Repowering the 3VL TWIN - Chapter 3: 36 Hours Later

[rodekyll]

I have unexpectedly acquired a NIB 09 Breva engine.  I had wanted a 1200 when I was building it and installed the hydro because I couldn't have one.  So when the opportunity arose,  and the price was coincidently all the cash I had on me, I felt compelled.  It's in this waist-high wooden crate that smells like what I imagine is Italy.  I've yet to uncrate it, but I took a peek inside.  It's in bubble wrap in the crate with moto guzzi tape all over.  I can see an oil cooler.

I'll be stripping the timing cover, alternator, cam, and flywheel and refitting it to run the torque converter.  I'll be using the injector group from the hydro and 15M injection.  Are there things I need to fix on a new Breva engine or otherwise know about before I plug it in and turn it on?

[ITSec]

I can't speak to the modifications you're doing, but as to the rest of the engine it's pretty dang solid. The 2-valve 1200 bikes have some foibles, but they're all outside of the engine - things specific to the bike rather than the block.

You're already going to be replacing the alternator belt (one from '09 would be cracking); as you're installing I'd look to be sure you can get at the oil pressure sensor. Remember that it is a 2-plug per jug design and leave yourself a way to get at the inner plugs when needed (I change mine at the first convenient time after 30,000 miles). The 'things to fix' list otherwise is all stuff on the bike and not the block.

Have fun... it'll definitely have a bit more punch once you get the fuel injection map lined up with your needs.

[chuck peterson]

"I'll be stripping the timing cover, alternator, cam, and flywheel and refitting it to run the torque converter....."

But of course, I can't think of you doing anything else....roll on Converts!

[Aaron D.]

I hesitate to suggest it because you might just do it, but..

..add a hydrostatic final drive? Or even more eccentric, a straight hydraulic drive?

Look ma, no shaft, nothin' but hose!

[John A]

I hesitate to suggest it because you might just do it, but..

..add a hydrostatic final drive? Or even more eccentric, a straight hydraulic drive?

Look ma, no shaft, nothin' but hose!

believe me, David has explored all those options before coming up with what he is running now. there are different ways of doing it of course and some of the constraints are time and money. he hopefully may be along to explain some of the finer points but he has engineered a nice setup

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Only thing I can see from parts diagrams that might present a problem is the crank nose. The Breva 1200 crank looks a bit like a Loop crank with "steps" and a keyway. The seal is 22 x 35 x 7 and I'm guessing it runs directly on the crank.



The crank nose of your present engine is long and straight, no steps. The seal is 28 x 37 x 7 and runs on a spacer.



Probably easy enough to machine a similar spacer for the Breva crank. IIRC correctly you've eliminated the crank driven alternator and drive one off of the driveshaft or axle instead? That will make it easier since you won't have to figure out how to fit the rotor to the Breva crank.

As always, an interesting project! Have fun!

[rodekyll]

Good stuff!  Didn't know about the dual plug thing.  Does this require  different coil than the 03 EV uses?  Or how does it happen?  I plan to use my existing 15M ECU.

Yes, Charlie, the alternator is belt driven from the drive shaft.  Another wrinkle is that the timing cover is from a Convert, which is yet another crank style (bosh alternator).  I'll have to check that seal.  There might already be a seal made to get there with no fuss.

I'm going to open the crate today and find the other stuff I didn't know.



I went with the Convert t/c and direct fluid drive with no gearbox to answer the question "With the natural superiority of the Mighty 'Vert, who needs a transmission?"  I theorized that the answer was "Not me!"  With enough torque in a broad enough band the torque converter alone could power a bike.  If the final drive ratio through the differential and rear wheel diameter was correct, I should be able to go from a stop to highway speed and beyond in an acceptablr rpm range for roadspeed.

I've worked my way in a really indirect route from Seattle to East Texas with a hydro engine coupled through the t/c directly to the driveshaft.  That 6k or so miles proves the concept.  I've been speed limited by the handling, not the horsepower.  The 1100 hydro is quite adequate -- 75mph cruise is comfy -- but I'd wanted a 1200 from the begining of the project.  I'll be excited to get it installed.  Anyone want to cruise on down to the Oleo Ranch and help?  I can pay in vintage bike parts with genuine patina built into every piece!

[ITSec]

Good stuff!  Didn't know about the dual plug thing.  Does this require  different coil than the 03 EV uses?  Or how does it happen?  I plan to use my existing 15M ECU.

Yes, Charlie, the alternator is belt driven from the drive shaft.  Another wrinkle is that the timing cover is from a Convert, which is yet another crank style (bosh alternator).  I'll have to check that seal.  There might already be a seal made to get there with no fuss.

I'm going to open the crate today and find the other stuff I didn't know.

They use a HT coil literally on each side (bolted left and right of the frame near the neck), with a line out for each plug - not sure how that will play with the 15M. Each coil fires both plugs simultaneously for its cylinder, ECM manages the signal.

The alternator used on these at this time period is a belt-driven Bosch, if I recall properly.

I'll send you the PDF of the Norge parts manual so you can see what's what...

[rodekyll]

Ran into a couple more glitches.

Intake manifold flanges are different than the early 1100s.  can't be reasonably modified.  I'll need to find some.

This unit vents from the timing cover area.  I'll be removing all that.  So I need to figure a way to vent it.

tony -- sent you a PM.

[Hahnda]

So what is to happen with the old 1100 engine?

[rodekyll]

The current plan is to ship it to Seattle and use it some future project.  You saw it.  If you have a better idea, PM me.

[oldbike54]

 Go Kart . Vroom Vroom !

 Dusty

[Kev m]

I don't know how this fits into your plan, but keep in mind that the last of the Tonti Calis (Cal-Vin, Black Eagle, that Coca-Cola looking final model) used a version of the 1100 motor that shared the internal architecture of the Breva 1100 (Pistons, cylinders, cam timing, etc.) not sure about ECM and ignition system, but there might be some parts crossover that could help.

[rodekyll]

Yes, I'm noticing that the Vintage and 1100s of that e3ra have the bigger intake flange and some other similarities to the 1200.

Does anyone know if the intake side rubber boots are the same between 1100 and 1200 engines?

[rodekyll]

I have intake manifolds and coils.  I think I have the vent/return problem solved on paper.  Still outstanding is the crank seal.  I need to go from the OD of a Convert/V1000/bosch alternator-type timing cover to the ID of the Breva.  I can't make out the numbers on the Convert seal.  Looking for those dimensions.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I have intake manifolds and coils.  I think I have the vent/return problem solved on paper.  Still outstanding is the crank seal.  I need to go from the OD of a Convert/V1000/bosch alternator-type timing cover to the ID of the Breva.  I can't make out the numbers on the Convert seal.  Looking for those dimensions.

As I posted earlier, the Tonti/Convert seal is 28 x 38 x 7, the Breva seal has a 22 mm inner diameter. So you'd need a 22 x 38 x 7 seal. A quick Google search shows that Motion Industries has several choices with those dimensions, other sources should have them as well.
 https://www.motionindustries.com/productCatalogSearch.jsp?q=22+X+38+X+7+++MM+A-NBR+SEAL&numItems=20&pageNo=3

[Lesman]

How are you triggering the ignition on the breva motor? Will the engine be carbed or Injected? Will the pulley on the Breva fit earlier 1100 motors?

[rodekyll]

Thanks, Charlie.  I misunderstood your previous post. Drugs may have been involved.  I thought you were talking about the breva v ev seals, not breva v convert.  I think this solves that problem.

Lesman, I'm using the phonic wheel on the breva to trigger a 15M ecu.  So it's injected.  I don't know about pulley interchange, but if it fit a loop crank a guy could put the alternator from the breva on an ELDO or ambo.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks, Charlie.  I misunderstood your previous post. Drugs may have been involved.  I thought you were talking about the breva v ev seals, not breva v convert.  I think this solves that problem.

The front crank seal on all the Tontis with Bosch or Ducati alternators is the same size - V7 Sport up through the EVs.

[Lesman]

You said phonic wheel triggers the ignition. Where is it located?

[rodekyll]

The phonic wheel hides behind the camshaft.  It's read by the `cam position sensor` in the top left of the timig area. 

[rodekyll]

I hate to be a bother, but the choices in seals are fluoro rubber, nitrile, rubber, and viton.  Any opinions on which is the better material?


And Charlie -- the reason I asked about the cal III seal size in another topic is because as I undeerstand it, the seal on the suprisa alternator-equipped tontis rides directly on the crank.  It seems to be different than the others, but I can't verify that.  I know the suprisa seal has a different part #.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I hate to be a bother, but the choices in seals are fluoro rubber, nitrile, rubber, and viton.  Any opinions on which is the better material?


And Charlie -- the reason I asked about the cal III seal size in another topic is because as I understand it, the seal on the suprisa alternator-equipped tontis rides directly on the crank.  It seems to be different than the others, but I can't verify that.  I know the suprisa seal has a different part #.

I'd go for Viton. AFAIK, the original Breva seal is brown in color, which usually means a Viton seal.

Oopsy! Forgot about those "oddballs"!  Yep, Tontis with the Saprisa alternator use a different sized seal - 20 x 38 x 8.

[rodekyll]

Thanks, Charlie!  This moves my effort forward.   

That oddball stuff -- I had to really look to find it. Too bad it's wrong in most directions!

You're gonna love my vent solution.  I loves it when there's a coupla grand in engine over there and I'm over here chucking up a bit in the hole saw.   

[Lesman]

I'm sorry that I wasn't grasping what you wrote. You will be running FI/ecm. The cam position sensor will trigger the ignition.

[rodekyll]

It's hard to follow, don't feel bad.  As you can read above, I've been confused in this topic too. Good thing we have Charlie to 'splain us!

[Muzz]

I really enjoyed your trike build thread when you did it RK, and am enjoying this one as well.

Amazing the knowledge and info available on this site, and always great to see a plan take shape and come together as a result.

Of course, we expect the odd  as well otherwise it didn't happen!

[rodekyll]

Yeah.   I couldn't get through this stuff on my own.  We all need those big guns behind us.

 . . . and pics?  I can do that.








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The black hose in pic 4 is my big problem.  It's the crankcase vent.  Pic 3 shows there is no plumbing or even holes in the casting for the traditional breather.  The Convert timing cover has no accommodations for a breather.  I'm fixing that.

[Muzz]

Currently johnr has a similar ventilation problem when we put the WG V11 into his Cali. It ended up with no PCV valve; the two ventilation systems are completely different. Ended up filling the street with white smoke after about 3kms. (Had the correct amount of oil in the sump).

Would be good if you could photographically document your solution please RK, and explain the reasoning behind the solution you come up with.

[rodekyll]

Is your V11 breather like mine? 

Post a snappy of the front of the engine as modified, please.