a little bit more (in terms of lean angle, brakes, suspension etc.).

Time will tell, but as long as they're making bank on the $18-25k touring bikes, there's not a lot of motivation for them to try hard on the $10-12k Sportsters.

[DanD]

I've owned the Dyna Conv, great bike. And the 883R, another great bike. The XLCR  sucked as a bike but made a great nutcracker...

I agree HD has tried. Especially with the mid mount V  Rod. But the point of my post was these bikes don't sell (at least in the numbers HD wants to see) to the HD faithful. Buell was HDs ticket to markets other than cruisers and they flushed it.

Think about it. Had HD not given MV back to the Italians they could have set up a dealer network of just Buell/MV and allowed those dealer to carry other Euroo brands if they chose to.

That, in my mind at least, would've kept the other bike markets open to HD.

[Arizona Wayne]

HD has put themselves in a box.........."buying a Harley is a lifestyle."   They have been very successful making tons of $ for decades with this mindset, but in doing so it has cost them being able to have bikes like Buells, etc. that don't fit the current lifestyle image.

Look at Victory and Indian having their own dealers even though they're made by the same company.

[Dofin]

If Guzzi made every V7 run like a Swiss watch (funny that term?  run like a swiss watch means they ALL work all the time every time!! no mods no returns to the shop until its time for service).  Fix the shocks and forks (cheap fix if done when built) so they handle like they should and COULD.  The V7, in my opinion, would be the perfect second motorcycle and a good first bike for some.  Then be able to build a real reputation.

It is a nice looking bike with good manners, simple and capable IF Guzzi fixed its work ethics they would have another "HONDA" type bike.

Instead of fixing what they have they make a bunch OF new engines to have problems with and some weird shaped niche motorcycles that will have limited appeal.  My thoughts. 

Remember,  Keep It Simple Stupid   "KISS"

[Cool Runnings]

I agree with almost everything you said... except that I don't think the XR1200 sat NEARLY as much as the XLCR or XR1000.

Sure they "sat" by recent Harley standards which still meant that there are generally few leftovers by the next model year, but I don't think I saw one on a Harley sales floor more than 6-months, maybe maybe maybe a year after they stopped building them for domestic sale.

And what does this mean?

I personally believe that Harley has gotten BETTER at pursuing such things (Dyna Lowrider and Lowrider S, the new CX Roadster) BUT I believe that Harley has been in a long (multi-decades) battle with themselves and their customers when it comes to pursuing such things. And while business was booming and sales were growing from 100k to 350k (through the 90's and 00's) and even in the aftermath of the crash as sales have dropped to 200-250k units, it's easy for them to look at a bike that sells only thousands or 10's of thousands of units as a "failure" and move on. That's the story of the recent XL883R, XL1200R, XR1200, the XR1200X, and probably the story of the Vrods (especially the mid-mount control models), and FXDX (Dyna Sport with adjustable forks and dual-discs)...

BUT as the decline in sales has occurred, and as smaller/less expensive bikes become more and more important to them, I'm hoping their accountants and their customers attack this problem from both sides allowing/prompting (respectively) continued forays into bikes that offer a little bit more (in terms of lean angle, brakes, suspension etc.).

Time will tell, but as long as they're making bank on the $18-25k touring bikes, there's not a lot of motivation for them to try hard on the $10-12k Sportsters.

So why didn't Hardly create a V-Rod ST bike? 

[Arizona Wayne]

If Guzzi made every V7 run like a Swiss watch (funny that term?  run like a swiss watch means they ALL work all the time every time!! no mods no returns to the shop until its time for service).  Fix the shocks and forks (cheap fix if done when built) so they handle like they should and COULD.  The V7, in my opinion, would be the perfect second motorcycle and a good first bike for some.  Then be able to build a real reputation.

It is a nice looking bike with good manners, simple and capable IF Guzzi fixed its work ethics they would have another "HONDA" type bike.

Instead of fixing what they have they make a bunch OF new engines to have problems with and some weird shaped niche motorcycles that will have limited appeal.  My thoughts. 

Remember,  Keep It Simple Stupid   "KISS"

When I 1st rode my `04 750 Breva I thought it felt like a Swiss watch compared to my `00 MZ 660 Tour.   Not that the Tour was bad, but the Breva just felt so precision.       The V7II? I test rode last July @ the MGNOC National didn't feel near as precision as my Breva. 

[Kev m]

I've owned the Dyna Conv, great bike. And the 883R, another great bike. The XLCR  sucked as a bike but made a great nutcracker...

I agree HD has tried. Especially with the mid mount V  Rod. But the point of my post was these bikes don't sell (at least in the numbers HD wants to see) to the HD faithful. Buell was HDs ticket to markets other than cruisers and they flushed it.

Think about it. Had HD not given MV back to the Italians they could have set up a dealer network of just Buell/MV and allowed those dealer to carry other Euroo brands if they chose to.

That, in my mind at least, would've kept the other bike markets open to HD.

Yeah, I'm pretty much agreeing with you, though I'm making some additional points.

Yeah, they may not have sold in enough volume for HD, compared to other models when they were selling 250-350k bikes, but that's because we're talking such high volumes. I bet they will look upon them more favorably if sales continue to drop.

Or stated another way, Guzzi WISHES they could sell as many bikes as those "failed" models in a given year.

[Kev m]

So why didn't Hardly create a V-Rod ST bike? 

So many possible reasons - short-sightedness, lack of perceived volume (again, their volume is a lot different than Guzzi being happy with Norge sales), too big/long/heavy, lots of possibilities.

Mostly though because they were concentrating on making their $18-25k/year touring motorcycles their biggest sellers, and with volumes above 100k units/year of those models alone, you can kinda understand that logic.

[Dofin]

Wayne, maybe I should have said small Block instead of naming a specific MODEL.  Did Every Breva stay on the road for 30K with no mechanical problems?  Simple engine, simple bike with good looks, rather than touting specific models how about asking WHY did the 04 750 Breva run smooth and WHY did Guzzi not continue to perfect the overall ride ability and reliability???   remember  ""KISS""

[Arizona Wayne]

Wayne, maybe I should have said small Block instead of naming a specific MODEL.  Did Every Breva stay on the road for 30K with no mechanical problems?  Simple engine, simple bike with good looks, rather than touting specific models how about asking WHY did the 04 750 Breva run smooth and WHY did Guzzi not continue to perfect the overall ride ability and reliability???   remember  ""KISS""

Far as I know the 750 Breva series has had very few issues like most new Guzzi models seem to have.  This model has dual EFI and the 1st MG closed loop system.   It's 5 spd tranny is smooth from the git go unlike the notchy 6 spd tranny in the newer V7 version I rode.   I believe both versions are rated @ 48 hp.

My Breva was bulletproof until I got clutch issues @ 48K miles.   Have yet remedied that to know what happened.   At this point I believe I lost at least 1 spring.

[Dofin]

Sounds like Guzzi messed up when they made changes to a proven engine/bike design like the Breva.  But I guess that is what some call PROGRESS???

[Kev m]

Sounds like Guzzi messed up when they made changes to a proven engine/bike design like the Breva.  But I guess that is what some call PROGRESS???

I'm only half way to 30k but my V7 has been the essentially trouble free*.




* I say essentially because I had to adjust the clutch cable in Ferracci's parking lot when it was delivered. And I had to wire tie it off the cylinder later to keep it from melting. And it does this funny stall after a cold start, but it's fine all day once it warms up the first time. And the voltage regulator was allowing it to charge at nearly 15.5 volts so I replaced that even though there were no symptoms in 3+ years. And I prophylactically replaced the half plastic fuel filter Even though I'm pretty sure it would have been fine indefinitely...

So have I just been indoctrinated, or is that "trouble free"?

And to put it in perspective that's MUCH LESS TROUBLE than my Breva 1100 in similar miles, and ridiculously less trouble than my Jackal in more than double the miles... As such it's my most reliable Guzzi eva' which puts it a hair ahead of my BMWs and a hair behind 4 out of 5 Harleys, whatever that means.

[Arizona Wayne]

I bought a leftover Suzuki `91 VX800 new and bought an extended warranty just in case for the hell of it.   Still have @ 84K miles and the only thing that's ever gone out on it is somewhere years ago just out of warranty (1 year) something broke in the rear shaft drive, 100 miles from hope, but I was able to ride it home 2up and that was covered by my extended warranty w/a $25 co-payment. But since the insurance co. found a rearend off a low mileage salvage bike and I agreed to let them change that out, I didn't have to pay the $25.  So that's the only issue I've had with the bike in all those miles and years of useage.   My VX is the most reliable bike I've ever owned so far in my lifetime. 

[trippah]

I suspect that a previous comment was right on, that sales of motorcycles shadows the economy and most young people cannot afford a bike.  Stuck with enormous college loans and low paying entry level jobs, chasing a girls and outrageous rents eats up the "spare" money.  As greater percentages of wealth concentrates in fewer households,  fewer toys will be purchased and as noted earlier, expensive to buy and run telephones and tablets are more in sync with their perceived needs.  The crappy weather doesn't help either.

[Kev m]

I suspect that a previous comment was right on, that sales of motorcycles shadows the economy and most young people cannot afford a bike.  Stuck with enormous college loans and low paying entry level jobs, chasing a girls and outrageous rents eats up the "spare" money.  As greater percentages of wealth concentrates in fewer households,  fewer toys will be purchased and as noted earlier, expensive to buy and run telephones and tablets are more in sync with their perceived needs.  The crappy weather doesn't help either.

The only way I could afford my first decent (new) bike was a loan coupled with selling my cheap used car and going without a car for a few years. This was in my early 20's at the start of my career.