Alternative venting of top-alternator V1100/1200

[rodekyll]

In another topic I mentioned that for me, the challenge of adding a top-alternator engine such as the Breva, to a Tonti frame is figuring out a crankcase breather.  The regular engine has drilled castings in the bellhousing area for this purpose.  The B1200 does not.  In fact, the case itself has no natural contribution to breathing.  The breather is part of the timing cover.  I thought I was the first to try this conversion, but others -- and you know who you are -- are also struggling with it.

The cover-based breather would not be a problem if the cover was regular from a tonti point-of-view, but it is not.  It has the alternator mount in the top, which makes it taller than the space we want to fit it in.  Also, the cover is not compatible with the front engine mount of a full-cradle frame.  There's no place to stick the bolt through.  These complications make it necessary to replace the top-alt timing cover with something from a tonti.  It could also be the basis for the solution (dramatic pause).

The tonti cover substitution solves the forward mount problem instantly (once you cut the bottom fins off to clear the oil cooler pipes), but it does nothing for the vent.  This topic is to explore alternative venting options.  I have a plan, but let's toss all the ideas into a nice greasy salad and see what tastes best.

[guzzisteve]

A late 1100 Cali cover comes w/outlet hole and union GU03007260 to vent. Cover is on Hydro & later till 13 Cali.

[pete roper]

Isn't that vent actually on the crankcase Steve? I'm sitting in the bar at Heathrow airport and have no way to check! I thought the vent was in the wall of the case though. Happy to be wrong though...

Pete

[guzzisteve]

Shows it on R/H side of front cover, three different cover p/n , hydro $257, early Vintage $75 , late vintage up to 13 cali $298

[rodekyll]

That doesn't ring my hydro bell.  IIRC, it had a plain, featureless tonti cover with crank alternator mounting points.  Steve, can you post a pic?

[edit]
Just took a peek at my CONVERT-ed hydro.  It has the traditional breather pipe in the bellhousing.

[rodekyll]

Did I read on WG that a problem with the old style breather was the oil return ending up below the sump oil level?  Something about case pressure driving oil up the line and overflowing/fouling/pumping out?

[guzzisteve]

Good pic on page 78 of workshop man GU03920171  Pub 05/2003 . I have it from download at dealer I worked at, can't find it on the web. I don't how to convert 1 page and post it here in a pic. I may be able to email you the man in zip file.

edit/       Found it

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_california_update_en_de_ne.pdf

[Muzz]

Old style breather with return going below the sump oil level?

The cobbled together system that John's Cali ended up with showing the return. Now I can't remember if that was the oil line return or the breather.

[Muzz]

The V11 motor as shipped by Commie Nick. No sign of a breather on the front.





Old Cali engine out. No breather on front.




Old engine parted out. Is that the breather I see on the top of the bell housing?




The only photo I can find so far showing any breathing system on the V11.

[johnr]

Old style breather with return going below the sump oil level?

The cobbled together system that John's Cali ended up with showing the return. Now I can't remember if that was the oil line return or the breather.

This was the work around to account for he differences in the breathing of the lemans and the hydro motor. 

It seemed prefectly reasonable at the time but  resulted in the air box filling with oil and hydraulicing the motor after a short time.  A number of steps are about to be taken which, with a bit of luck, will fix this.

RK, it seems to me that it would be easy enough to fit a V11 or hydro type breather fitting to your engine. It would involve  little machining but a fairly large disassembling of the motor.

Personally, especially considering my own experience, I would prefer the breathing system to be well baffled, and by taking it from the timing cover this could be better achieved and would be my preference. It would involve machining the timing cover itself if I'm understanding your post correctly or, and perhaps more tidily, the casing behind it. (though that would again involve a large disassembly)

[Muzz]

My fuzzy memory John, I cannot remember just what we did and why. I know we had to still use the Cali throttle bodies due to the angles on the V11 ones being different. If you have a look through Clancy's recent posts you will see a wee mod he did to his V7 to stop stuff going in to the air box.

[Muzz]

So John, after our wee discussion, what is the possibility of drilling, tapping and putting a breather on the top of the Cali front cover which is now on the V11 motor?

[johnr]

My fuzzy memory John, I cannot remember just what we did and why. I know we had to still use the Cali throttle bodies due to the angles on the V11 ones being different. If you have a look through Clancy's recent posts you will see a wee mod he did to his V7 to stop stuff going in to the air box.

Not having the condenser return fittings on the heads of the V11 motor they were joined at a 'T' junction (halving their capacity) and led to the sump via the sump drain hole.

This as  it turned out resulted in the drainage of oil from the breather condenser failing to cope, filling the condenser and arriving under pressure and in enough quantities at the air box to over whelm its drain.

The fix (for me) is in two parts. Draining the oil in the breathing system more effectively and minimising it getting in there in the first place.

To this end;
1/ In goes a Roper Plate to reduce froth.
2/ Out comes the non return valve on the breather as per the V11 set up (allowing
    oil to drain back down rather than be pumped)
3/ Machining the heads to accept the Hydro breather return fittings thus doubling
    the return. (Damn! Have to take the heads off for this)
4/ A pcv valve at the overflow end of things to stop moisture laden air getting
     back to the heads. (a problem I had with the hydro)

And of course test it all by having the overflow go temporarily to a glass jar on my crash bars so I can see if any oil comes out.

Not sure if any of this is of any use to RK though

[rodekyll]

If you've already been through this, please be patient.  What I'm describing is a straight adaptation of the V11 engine to a 2002 EV frame.  ymmv.

In your last pic I see the breather pipe in the bellhousing.  I see the yellow tape on the vertical end of it up between the cylinders.  On the tonti that pipe connects to a tube in the frame.  The frame itself acts as the condenser.  The tube is in the top frame tube, pointed downward, up near the steering head.  The tube is a lazy S shape.  There should be more little tubes for the head breathers and return line toward the rear of that frame tube.

There is a rimmed-bullet-looking PCV valve that lives in the top of the aforementioned engine pipe, up where the yellow tape is.  That's the check valve system.  If it's not in there or is stuck, you could have a problem.  It often gets stuck up in the hose, so it comes up missing from the pipe.  Be sure it's there.

In pic 4 there are two plugs on the bottom of the sump.  The one on the left is the oil return line.  It doesn't need to be what you have in pic1.  You can get a metric banjo setup that will let you run a soft line from there to the frame tube.

So get a pcv valve in that rear pipe and run a hose to the front of the frame.  That does the vent.  Get a banjo bolt, banjo, and hose to connect to the rear of the frame tube.  That does the return.  Be sure there are hoses from the head breather spigots to the frame tubes.  Remove the hose from the airbox and route to a catch can.  In the Tonti world this should work.

On the other hand, I may be imagining the entire thing.  Really? no head breathers on a V11?

[rodekyll]

I think you're going to have more problems than you solve if you remove the pcv valve.  If you really need more return, remember that you don't need the V11 timing cover in a tonti frame. 

Get a late cali timing cover with the vent stuff up front and use that hole for aux return.  If you don't like the price, get an 850t-type timing cover with mechanical tach.  Replace the tach guts with a spigot and do aux return there. You'll have to cut off the bottom fins of these covers to clear the oil cooler lines.

[Muzz]

On the other hand, I may be imagining the entire thing.  Really? no head breathers on a V11?

This appears to be the case. My SB has them. <shrug>

This has been discussed. To me that is the logical place to have them to lower the mayonnaise levels.

In a nutshell John's problem was the oil coming out of the condenser overwhelmed the drain in the filter box and went down the intakes. The monstrosity under the gearbox was a quick method of getting it mobile within a very restricted time frame.

No doubt John will chime in. There were reasons as to why things were done  at the time.

[johnr]

So John, after our wee discussion, what is the possibility of drilling, tapping and putting a breather on the top of the Cali front cover which is now on the V11 motor?

That I suppose is just as possible as it is for RK, but hopefully I won't need to.

When I was thinking up answers to the problem I had planed out putting an oil separator into the system between the engine and the frame condenser. It would have to have good cooling and be mounted in a place where gravity could easily return the oil down the breather tube to the crank case.

I had a design in my head but could find nothing ready made that filled the bill. As I would have to get this thing made and that would be expensive as well as the fact that I couldn't really think of a suitable place to put it I shelved the idea until and unless the steps taken in the above post prove ineffective.

Moving the breather outlet to the timing chest would be an option too.

[johnr]

If you've already been through this, please be patient.  What I'm describing is a straight adaptation of the V11 engine to a 2002 EV frame.  ymmv.

In your last pic I see the breather pipe in the bellhousing.  I see the yellow tape on the vertical end of it up between the cylinders.  On the tonti that pipe connects to a tube in the frame.  The frame itself acts as the condenser.  The tube is in the top frame tube, pointed downward, up near the steering head.  The tube is a lazy S shape.  There should be more little tubes for the head breathers and return line toward the rear of that frame tube.

Correct. Though I think the frame tube is straight, but slopes downward toward the rear.

There is a rimmed-bullet-looking PCV valve that lives in the top of the aforementioned engine pipe, up where the yellow tape is.  That's the check valve system.  If it's not in there or is stuck, you could have a problem.  It often gets stuck up in the hose, so it comes up missing from the pipe.  Be sure it's there.

I have reason to believe that the check valve was left in during the transplant. The Hydro had it but as far as I can recall the V11 does not. 

I can not see what purpose the check valve serves if a PCV valve is added to the the tube going to the air box.   This should provide a negative pressure in the system as well as preventing mayo in the heads etc (which the hydro suffered from)  The check valve in the standard position prevents oil draining back to the engine. It's coming out.

In pic 4 there are two plugs on the bottom of the sump.  The one on the left is the oil return line.  It doesn't need to be what you have in pic1.  You can get a metric banjo setup that will let you run a soft line from there to the frame tube.

We used the (bigger) hydro sump. It only has the one plug.

So get a pcv valve in that rear pipe and run a hose to the front of the frame.  That does the vent.  Get a banjo bolt, banjo, and hose to connect to the rear of the frame tube.  That does the return.  Be sure there are hoses from the head breather spigots to the frame tubes.  Remove the hose from the airbox and route to a catch can.  In the Tonti world this should work.

There are no head breather spigots on the V11. Putting some there is in my list of things to do. There are only two return spigots on the frame (condenser) which double as head breathers on the hydro motor. There is no 3rd one to use as an oil return to the sump.

It is evident with the V11 set up that separate head breathing is not required so the two spigots at the rear of the Frame condenser in effect are returns only.

On the other hand, I may be imagining the entire thing.  Really? no head breathers on a V11?

Nope.

[johnr]

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_california_update_en_de_ne.pdf

The pic posted above shows that the casing is just as high as the cover. Are you not going to still have problems with the height of this even with a different cover?

This same pic shows a breathing system that is the same as the Hydro motor except for the position for it on the engine as it breaths through the timing chest. (better IMHO) It would not be difficult to machine the selected tonti cover to take a spigot for the breather.

The system shown does not appear to have a check valve in it either, at least not one down by the engine.

[johnr]

I think you're going to have more problems than you solve if you remove the pcv valve.  If you really need more return, remember that you don't need the V11 timing cover in a tonti frame.

We used the timing cover from the EV. It has no breather  attached.

Having said that I have taken on board this approach should the mods listed above not prove sufficient.  This would mean though making and fitting a blocking plate to the the current mount for the breather inside the bell housing. That requires removing the gearbox and possibly the engine and at this stage I am less than keen to do that.

[guzzisteve]

I would think you could use the dipstick hole for a breather.
This is an alt if you are using the Vert front cover for the pump.
Use the Norge dipstick tube w/hose attached, that would keep the splash factor down.

[guzziownr]

R.K. I have an extra cover for you if you want to experiment...

[johnr]

Just for your edification RK, here is a pic of the V11 about to be installed.

At this point it has the Hydro engines timing cover and sump.

You can clearly see the breather stub extending out of the bell housing and the pace in the head casting where the oil returns usually go.

[rodekyll]

R.K. I have an extra cover for you if you want to experiment...

I appreciate that.   

I have several junk covers I'm doing cruel things to.   

What I do not have is an oil return fitting for the sump and the hose that attaches to it.  I think an oil cooler fitting and hose would do it, too.  16mmx1.5mm.  I had hoped to use a banjo, but I did some measuring and a standard banjo will not work. 

[rodekyll]

Just for your edification RK, here is a pic of the V11 about to be installed.

At this point it has the Hydro engines timing cover and sump.

You can clearly see the breather stub extending out of the bell housing and the pace in the head casting where the oil returns usually go.

OK -- I think I get it now.  Your theory is that the lack of head breathers + check valve is why the oil is overflowing into the airbox. The return line alone doesn't have the capacity to drain all the oil coming up the breather.  So you need to reduce the oil in the breathing and increase the return side capacity.  Is that right?

[Muzz]

That is as good a summary as any I have heard at this stage. Sound right to you John?

Some of the problem is that we don't definitively know how or what went wrong.

[johnr]

OK -- I think I get it now.  Your theory is that the lack of head breathers + check valve is why the oil is overflowing into the airbox. The return line alone doesn't have the capacity to drain all the oil coming up the breather.  So you need to reduce the oil in the breathing and increase the return side capacity.  Is that right?

Exactly

[pete roper]

This still baffles me a bit as I can see no reason why the set-up we put on shouldn't work . If you're still struggling let's revisit it when I'm over next month John.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Just throwing this out.. the small block does *all* it's venting trough the valve covers. At a casual glance, I don't see why you couldn't do it with a big block, too, if the other methods aren't working out. I, of course could be all wet. 

[johnr]

This still baffles me a bit as I can see no reason why the set-up we put on shouldn't work . If you're still struggling let's revisit it when I'm over next month John.

Looking forward to seeing you and meeting Jude Pete. I'm hoping by then that I'll have the heads machined.

Your offer to bring stuff is much appreciated. I'll send you a PM about that.

My biggest fear is that I'm wrong about all this.