Getting rid of tubes

[Ncdan]

Hi guys

Before by Calvin need tires I'm bound and determined to put the new tire back on tubeless. Has anyone ever heard of anyone getting an expert tigg welder to close up the bottom of each spoke hole from the inside. Theoretically it is possible and I have the guy and he has the equipment. If the odds are better than not the wheel would be ruined I would go to a plan B. Thanks in advance for responses as I have learned there are massive amounts of combined knowledge  with the Guzzie Brothers here which I am a proud member of.

[oldbike54]

 Dan , I do think that welding up the spoke nipples will cause more problems than it will solve .

 Dusty

[Perazzimx14]

No matter how you keep the spokes from leaking (welding them closed is a terrible idea) you will never have a tubeless wheel. The area where the bead of the tire seats is different tubeless verses tubed. I'm not saying you cannot make tube type wheels hold air tight so you can run a tubeless tire as many do with success. The question is, is it a good idea? Only you can determine that.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I think it's a good idea, I have my California II and my 72 Eldorado tubeless. I found if you get a leak it goes down slowly not sudden like a tube puncture.


Sent from my shoe phone!

[Ncdan]

I think it's a good idea, I have my California II and my 72 Eldorado tubeless. I found if you get a leak it goes down slowly not sudden like a tube puncture.


Sent from my shoe phone!

you didn't say how you accomplished getting the wheel tubeless. Did you have them welded or by some other means of sealing the spoke holes in the inside?

[fotoguzzi]

there is a 3M tape that works..

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/457634-gt1000-3m-tape-tubeless-conversion.html

google tubeless conversion for more than you want to know..

[wavedog]

Recently did a tube less conversion on the rear wheel of my 01 Jackal. After much research I followed Bigbikerrick's advice and am happy with the results. Got about 500 miles on the rear and its great. Getting ready to do the front.

[Guzzidad]

    I ran my 04 Triumph Tiger rims tubeless. I just used Permatex high temp silicone, the dark red stuff. No problems in over 50,000 miles. On the other hand, you will have to change your own tires from then on. No shop will accept liability. Finally sold the bike with 111,000 miles.

[Huzo]

That 3M tape looks like a good way to go. Just wondering though, does turning the nipples to adjust the spoke tension, adversely effect the seal ? Or can the nipple turn under the tape with no dramas? And do you cover the valve with the tape on the inside, how will you then inflate the tyre? I could understand that covering the valve then poking a SMALL hole over the air inlet will allow for inflation, but would that not then allow high pressure air to leak in under the tape, and start to creep around the nipples to escape to the low pressure air outside? (you don't want anything creeping around your nipples!) I am going to do something similar with the Norge wheels and thought to re position the valve to the side on the flat part of the rim away from the well.

[Guzzidad]

   Huzo, that might make it hard to get the tire off, and a new one on.

[Huzo]

   Huzo, that might make it hard to get the tire off, and a new one on.

If you put the tyre on with the valve side first. I think if you put the correct side of the tyre on first, you'd have no dramas, but only time will tell. See, as you're passing the bead over the valve, you can wobble the rest of the bead into the well,(I think!). What do you think of what I said about covering the valve with tape?

[Huzo]

you didn't say how you accomplished getting the wheel tubeless. Did you have them welded or by some other means of sealing the spoke holes in the inside?

Of course you can get a set of blind nipples like on a Norge, Bellagio, Griso etc... but you'll have to shorten the spokes.

[Ncdan]

Does the Calvin wheels have the safety rim bead?  That seems to be an important issue for safety reasons. The only other issue I can see is how fast the air may leak out, if it even does leak at all.

[Kiwi_Roy]

you didn't say how you accomplished getting the wheel tubeless. Did you have them welded or by some other means of sealing the spoke holes in the inside?

A $3 tube of Silicone, in the process I learned not all Silicone is created equal, the first variety shown in the slideshow wouldn't stick to the Alloy rims but the one I have now sticks like sh-- to an Army blanket.
At first after wire brushing the rims I used circles of duct tape over each nipple with a layer of Silicone over the top followed by more duct tape, that was a waste of time.
Now I just use silicone, if I ever have to tighten the spokes I will just re-do the whole process, it only takes about half hour per rim.
My local bike shop was a bit dubious but I buy all my tires there so they decided to humor me, since then I just use a couple of tire levers, I didn't realize how easy it is.
http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/Kiwi_Roy/slideshow/72%20Eldo/Sealing%20Wheels?sort=2
I have since switched to GE Silicone I, 100% which comes in a small tube at the hardware store

This small tube is enough to do 2 rims.

The California II of course has cast wheels so they are easy.

You do need tubeless valve stems or tank valves in the case of cast rims.

[ken farr]

No matter how you keep the spokes from leaking (welding them closed is a terrible idea) you will never have a tubeless wheel. The area where the bead of the tire seats is different tubeless verses tubed. I'm not saying you cannot make tube type wheels hold air tight so you can run a tubeless tire as many do with success. The question is, is it a good idea? Only you can determine that.

Please explain this to me.  I have asked before, and never have had it explained any further than " the wheels are different."

So when I had my 02 Stone with spoked wheels I ran tubes inside the tires, and these tires stated tube or tubeless.  So how does my rim know its a tubeless install ?
I imagine way back when, there was a difference, an actual physical difference in the rim, but still ?

Big pictures and crayons generally help when explaining things to me.  Speak s l o w l y .

kjf

[Guzzidad]

   Huzo, you are overthinking a simple solution. Clean your rim really well and use high temp RTV. A nice bead around each spoke nipple. Simple as that. No need to move the schroeder valve. No tape required.

[wirespokes]

Does the Calvin wheels have the safety rim bead?  That seems to be an important issue for safety reasons. The only other issue I can see is how fast the air may leak out, if it even does leak at all.

So how does my rim know its a tubeless install ?

kjf

There are some pretty complex changes that happened along the way, but the answer is actually pretty simple.

A non-tubeless rim doesn't have a safety bead. Tubeless rims do.

A safety bead runs around the rim parallel to the lip of the rim where the bead sits. The bead of the tire fits between the lip of the rim and the safety bead. Follow me?

The safety bead will make it harder for the tire to fly off the rim in the case of a sudden deflation. It also makes it tougher to install the tire in the first place.

Now here's the big question -

Are we running a safety risk installing a tubeless tire on a rim without a safety bead?

Consider this:

What is the difference between a sudden deflation of a tubed vs a tubeless on a non-safety bead rim?

NONE!

The benefits of running tubeless far outweigh any problems.

The ONLY situation where a tube can be beneficial is in the case of a severely bent rim where it's possible the tube will still hold air and keep the tire on, but a tubeless would have instantly gone flat.


Something like that CAN happen, but what are the chances of that? I know, it has happened, and that's one of the reasons I don't like riding at night.

I'm sure this topic has been hashed out a bazillion times, but it took me a while to sort out the importances. So there you have my two cents worth.

[Lannis]

Does the Calvin wheels have the safety rim bead?  That seems to be an important issue for safety reasons.

It would seem so, but (just like with using car tires on bike rims), that's overridden by enough people saying loudly enough "I've been doing it for years and I've never had a problem, so what are you worried about?"

Then I thought I might try asking the people for whom the tubeless-tire/tubed-rim DID fail ... but I can't find any.   

Then I thought to myself .... hmmm .... there's two and only two reasons that I might not hear from them ....


Lannis

[Kiwi_Roy]

Actually Lannis I have a VII Sport, I believe they are "proper" tubeless rims, the rear went down suddenly when I was traveling about as fast as it would go, quite scarey
The only thing I could put it down to was lack of a valve cap.

Is it safer to have a tube suddenly rupture or have a tubeless go flat slowly?

[fotoguzzi]

see it here,

https://www.google.com/search?q=safety+bead+tubeless+rims&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOrqObq4TRAhVKOSYKHW4IDjgQ_AUICSgC&biw=1306&bih=668#imgrc=_

[fotoguzzi]

Actually Lannis I have a VII Sport, I believe they are "proper" tubeless rims, the rear went down suddenly when I was traveling about as fast as it would go, quite scarey
The only thing I could put it down to was lack of a valve cap.

Is it safer to have a tube suddenly rupture or have a tubeless go flat slowly?

tubeless go flat slower.. had it happen both ways.. you want tubeless if it happens to you.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Is it safer to have a tube suddenly rupture or have a tubeless go flat slowly?

I've had a slow puncture with a tube (actually many)
And a gash in a tubeless tyre, instant deflate

However, both quite safe as tyre never broke bead, this was real problem pre tubeless tyres, now, even" tubed" rims do not break bead easily.
Flat tyre same to me with or without tube, not same as 1960's bikes / tyres, they did scare you

[Jukebox]

"Flat tyre same to me with or without tube, not same as 1960's bikes / tyres, they did scare you"
 :1:

[Sheepdog]

Tubed tires are not all bad. Flat repair on the bike is possible without removing the wheel (for minor punctures), they will hold air with a dented rim, and the tire may be seated with a hand pump. In addition, tubed tires may be repaired with a boot in the event of a sliced tire (as long as the tear is not too long).

Tubeless tires are somewhat easier to mount. They also are a little lighter and run a little cooler. However, spoked wheels have been the answer for two-wheelers for a lot of years. Tubeless is not a panacea...

[redrider]

Absolutely, positively no way I would ever run tubeless on a tube rim without a tube. I have been using tubes since the 70's without any problems and I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. YMMV.

[ken farr]

Alright:

  So I guess my question should be this, Is there such a thing a current manufacture street motorcycle rim that does not have a saftey bead ? Spoke or not, tubeless or not.
  I am not talking about wheels off of a 1939 Scott Flying Squirrel, or a modern dirt only dirt bike.
 
  kjf

[fotoguzzi]

modern DR 650 has a safety bead in the rear rim but not the front.

heres another taping video'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikKeVNBAmQQ

[Triple Jim]

Please explain this to me.  I have asked before, and never have had it explained any further than " the wheels are different."

Ken, here's a photo of a rim with the "safety beads" that tubless motorcycle rims have.  I still don't quite understand why the beads aren't needed with tube type tires.  Don't they flop around and try to come off the rum when run flat?  And why don't cars have safety beads on their rims, even though they use tubless tires?



Here's another photo, showing two rims (left and center) without safety beads, and one (right) with them.  The ones with the beads aren't always wider than the non-bead type.   

[Lannis]

Absolutely, positively no way I would ever run tubeless on a tube rim without a tube. I have been using tubes since the 70's without any problems and I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. YMMV.

That's me.   Three flat tires in 450,000+ miles and 45 years of riding.   One flat with a tube in 1977 (plus one "unforced error" due to my sloppy shop practice), and two flats with nails in tubeless in the last 16 years.

It's just not an issue, not a big enough one to run a tire on a rim for which it is not designed.   I don't care how many people say "Well, I'm still alive, aren't I?".

Lannis

[Kiwi_Roy]

We are forgetting one thing.
Did they even make tubeless tires for motorcycles back in 72 when my loop rolled off the factory floor?

Where's it written that the tubeless tires can only be fitted to rims with a safety bead or run with a tube?

Should I also avoid any other new technology invented since 72?

If tubes are so much better why not run them with your modern tubeless rim?

Next time I get a rear wheel flat I will try to remember how much fun it would be dealing with a tube on the side of the road, that's really what drove me to switch.