Loss of Power - V7

[ponti_33609]

Many may have read my comparison of my recent Beetle/GT re-flash.  So a week has goon by and I "all of a sudden" lost power under acceleration.  Here are my symptoms:

1. Start-up and rpm seem normal.
2. With Guzzidiag I ran the fault check and no faults were found.
3. Throttle at "1" which is normal.
4. With acceleration it almost stalls but limps along.  The rpms are still correct to the speed and gear.
5. I reinstalled the map FYI and no effect.
6. Strong gas odor.
7. Pipes, boots etc all appear to be tight/intact.

Does this sound like anything to any of you guys?  I was going to change my plugs with the ones recommended by MI.  I have the new plugs and caps.  Any other thoughts?

Any advice appreciated.
Bob

[LaGrasta]

I'm posting for comparison's sake. I've not experienced any of these symptoms. I have a '10 V7cc with 17k, upgraded with the GuzziTech reflash, PowerCommander and Mistral pipes.

[antmanbee]

Check in the fuel tank the submerged hose and filter for leaks. If you have a leak you will not get enough fuel pressure to the injectors.

[ponti_33609]

Check in the fuel tank the submerged hose and filter for leaks. If you have a leak you will not get enough fuel pressure to the injectors.

Do you mean under the tank or inside?

[ponti_33609]

I'm posting for comparison's sake. I've not experienced any of these symptoms. I have a '10 V7cc with 17k, upgraded with the GuzziTech reflash, PowerCommander and Mistral pipes.

Yes, I have the GT map as well and reloaded that as a test and have the same result so I believe it isn't map related.

[antmanbee]

The pump/filter assembly is accessed from under the tank where the fuel line connects. Sometimes you can look in the tank and see fuel swirling around depending on how much of a leak you have. But to fix it the tank is removed and the pump/filter needs to be removed.

[pete roper]

Doesn't sound map related. My suspicion would be plug caps or fuel delivery. Which caps are you running? The strong fuel odour would suggest that fuel is being delivered but not burnt which is why I'm thinking spark and early single TB bikes had a batch of dodgy plug caps.

Don't suggest riding it until fixed as the excess fuel will burn in the cat and damage both the cat and the pipe finish.

Pete

[ponti_33609]

Doesn't sound map related. My suspicion would be plug caps or fuel delivery. Which caps are you running? The strong fuel odour would suggest that fuel is being delivered but not burnt which is why I'm thinking spark and early single TB bikes had a batch of dodgy plug caps.

Don't suggest riding it until fixed as the excess fuel will burn in the cat and damage both the cat and the pipe finish.

Pete

Thx for that tip.  I have the original plugs and caps which have been report to ARC and cause issues.  I will change both out before I ride more.

[SmithSwede]

 I've had this happen numerous times on my 13 V7 Stone.  Engine would start and run at moderate speeds and throttle openings normally.  But any attempt to accelerate yields no power and bogging.

My issues traced back to bad spark plug caps and/or fouled plugs.

The OEM rubber boot cap is crap.  Get the NGK phenolic style.   

I can get you the specific part numbers when I get home.

Also important to seal the wire/cap interface with some silicon sealer.  The spark plug wire leads directly to the cap, without a loop or low point for water to drip off.  So if you ride in a really heavy rain, your spark plug caps can fill with water and short out. 

That failure mode caused me some real grief this summer in Galveston.

[ponti_33609]

I've had this happen numerous times on my 13 V7 Stone.  Engine would start and run at moderate speeds and throttle openings normally.  But any attempt to accelerate yields no power and bogging.

My issues traced back to bad spark plug caps and/or fouled plugs.

The OEM rubber boot cap is crap.  Get the NGK phenolic style.   

I can get you the specific part numbers when I get home.

Also important to seal the wire/cap interface with some silicon sealer.  The spark plug wire leads directly to the cap, without a loop or low point for water to drip off.  So if you ride in a really heavy rain, your spark plug caps can fill with water and short out. 

That failure mode caused me some real grief this summer in Galveston.

Appreciate the input.  I actually bought the plugs and caps based off a Service write-up posted by MI.  I purchased:

Plugs = CPR8EA-9
Caps = XBO5F

If you find different would appreciate the post!

[malik]

I'm using the CR9EK plugs with the XD05F (-R) caps. (The R is only for the red (maroon colour)). These caps push on to the threaded end of the plug with a satisfying audible & tactile feedback.

[SmithSwede]

Bob:

Yes, those are the right ones.  NGK CPR8EA-9 spark plugs with threaded end, topped by NGK XD05F spark plug caps. 

And seal the wire entry into the cap with silicon! 

And while you have that silicon handy, waterproof the speed sensor mounted by the rear brake caliper.  Heavy rain can get into that sensor as well, and cause the speedometer/odometer to either not work, or read 140 mph speed while the odometer spins upwards. 

[ponti_33609]

Bob:

Yes, those are the right ones.  NGK CPR8EA-9 spark plugs with threaded end, topped by NGK XD05F spark plug caps. 

And seal the wire entry into the cap with silicon! 

And while you have that silicon handy, waterproof the speed sensor mounted by the rear brake caliper.  Heavy rain can get into that sensor as well, and cause the speedometer/odometer to either not work, or read 140 mph speed while the odometer spins upwards.

I bought XB and XD caps based on conflicting things I have read.  Will use the XD in a few hours and report back.


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[ponti_33609]

Ok. I switched the plugs and caps. Like you guys suggested that seemed to be the issue. Although I didn't see bad arcing the cap didn't fit well and the right cylinder was wet with fuel. It's raining so I didn't go beyond the block but "all seems right with the world' again. [emoji2].

So now we can all go back to the GT/Beetle map comparison thread.

Thx for everyone's help. Always appreciated.


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[vstevens]

Ok. I switched the plugs and caps. Like you guys suggested that seemed to be the issue. Although I didn't see bad arcing the cap didn't fit well and the right cylinder was wet with fuel. It's raining so I didn't go beyond the block but "all seems right with the world' again. [emoji2].

So now we can all go back to the GT/Beetle map comparison thread.

Thx for everyone's help. Always appreciated.


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Thanks for posting a resolution.  My 2013 stone has not presented these symptoms so I haven't replace plugs and caps... but reading resolutions like this, with help from the Guzzi community, reinforce my confidence in all things Guzzi   

[ponti_33609]

Thanks for posting a resolution.  My 2013 stone has not presented these symptoms so I haven't replace plugs and caps... but reading resolutions like this, with help from the Guzzi community, reinforce my confidence in all things Guzzi   

Where I re-mapped a week ago I naturally figured I must have done something wrong even though that made no sense. The bike had run so well. I actually bought the caps/plugs 6 months ago just never installed.


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[pete roper]

If there was a corrupt map upload, (Very rare and unlikely.) if there is an issue with a map it will be apparent immediately. If something has been running fine and then decides not to it is highly unlikely to be map or ECU related, if the ECU has a problem it will almost certainly just leave the bike dead in the water, with bikes with a digital dash you'll usually get the 'ECU disconnected' symbol too.

One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of times I hear tales of "My bike started doing 'so and so', the shop put on a new ECU but the problem's still there!" Unless they are voltage spiked the ECU's seem to be as reliable as an anvil. I always look to the ECU as a very last resort rather than a first one.

In this case the fact that the bike was running fine after a map upload and then it went bad clearly indicated it wasn't a map issue. The codes can't change themselves. Despite what some seem to think the ECU isn't inhabited by gnomes riding unicorns. It's just another bit of electronics.

Pete

[sign216]

 the ECU isn't inhabited by gnomes riding unicorns.

Pete

Oh, then the dealership mis-informed me.

[ponti_33609]

If there was a corrupt map upload, (Very rare and unlikely.) if there is an issue with a map it will be apparent immediately. If something has been running fine and then decides not to it is highly unlikely to be map or ECU related, if the ECU has a problem it will almost certainly just leave the bike dead in the water, with bikes with a digital dash you'll usually get the 'ECU disconnected' symbol too.

One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of times I hear tales of "My bike started doing 'so and so', the shop put on a new ECU but the problem's still there!" Unless they are voltage spiked the ECU's seem to be as reliable as an anvil. I always look to the ECU as a very last resort rather than a first one.

In this case the fact that the bike was running fine after a map upload and then it went bad clearly indicated it wasn't a map issue. The codes can't change themselves. Despite what some seem to think the ECU isn't inhabited by gnomes riding unicorns. It's just another bit of electronics.

Pete
[/quote
Yeah Pete my brain was telling me that but I am pretty much a nitwit mechanically so my first response was I did so thing wrong etc. this being said I did successfully install your slippage plate on my old v11 sport. [emoji4]


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[pete roper]

Nah, makes sense. Always go first to the thing you last messed with. It's just that with something like a map you can't do that as it'll either work or not!

I managed to embarrass meself the other day. I had to re-belt my Mana and rebuild the front variator hub. All went fine but one of the things you have to do to access the transmission cavity to get at the belt is disconnect the starter.

On reassembly I gave the cable and it's connector a cursory clean and reattached it. Fired it up, all good, did the belt retraining etc, job done.

Anyway I ride into Canberra on Wednesday, park up, do what I had to do, come back, hit the start button, NOTHING, Bugger! Helmet off, I can hear the relay clicking so I know it's that bloody connector to the starter. Never mind. Grab the 10mm spanner out of the tool kit. Double Bugger! I've forgotten to put it back in the 'Tank' after having everything out to access the diagnostic plug to retrain the TCU after re-belting.

So I had to call Jude, get her to come over, (Luckily I was only a Km or so away from her work!) grab the car, drop her back at work, drive back home, swap for the van, (In case I was wrong in my diagnosis.) grab a couple of tools, drive back into Canberra, lie down next to bike, loosen an re-tighten cable to starter, press button, VROOOM!

ARSE!

Load bike into van. Drive to Jude's work, unload bike, park van for her to drive home in, ride home!

And all because I was lazy!

Arse squared! 

Serves me right!

Pete