Arco,Shell, Exxon different?

[azguzzirep]

Yeah, a gasoline thread.

Someone can end it quickly if there is a link to a previous discussion .

However, I remember a friend who wouldn't put  Arco gasoline into his new H-D bagger. "I only run brand Xxx in my bike"  he says.

So. Besides ethanol gasoline isn't it all the same quality?

[screamday]

I have no scientific evidence, but my vehicles all seem to run better and get better gas mileage when I use Shell gas. I alternate between Shell and Speedway.......don't know who supplies Speedway, those are just the two most prominent stations on my daily routes.

[rocker59]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

[Nic in Western NYS]

Top Tier designation for sure.  If available, Chevron because of the Techron additive.

[Kev m]

All gasoline meets minimum standards. I suspect that's enough for most circumstances and feel a lot of people who claim x runs better on this octane or brand are fooling themselves. That said I'm sure there are exceptions, but it might be more a case of a station where higher octane sirs longer or whose supplier uses more ethanol/oxygenates more than the additive package. I mean hour much of the additive package is detergent and not directly related to combustion properties.

Also, it may vary regionally, but many different gas stations around here are all filled by the products from the same refinery.

Years ago my ex's Dad was a fuel engineer for Sunoco who told us to never waste money on the 89 Octane (they sold 87 Octane as the base fuel around here), because it wasn't worth their effort to have different base stock or additives and the 87 was literally the 89.

[screamday]

Just did a little research and found out that Speedway is a subsidiary of Marathon Petroleum Corporation.

[Gliderjohn]

I think only the additives may vary some by brand. When I was working I frequently drove by a large refinery going into work and gas trucks of all brands were lined up each morning.
GliderJohn

[drlapo]

Mobil is best according to an article in Cycle magazine around 40 years ago

[cookiemech]

OK, not sure why I'm replying to a gasoline thread, because it's a lot like religion . . .

That being said, I always run Top Tier gas in everything here (cars and motorcycles). The ONLY objective evidence that I have indicating a difference is what I see on my Harleys. When I first had my 2007 Road King, I bought gas wherever I happened to be at the time I needed it, paying no attention to brand. And sometimes its idle was crappy and sometimes good. When I would perform each service (at 5K mile intervals), the inside of the throttle body was filthy black.

As I became aware of Top Tier gas (probably the bike had 25K miles or so), I started using it exclusively. Idle quality improved dramatically, and the inside of the throttle body was now nearly clean when I did each service. That part clearly is not imagination. Bike now has 48K.

I do not notice any difference in performance, idle quality, gas mileage or anything else in the other bikes or the cars.

[normzone]

Southern California report here - my car and bike are happy with Shell but readily ping on Arco. No clue about Exxon ...

[TBShorty]

I never put ARCO in anything I own.  I had a 55 F100 with a hot small block that just refused to run on the stuff.  Even my new cars felt down on power if I gassed up at ARCO.  I don't think they maintain there equipment as well as other stations either.  I found water in the gas that I filled my lawn mower with.  Besides they're owned by British Petroleum, arseholes.

[Kev m]

When I first had my 2007 Road King, I bought gas wherever I happened to be at the time I needed it, paying no attention to brand. And sometimes its idle was crappy and sometimes good. When I would perform each service (at 5K mile intervals), the inside of the throttle body was filthy black.

As I became aware of Top Tier gas (probably the bike had 25K miles or so), I started using it exclusively. Idle quality improved dramatically, and the inside of the throttle body was now nearly clean when I did each service. That part clearly is not imagination. Bike now has 48K.

I wonder how the quality of fuel that never gets sprayed in a throttle body keeps it clean? Especially when the primary reason for Harley throttle bodies to gum up are the head breathers vented to the body.

Your 07 didn't have an EVAP system did it?

I had one of the first EFI Harleys back in 96 (EVO RK with Weber-Marelli EFI) and I had to manually clean the throttle body every 10k or so no matter what fuel I used.

[Dilliw]

I believe that high volume gas stations are more important than the brand of the fuel they sell.  Locally I buy my gas at Sam's because I see the truck there most everyday. Fresh is best.

The Griso gets ethanol free however thanks to the pimples and the bump on the plastic tank.  We have it in 89 octane from Marathon and BP nearby.

[Haze]

I have a 1967 Alfa Romeo. I bring this up because it knocks on anything other than Exxon, Shell, BP. Even Sunoco causes it problems. It was designed for lead and higher octane ratings than anything we have today, so this is what I do. If I want to know if a gas is any good. I take the Alfa down and filler her up, always with Super. This is what I have discovered doing this. Some gas is better than others. The three I listed above work well in the car, but what is more interesting are the lower name brands like Liberty and stuff like that. The car can't run on them without significant overheating, and I think it is this. Ethanol gas has a short shelf life from manufacture to use. I believe that the lower brands are created to help dispose of gas that is reaching its expiration date and started absorbing a fair amount of water and otherwise breaking down.

[Tom H]

I've been using Mobil for a few years in my bikes. Lately they have been slightly pinging, not bad, just know it's there mainly on the freeway. Thought it was one of the bikes needed a tune up until I noticed it was all three.

Trying different gas for a bit to see if it makes a difference. Might just be the winter mix for SoCa?? Was ok for the summer.

Tom

[sib]

Well (snapping suspenders), I feel better and I think my V7II runs better when I use the cheapest gas I can find.  Often that's Speedway but it can also be gas from a seedy station with rusty, noisy pumps, managed by shifty-eyed English-challenged third worlders.  No offense intended.

[bad Chad]

I run both top and non top gas in our cars and have never noticed a difference. I generally only run top in my Gussie but never noticed any variation in brand.   I do however add Sea Foam to all every few months to a tank full.

[cookiemech]

I wonder how the quality of fuel that never gets sprayed in a throttle body keeps it clean? Especially when the primary reason for Harley throttle bodies to gum up are the head breathers vented to the body.

Your 07 didn't have an EVAP system did it?

I had one of the first EFI Harleys back in 96 (EVO RK with Weber-Marelli EFI) and I had to manually clean the throttle body every 10k or so no matter what fuel I used.

No EVAP on mine (Pennsylvania). Now I have no idea why the TB used to be filthy on both sides of the butterfly, but no longer is . . . always have used the stock HD air filter and washed it at 5K intervals, and the bike is 100% stock mechanically.

[rboe]

Old old data point but back in the early 90's I bought a Suzuki Samurai and it got crappy mileage. Being cheap I'd use what ever gas but for shits and giggles I started to burn Texaco gas. I'd run a tank or two of that and my mileage increased. After a while every third tank I'd put in Texaco gas, the other tanks being whatever was cheap. Arco gas at the time had a very bad rep here in Phoenix so I avoided it for the most part.

Once I upgraded my car to the minivan I stuck with Chevron, Shell or Texaco. Same for the bike (although I'll do Circle K from time to time because they are close). On road trips it's Chevron or Shell, sometimes Mobil. Mileage remains pretty constant now. No more cheap gas unless it's the only station in town.

[Kev m]

I'm not going to pretend I have the answers. But I have some ideas and maybe those smarter than me about fuels can chime in and help clarify.

I have a 1967 Alfa Romeo. I bring this up because it knocks on anything other than Exxon, Shell, BP. Even Sunoco causes it problems. It was designed for lead and higher octane ratings than anything we have today, so this is what I do. If I want to know if a gas is any good. I take the Alfa down and filler her up, always with Super. This is what I have discovered doing this. Some gas is better than others. The three I listed above work well in the car, but what is more interesting are the lower name brands like Liberty and stuff like that. The car can't run on them without significant overheating, and I think it is this. Ethanol gas has a short shelf life from manufacture to use. I believe that the lower brands are created to help dispose of gas that is reaching its expiration date and started absorbing a fair amount of water and otherwise breaking down.

So we know this about fuels, octane equals stability or a resistance to burning.

So If your Alfa knocks on the others, there's something about the one (could be as simple as actual octane or some other factor that is effecting stability) that helps it run right for the Alfa.

But of course, that doesn't mean the same fuel is "better" for anything else right?

Now the overheating part is funny. It can't be water. Water doesn't help combustion, so it's not going to create additional heat in the combustion chamber right. But ironically Ethanol is an oxygenate. It makes the air/fuel ratio less rich/more lean, and more lean = hotter. So could it simply be a higher content of Ethanol (don't most pumps say language like MAY CONTAIN UP TO 10% Ethanol or the like)? Ethanol should be cheaper, since it's got less bang for the buck, so a higher percentage might mean cheaper right? Just thinking out loud.

Again though, none of this might mean anything to a motor that runs just fine on it, except maybe lower efficiency/fewer mpg.

No EVAP on mine (Pennsylvania). Now I have no idea why the TB used to be filthy on both sides of the butterfly, but no longer is . . . always have used the stock HD air filter and washed it at 5K intervals, and the bike is 100% stock mechanically.

I was in PA too, till 2 years ago, so ok. Sure would like to hear a reasonable explanation of that one. Though just the fact that you can wash the OEM element and don't replace it from oil fouling means your breathers really aren't carrying too much oil mist into that throttle body anymore. Why that would change with fuel boggles my mind. But I'd sure like to know how to have that happen on mine lol.

[Muzz]

I wonder how the quality of fuel that never gets sprayed in a throttle body keeps it clean? Especially when the primary reason for Harley throttle bodies to gum up are the head breathers vented to the body.

Kev, my theory is that although the fuel might not get sprayed in there, because of the valve overlap a small amount of fuel and engine afterburn will get blown back up the induction tract. This gives rise to the black deposits that some are reporting.

As far as gas goes, we have had the Techron out here for years. I can't say I notice any difference between the Shell, Caltex or BP we have out here.

[Kev m]

Kev, my theory is that although the fuel might not get sprayed in there, because of the valve overlap a small amount of fuel and engine afterburn will get blown back up the induction tract. This gives rise to the black deposits that some are reporting.

Like Direct Injection motors fouling the intake valves. Maybe.

I remain skeptical just because of the amount of oil mist that is usually carried by the breathers (which would coat anything there anyway). But maybe the TC motors are better with that than EVOs. <shrugs>

[Triple Jim]

From Wikipedia:  "Techron is available at Chevron, Texaco, and Caltex stations in all three grades of gasoline."

[Arizona Wayne]

Arco gas has used ethanol for decades before  other brands were required to use it for Fed. Govt. regulations.  Sam's Club gas is bought only from major brands that give them the best price at the time-Mobil, Chevron, etc.

I like Unocal and use Circle K, 7-ll, or just about any other gas that has the best price.   Some say the independent gas stations get leftover gas and yes, fresh gas has a certain shelf life, so if the gas you buy is stale your vehicle might ping, but closed loop EFI automatically adjusts the timing for such situations too.  In general for sure major brands have better/fresher gas most the time, but some high volume gas/stores get major brands too, I believe.   Nowadays I really can't tell the difference mixing according to what brand/price I can find when needed.  With ethanol gas you lose a couple mpg vs. real gas. 

[azguzzirep]

Well, this is fun!

In Germany we have  Shell, Esso, Aral and BP, plus a few other minor players. When I refuel, I always get 95 octane and don't worry about it. My bike runs fine all the time.

Shell does sell a 'racing ' fuel that is 100 octane but it is expensive! I've only put it in a couple times. I don't think they sell gasoline additives here. I haven't seen them at auto parts stores. Only non freeze additives for winter.

[sdhow]

I can speak for California; fuels sold in California can only be refined at a California refineries and must meet strict CA Air Resources Board (CARB) blending regulations.  That said, Winter blends will all be an E10...soon to be raised to an E15, from my sources.  This means all your fuel racks (where you see all the delivery trucks lined up) have the same fuels.  Heck, 91 is the highest octane we have available for on-road, unless you get a racing 100 octane unleaded, which Phillips (certain 76 stations) and Sunoco (no retail pumps, specialty distribution only) sell for like $7/gal. out here.

Again, the big issue is how the fuel is handled once it reaches the station.  I used to only use Chevron, until my closest Chevron station screwed me over TWICE.  Every time I filled after a storm, my vehicles (bikes and autos) would start hard or sputter when they got down to half a tank.  Come to find out, their fuel tank covers leaked and I had water in my gas!  Dilliw is right, stations that turn their gas over in high volume have the freshest inventory and that is ALWAYS a good thing!  This is why diesel buyers usually prefer to go to the truck stops rather than the local C-Store.

[Aaron D.]

Modern combustion chambers do work wonders. though I've ever had a sensitive engine as far as brands of gasoline are concerned.

Seems most of them just request not-too-much water in them..

Frankly if my motorcycle was fussy about gasoline I would get rid of it and find one willing to ride wherever I wanted to go. In near 50 years I haven't had an issue yet.

[Haze]

I'm not going to pretend I have the answers. But I have some ideas and maybe those smarter than me about fuels can chime in and help clarify.

So we know this about fuels, octane equals stability or a resistance to burning.

So If your Alfa knocks on the others, there's something about the one (could be as simple as actual octane or some other factor that is effecting stability) that helps it run right for the Alfa.

But of course, that doesn't mean the same fuel is "better" for anything else right?

Now the overheating part is funny. It can't be water. Water doesn't help combustion, so it's not going to create additional heat in the combustion chamber right. But ironically Ethanol is an oxygenate. It makes the air/fuel ratio less rich/more lean, and more lean = hotter. So could it simply be a higher content of Ethanol (don't most pumps say language like MAY CONTAIN UP TO 10% Ethanol or the like)? Ethanol should be cheaper, since it's got less bang for the buck, so a higher percentage might mean cheaper right? Just thinking out loud.

Again though, none of this might mean anything to a motor that runs just fine on it, except maybe lower efficiency/fewer mpg.

I was in PA too, till 2 years ago, so ok. Sure would like to hear a reasonable explanation of that one. Though just the fact that you can wash the OEM element and don't replace it from oil fouling means your breathers really aren't carrying too much oil mist into that throttle body anymore. Why that would change with fuel boggles my mind. But I'd sure like to know how to have that happen on mine lol.

I use the Alfa as my test bed because it is operating on the edge of what modern fuels can deliver. My father's Cadillac CTS with direct injection can run on anything because it is direct injected. All machines will use fuel differently depending on their design. The question here is whether some gas is better than others, and I have to say unequivocally that yes some fuel is more stable delivered at the pump, whether that is because of different formulation or post manufacture delivery whose to say. I do also know this. Ethanol fuel is less stable than older formulations with Lead or MTBE as anti-knock compounds. As it breaks down, absorbs water, it lowers its octane leading to knocking. It is the knocking that causes overheating because what is knocking? It is preignition of the fuel so instead of a bang when the spark plug goes off there is this inefficient burn that translates the chemical energy of the fuel to air mixture not into motive force but heat energy. That is why the engine heats up on bad gas, you get less gas mileage, less power ... all that jazz.

Now what is good to use in your motorcycle? Personally I believe that if the bike is injected, then it is hard to screw up as long as you stick with the octane rating, which means staying away from off brand providers because I really don't believe that those companies are reliably providing the octane that is on the sticker by the pump handle. I have no data to support that. It is just my personal opinion.

[Kev m]

I use the Alfa as my test bed because it is operating on the edge of what modern fuels can deliver. My father's Cadillac CTS with direct injection can run on anything because it is direct injected. All machines will use fuel differently depending on their design. The question here is whether some gas is better than others, and I have to say unequivocally that yes some fuel is more stable delivered at the pump, whether that is because of different formulation or post manufacture delivery whose to say. I do also know this. Ethanol fuel is less stable than older formulations with Lead or MTBE as anti-knock compounds. As it breaks down, absorbs water, it lowers its octane leading to knocking. It is the knocking that causes overheating because what is knocking? It is preignition of the fuel so instead of a bang when the spark plug goes off there is this inefficient burn that translates the chemical energy of the fuel to air mixture not into motive force but heat energy. That is why the engine heats up on bad gas, you get less gas mileage, less power ... all that jazz.

Now what is good to use in your motorcycle? Personally I believe that if the bike is injected, then it is hard to screw up as long as you stick with the octane rating, which means staying away from off brand providers because I really don't believe that those companies are reliably providing the octane that is on the sticker by the pump handle. I have no data to support that. It is just my personal opinion.

I guess I still take issue with "better".

Better for what? More stability is only better if it's needed.

Too high an octane means increased deposits and emissions.

Granted that tends to be "better" then knocking for sure, but still.

Better for one doesn't necessarily translate into better for the next.

The Alfa may just be a needy beeoch.

All that said, I'm not sure I'm buying your ethanol logic regarding water absorption and lowering octane. I mean first off isn't ethanol used to boost octane? And if it absorbs water doesn't that make it HARDER to ignite (not easier) which if true would effectively raise stability not lower it.

<shrugs>

Edit - PS I've wondered what we get at the pumps too. And it may vary by state, but last time I researched it I found articles that suggest NJ is very good about their bureau of weights and measures taking samples to confirm proper metering, octane, and lack of contaminants. I wonder what it's like where you live.

[Rough Edge racing]

Too high an octane means increased deposits and emissions.

 Interesting claim...you have proof ?