V7 Map Comparison - GT vs Beetle Map (GuzziDiag)

[ponti_33609]

Right. So if it is related to the TPS like I suspect, then it's unlikely I'll be able to fix it.

Bob, how many miles on yours?

[emoji19] 1,250


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[beetle]

The TPS issue may yet affect you. Sorry.

 

[Kev m]

So what is the TPS issue?

[ponti_33609]

[emoji19] 1,250


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Crap. So is it posted on WG on what to do?


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[Zinfan]

This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?

  Correct for my 2013 V7 Stone with beetle map and GuzziTech aftermarket full exhaust (i.e. no lamda's at all).  I'm very happy with my map and would be hesitant to change it out.  The map I'm using is labeled V7-1TB-NoCat-C6C0.2016.09.27.bin

[beetle]

Crap. So is it posted on WG on what to do?

No, because I haven't figured the root cause and fix yet.

[ponti_33609]

No, because I haven't figured the root cause and fix yet.

Ah. I thought the just go bad and need replacing.  You mean you may potentially do something within a map to help correct.


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[beetle]

  Correct for my 2013 V7 Stone with beetle map and GuzziTech aftermarket full exhaust (i.e. no lamda's at all).  I'm very happy with my map and would be hesitant to change it out.  The map I'm using is labeled V7-1TB-NoCat-C6C0.2016.09.27.bin

No need to change. Current map iterations work just fine. A handful of bikes have the stall/stumble. The fix will be for them.

[beetle]

Ah. I thought the just go bad and need replacing.  You mean you may potentially do something within a map to help correct.

Yes!

[beetle]

So what is the TPS issue?

The TPS rides on plastic cam which is set in the factory and is allegedly not adjustable in the field. The cam wears over time. In fact, the factory say not to do a TPS reset after 3000 miles/kilometres (I don't recall which) as it will adversely affect it. When we reflash a map we relearn the throttle which sets the closed throttle value back to 0.9/1.0 for V7, or 1.0/1.2 for V7II. As the cam wears we get an issue where the throttle angle can jump from say 1.8 to 12.4 as you roll it on. At least that is what I think is happening. So far my tests confirm as much. Anyway, when the engine is cold, as you open the throttle the ECU can't reconcile the sudden change in throttle angle with the correction tables based on current sensor input. Result? Stall or stumble. When it's hot, there is less fuel in the mixture, so it's not evident or obvious. The problem for me is striking a balance between cold/rich mixture and hot/lean mixture so as to allow easy starting and stumble free ride, whether the engine is hot or cold.

[Kev m]

The TPS rides on plastic cam which is set in the factory and is allegedly not adjustable in the field. The cam wears over time. In fact, the factory say not to do a TPS reset after 3000 miles/kilometres (I don't recall which) as it will adversely affect it. When we reflash a map we relearn the throttle which sets the closed throttle value back to 0.9/1.0 for V7, or 1.0/1.2 for V7II. As the cam wears we get an issue where the throttle angle can jump from say 1.8 to 12.4 as you roll it on. At least that is what I think is happening. So far my tests confirm as much. Anyway, when the engine is cold, as you open the throttle the ECU can't reconcile the sudden change in throttle angle with the correction tables based on current sensor input. Result? Stall or stumble. When it's hot, there is less fuel in the mixture, so it's not evident or obvious. The problem for me is striking a balance between cold/rich mixture and hot/lean mixture so as to allow easy starting and stumble free ride, whether the engine is hot or cold.

Interesting.

Would it change anything in your theory if I tell you the mine has done it since the day I brought it home.

I.e. it hunts shortly after a cold start and will stall if you attempt to pull away in the first minute or two.

After that it's perfect the rest of the day unless I park it for hours. The rest of the day I can start it and likely ride off in seconds.

[beetle]

Not really. I was talking about bikes already remapped with lambda off.

[pete roper]

I think it goes a bit deeper than the crappy plastic cam alone for that reason. Some machines do it from new, some don't. Some never seem to exhibit it, some get worse with time.

To me that would indicate a variable of some sort. It may just be something as simple a crappy manufacturing tolerances or some other form of hardware issue? Whatever the cause it is vexing. Not because it is really outside the patience of a normal owner, (In my experience, even in the dead of winter, as long as you don't touch the throttle it will get beyond the 'Problem' stage within a minute or at the maximum two, if just left to idle.) but simply because on a modern, fuel injected vehicle you should be able to just hit the button and ride!

If there is anybody in the south of the U.K. who has a particularly annoying example I'd love to see it. The conditions for observing it are close to ideal at the moment! It's bloody freezing and damp and as miserable a Tory party conference! After burying my aunt on Wednesday I've got about a week running around visiting friends and relatives. If I can see a *Really* crappy one it might give me some ideas to bounce around....

Pete

[beetle]

From brand new? Interesting.

[Andy1]

Is it possible to lubricate the nylon cam?

Andy1


Peter - have a look at the Guzziriders UK forum - it has a small block section - it is a lot quieter than this forum but you may be able to find somone with a rough running V7 in Southern UK through it.  I am sorry I am not in UK at the moment.

[Kev m]

From brand new? Interesting.

Guess I wasn't clear, but that's what I was saying. I bought one of the first 1TB Stones available in the US (ordered it from FBF) and it's done it from day/mile #1.

Also interesting might be the fact that I actually think it's WORSE the hotter it is out. I.E. I think it stumbles/dies more during warm-up on an 80°F day than a 32°F day.

My pet theory was that the cold/dense air and cold start enrichment was actually better in those circumstances.

Humidity might play a role as well.

<shrugs>

[Cam3512]

I still have the "cold" start issue on my '14 Special, then it runs fine.  Even happens after being parked for 1-1 1/2 hours, regardless of ambient temps (I have to warm it up after a breakfast/lunch stop).  This is with the latest factory map.

I've also had some issues with IMMDIATELY restarting the bike after a long hard run.  Turns over, but takes longer to fire.  As if saying "we were on a roll, why did you stop"?   Not sure what causes that...

[ponti_33609]

I still have the "cold" start issue on my '14 Special, then it runs fine.  Even happens after being parked for 1-1 1/2 hours, regardless of ambient temps (I have to warm it up after a breakfast/lunch stop).  This is with the latest factory map.

I've also had some issues with IMMDIATELY restarting the bike after a long hard run.  Turns over, but takes longer to fire.  As if saying "we were on a roll, why did you stop"?   Not sure what causes that...

Do you see any differences between your 2 different v7's?


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[Kev m]

Do you see any differences between your 2 different v7's?


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You're thinking Jay - and he still has his 2 different 1TB V7s.... maybe he'll chime in, but I'm expecting the answer will be no (nothing significant).

[ponti_33609]

You're thinking Jay - and he still has his 2 different 1TB V7s.... maybe he'll chime in, but I'm expecting the answer will be no (nothing significant).

Yup. Jay. Sorry about that.


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[pete roper]

Is it possible to lubricate the nylon cam?

Andy1


Peter - have a look at the Guzziriders UK forum - it has a small block section - it is a lot quieter than this forum but you may be able to find somone with a rough running V7 in Southern UK through it.  I am sorry I am not in UK at the moment.

Use any petrochemical type lubricant and you'll be buggered. Nylon swells if these are used. It's not accessible anyway.

[sturgeon]

This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?

That certainly was my experience before the factory map update at the dealer. Prior to that I would wheel the bike out, start it, grab my jacket and helmet and gloves, put all that on, back the bike down the driveway, then ride away. Just firing it up and riding was guaranteed to either induce a stall, or require lots of throttle/clutch action. After the map upgrade it was greatly improved, maybe just a put-on-helmet delay req'd on cold days ;-)

FWIW I live in Canada and riding temps can range from below freezing to 35C. Sometimes in the same month.

Edit: Mine had the cold start stumble problem from day one brand-new, less than 10 kilometers on the odo. I think it was at around 8,000 km when I had the dealer update the map, when it was in for some unrelated warranty work.

[beetle]

Well, that buggers that theory then. Next....

[Andy1]

Beetle - nylon lubricants are available that will not swell the nylon - I am aware of the problem - silicon sprays are OK, and sprays specifically for lubricating nylon are available.  But if the cam in unaccesible then no go.

Sorry if this is getting boring, but with the standard map and no lambdas fitted I have no warm up issues.  I start the bike and ride off.  Yes I treat it gently for the first few miles as I would any engine, but since the lambdas were removed there is now no hesitancy or stumble.

Interesting that Beetle's map disables the lambdas.

Andy1
 

[malik]

Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? 

Yes, 163,000 km on the 2010 V7 Classic, and still counting.

[malik]

This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?

Correct, Mark. The V7 Special starts ith a faster idle & a smell of fuel, quickly drops back to a steady idle (around 1350 rpm), and is usually fine after the gloves & helmet (even the fast Vozz) go on.

BTW this bike is now running again now that I've replaced the fuel line I broke while (clumsily) taking the tank off. Do take note that the metal the manifolds are made of is close to butter - it is all too easy to cross thread the injector bolt hole, even by hand.

[SmithSwede]

Cam3512 and others:

Good point---I had forgotten that problem.   If my 13 Stone is plenty hot, and I stop for gas and then try to re-start, it can take a while.   So maybe that's another map issue that can be fixed.

Under these conditions, I've gotten into the habit of opening the throttle about half way while cranking it, and then closing it down as it cranks.  I could be totally wrong, but I think it's too rich under these condition, and opening the throttle plates to let in some air seems to help a lot. 

[paulbr]

My cold start experience is exactly the same as Sturgeon's, including the improvement with the newer factory map, though my ridng weather is more 0-40 C.

It would be nice to be able to take off straight away, especially leaving work, but it's not an appliance to me so a bit of time consuming ritual around helmet and gloves while it warms up isn't a bad thing

[Mr Pootle]

Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? 

it sounds impressive, but it's only just over 100,000 miles.

[pete roper]

Oh believe me, if you knew where Mal rides his bikes? It's impressive!