New 2012 Griso Owner - Roller Tappet Issue!!

[El Faziz]

I was so excited to buy my 2012 Tenni Griso with 1300 miles, until I found this issue. May have been better to buy a used 2105 and have it painted green and gotten a brown seat!!

Before anyone gets too angry at me, I've read thru every one of Pete Roper/Vasco DG's posts that I can find. I've looked at the Aprilia and GuzziTech threads. I still have a few points of confusion. Also my body is physically located in northern California and the bike was just delivered to my sister's in Los Angeles. So I can't run out and pull off the valve covers to see if mine was one of the lucky later 2012 that were factory rollerized. So I'm trying to determine some stuff remotely.

1. According to Pete's description of the A,B,C, and D kits in thread "Get Rollerized" ONLY Sport models got the D kit. The A kit was used for 2012 bikes other than sport. However, OhioRider then promptly posted "According to Pete's kit narrative my 2012 Griso needs the D kit" and was not corrected by anyone. Can someone jibe this for me, please? Which kit would my 2012 Griso need? Don't I need the A kit???

2. Has there been further info acquired to suggest that knowing the engine number would indicate whether my 2012 engine already had the roller conversion?? I can get my sister to find it and write it down and I'll post it.

3.  The bike has 1300 miles on it with all the service record history. The first service was done at 843 miles. When was the first servicing due and is mine within that mileage or out far enough that Guzzi won't honor any agreement vis-a-vis paying for the kit and I pay labor, if my tappets are already shredded?

4. If there is no way to tell if the bike is rollerized by engine code, I will fly down there and pull the covers and look, so that I can at least order the right kit and have it ready before I fly down again to have it done before I ride the bike home. Reading of Grisos with tappet wear at 3-6k miles has convinced me that I barely want to fire it up to see if it will start, much less drive it over to the mechanic to change out the tappets.

5. I'm not a Guzzi mechanic and have never owned one, though I've wanted one all my life. When people say just pull the covers off and look, what exactly does this mean? If it means something like
                a.  Pull the outer covers off
                b.  Remove the inner cover part 123kml (You'll need the parts manual to make sure that part is supposed to be in your model)
                c.  Remove the inner cover base plate cover part xvx (be very careful not to let widget springs pop out or you will have to take the entire engine out.)
                d.  Loosen the lash bolts until just BARELY loose and prop up the tappet housing with a shim.
                e.  Carefully using a thin screwdriver in your left hand, move aside the valve oiler tubes, hold a small mirror at 37.5 degrees to horizontal with your right hand, and with a flashlight stuck
                     your mouth of at least 1000 lumens, note the condition of the tappets.

 If it means anything remotely like that, could someone please describe exactly what I need to do to look at my tappets on a 2012 Griso? Because I can't fly down to my sister's with my entire chest full of tools.

And before anyone accuses me of moaning' and puning', I'm not. I'm a brand new proud Guzzi owner who is ecstatic about getting one at long last and felt like the stars were lined up for me when I found a 2012 in Tenni green (my favorite color combo with brown saddle) with almost no miles on it. I'm resigned to paying the grand or two that I might now have to cough up instead of just being able to hop on it and go have fun! And of course I would now be doubly ecstatic if it turns out mine actually has rollers in it.

I know that soon this particular issue will be behind me and I'll be grinning my ass off as I did the couple times I test drove the Griso out on the farm roads near Elk Grove Powersports prior to buying the used one. 

Thanks!! 

PS I'm not telling the about all this because it was hard enough to get her to agree to me getting the bike and still stay with me (I love having her around). I'll sort it all out with $ I've saved in secret piggy bank... 

 





 

[Devildog]

We discussed this last week. Engine no. 13524 was officially the first roller tappet Griso. Although Pete said that wasn't exactly true as a few flat tappets have been recorded with higher engine numbers. Pete has also emphasized that your flat tappets won't fail at your low mileage, you've got some time.

[El Faziz]

Thanks, DevilDog (ex Marine?)

I just called my sister and the engine number is A8 013337, so it sounds like mine is a little too early. I need to go down and pull the covers.

So if anyone can help with me with questions 1, 3, and 4/5, I'd be much obliged.

Jim

[Dilliw]

1. As a 2012 you will almost certainly have the later valve covers and will nneed Kit "A"  http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=71398

2. There is a listing of engine numbers in your earlier thread.  The engine number is on a shiny plate, on the motor, right behind the exhaust "pretzel" and before the "Y" collector.  Look behind all of that piping and you will see it.

3. If you ride it for 7-10k miles it should show plenty of wear for them to accept a warranty claim.  The dealer will have to perform an "inspection" that requires them to remove the cam boxes and photograph them.  Then they will keep your bike until the parts arrive.  Parts will be free and you will pay the dealer labor, a win win!

4. With service history I would wait to 8k-10k miles then try and go the dealer route first.  $450 paid directly to a dealer who needs the work (all Guzzi dealers need service work!).   The labor to do the "inspection" is about the same as to swap out the parts so if it were me I would ride and enjoy until I knew it for sure it will fail.  My experience says 8k is a pretty safe bet.  That's me Others here, especially a dealer, can't give you that advice but since you are asking an idiot living in his mother's basement what he would do...

5. To inspect to see if you have rollers or flats you have to remove the spark plug cover being careful not to break the little red emblem.  Then you need to pull the spark plug cap using the zip tie procedure (instructions are on here).  Unbolt the valve cover and inspect.  STOP THERE!.  There are good pictures on here to easily identify rollers or flats or just take some good pictures and post them here. Assembly in reverse to include dielectric grease so the spark plug cap doesn't stick and probably a spot of glue under the emblem that did indeed break :).

You have a great new toy.  Get ready to enjoy it.  Compared to the regular service my brother does on his Ducati this issue is a piece of cake! 

[lucian]

Review this thread, has clear pictures of the roller tappets visible by simply taking off a valve cover. page 2. Hope you find it has them already.


http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=80953.30

[Dilliw]

Update.  According to the engine number you have flats.  No big deal!


FYI  to others.  AF1 shows Kit B on sale for $730!  I'm guessing if you could just buy the other valve cover gaskets.

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks, DevilDog (ex Marine?)

I just called my sister and the engine number is A8 013337, so it sounds like mine is a little too early. I need to go down and pull the covers.

So if anyone can help with me with questions 1, 3, and 4/5, I'd be much obliged.

For #1. You will NOT need a D kit. My information lists an A kit for a 2012 Griso.
For #3. The cam will not be toast in that many miles. And, in the US, it you have proof of service, even if done yourself, you are covered.
For #4. Ride it home with only 1300 miles on it. Geez, I put over 50,000 miles on mine. Also, if must show signs of wear, or your dealer must be creative, to get parts ordered if there is no wear.
For #5. To see if it is rollers. Pull the spark plug cover. Pull the spark plug cap (use care, easy to damage), Take out four valve cover screws. Look at tappets. Easy.
To actually inspect for wear, becomes more involved.

[RinkRat II]

 Hey there El, Pretty sound advice from Dilliw and Wayne, Don't overthink this or fret about it. Fly to your sis' house,top off the gas, fill up the tires and take a ride up PCH  and enjoy your new bike. It's only 400 miles . 

     Congrats and enjoy!!
      Paul B

[lucian]

I would advise installing rollers BEFORE you have any dlc coating missing. The peace of mind knowing you acted before any of this stuff is traveling around the oil circuit is well worth the price of the upgrade. As shown in the thread, mine had significant wear at just 3,000 miles. Bite the bullet and get it done preemptively. You will also save the costs of flushing the oil cooler , oil pump, dropping and cleaning the sump. Also at 1300 miles I wouldn,t be afraid to ride it home, but I would get it done asap.  Lovely bike enjoy!

[jlburgess]

Just ride it home and don't worry.  Some have been toast but many are not.  I have the flat tappet  upgrade kit on an '09 and the dealer couldn't find any indication of wear after removing the cams and tappets after 13k miles.  Unfortunately for me I had to pay to find that out.  All of the ones Pete has inspected are bad.  I think it's because he lives in Oz and the oil spins CCW going down the galleries. 

[Lannis]

My 2009 8V at 39,000 miles had the conversion done.   The flat tappets were discolored but had not lost any of the hardened material yet, and the valve lash had changed (exhaust) by only .0015 since new on the worst one.

That being said, I know what it's like riding a bike where you KNOW that the fuse is lit and burning, but you have no idea how long it is.   Most people found their fuse to be 5K or 10K or 20K or (mine) 39K miles long, but that's no guarantee at all how long yours is .... I didn't enjoy the experience once I realized I was close, and went ahead and pre-emptively had the conversion done before I started losing material and detected it via the valve lash ....

Lannis

[El Faziz]

Many thanks to all.        The confusion is all cleared up:

"A" kit, engine # not determinative, unknown when wear becomes very noticeable (Lucian at 3k, Wayne at 50k), easy to pop covers off and see if by chance rollers just might be in there. 

Lucian, your fuse metaphor was spot on for how I'd be feeling. Hard to keep that from ticking in the back of my mind every time I got on the bike, especially knowing even the slightest wear will release "diamond like" granules to float around. Also, while this bike only has 1300 miles, it's fresh from the seacoast of Maine, probably as wet and cold a place as any, and since the owner had a big collection of bikes, he probably just rode it around locally on short trips and didn't thrash it too much. In other words, it has probably experienced all the things Pete Roper theorized are the factors for early wear. 

So tomorrow I'll contact Thousand Oaks Powersports and Sean Fader of RTL Moto, both highly recommended by folks on WGC, to see about having it done while I'm down there. I'll dig up that thread where someone suggested using photos of trashed tappets as if they were your own!


My bike sitting in my sis's garage probably thinking I no longer love her...can't wait to go down and caress her and tell her how much I do:




 

[lucian]

Lol, I've been watching the listing of your bike on Maine CL. I live not far from the seller. She's a beauty, your going to love riding it. Best part of being a guzzisti is these folks right here. Also check out the Griso Gehtto, lot's of good info specific to your new bike.
 Welcome to the asylum.

[El Faziz]

Lol, I've been watching the listing of your bike on Maine CL. I live not far from the seller.
 Welcome to the asylum.

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, after reading many of the threads here, I now realize my every move in the transaction was being probably being monitored! 

All kidding aside, the people here sure keep a close watch out for member's welfare and that of the Guzzi world in general, and I'm very glad I took my first foray here into an enthusiast forum. Since I wanted the Tenni, I had to search wide and far to find them. I learned quickly that not only buyers were scammers, but also sellers with professional looking ads. So when I found Paul, I checked his credentials out six ways from Sunday. We talked about the tappet issue as soon as I learned from DilliW that there was one. I also talked to his dealer and the service manager there. Paul hadn't known about the issue, and his dealership was one of many I talked to that said to just watch the tappets for wear.

If it wasn't for this site, I still wouldn't even know about the issue! And I love the straightforward and entertaining characters here.

Did you ever ride with Paul or deal with Seacoast cycle? If you've heard anything untoward, I'd appreciate feedback, just to put it in the "bank of experience." We've talked by phone many times and actually hope to meet at the Quail Moto Gathering in Monterey in May. I really trust him because in my excitement, I'd forgotten I'd already wired him $1k as a deposit and when I sent him the full amount a week later, he immediately called to tell me I'd sent him $1000 too much and promptly sent it back. I've now learned this is typical of most Guzzi owners it seems. We also originally struck a deal that more than covers the tappet change, so though I'm not excited about spending another $1-2k on my sweetheart, I'm not freaking out about it either.

(tried to send the last part by PM but couldn't seem to be able to by email?)

[Nic in Western NYS]

Welcome indeed!  My Ducati was serviced meticulously at Seacoast by its previous owner and it has been a joy to own.  I've only heard great things about them.

[Lannis]

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, after reading many of the threads here, I now realize my every move in the transaction was being probably being monitored! 

I really trust him because in my excitement, I'd forgotten I'd already wired him $1k as a deposit and when I sent him the full amount a week later, he immediately called to tell me I'd sent him $1000 too much and promptly sent it back. I've now learned this is typical of most Guzzi owners it seems.

Honesty and fair dealing being a hallmark of Guzzi owners, yes, very much so.   

Losing track of $1000?   Don't count on that happening with ANY Guzzi owner!!        

You'll soon get the knack of making a nickel squeal along with the rest of us if you hang in here a while ....   

[MGrego]

That being said, I know what it's like riding a bike where you KNOW that the fuse is lit and burning, but you have no idea how long it is.   Most people found their fuse to be 5K or 10K or 20K or (mine) 39K miles long, but that's no guarantee at all how long yours is .... I didn't enjoy the experience once I realized I was close, and went ahead and pre-emptively had the conversion done before I started losing material and detected it via the valve lash ....

Lannis

Lannis, this is how I felt about my '12 Norge with flats, so I did the conversion to rollers at 3,000 miles.  I sleep better now 

[lucian]

El Faziz, seacoast sport cycle is first rate. I have purchased two bikes from them in recent times and have been very happy with how they operate. They are about an hour and a half from me and I ride over there a lot in the summer on Saturday mornings just to drool and see all the bikes come rolling in for first come first serve services .  Great bunch of people and honest sales and service staff. If they cared for your bike you have no worries.

[El Faziz]

Thanks Nic. This was Seacoast in Maine, long way to take your bike for service? Or did you just get sick of snow?  I had an old friend who actually grew up on one of the Sea Islands (I think they extend up to Nor' Calinky (as I've heard it called)) way back when they grew the famous Sea Island cotton, the best in the world. She was a farm girl who went barefoot up to her teens.  Never been to the Deep South cept Louisiana and Florida. I know it's beautiful and hope to someday on my Griso!! Are there still working farms on the islands?

Lannis, I attributed your "fuse" metaphor to Lucian...sorry (I'm anal that way coming from a University setting). As to the $1k, I've made a few crazy screw-ups in my life, some I recovered from, some not so much. Yeah, this is me to myself on a lot of my life decisions    Actually this is pretty good example of my personality, I'll be a hard ass negotiator who'll spend hours wearing down a seller for a few cents less and then accidentally send a grand extra to them!

I've noticed most of the posters are very terse though exceedingly witty in their brevity (paraphrasing Shakespeare). I naturally tend to be gabby and interested in people. Mrs. Faziz  has tried to mellow out my natural inquisitiveness and curiosity about people, citing privacy concepts, but I haven't improved much... 

[Dilliw]

I've noticed most of the posters are very terse though exceedingly witty in their brevity (paraphrasing Shakespeare). I naturally tend to be gabby and interested in people. Mrs. Faziz  has tried to mellow out my natural inquisitiveness and curiosity about people, citing privacy concepts, but I haven't improved much...

You've never met Lannis...

[Nic in Western NYS]

Thanks Nic. This was Seacoast in Maine, long way to take your bike for service? Or did you just get sick of snow?  I had an old friend who actually grew up on one of the Sea Islands (I think they extend up to Nor' Calinky (as I've heard it called)) way back when they grew the famous Sea Island cotton, the best in the world. She was a farm girl who went barefoot up to her teens.  Never been to the Deep South cept Louisiana and Florida. I know it's beautiful and hope to someday on my Griso!! Are there still working farms on the islands?

Hello!  Yes, though Seacoast is in Derry NH, not Maine.  I'm a northeasterner by history, as is my bike.  Local folks have tolerated me well so far.

[ohiorider]

My 2009 8V at 39,000 miles had the conversion done.   The flat tappets were discolored but had not lost any of the hardened material yet, and the valve lash had changed (exhaust) by only .0015 since new on the worst one.

That being said, I know what it's like riding a bike where you KNOW that the fuse is lit and burning, but you have no idea how long it is.   Most people found their fuse to be 5K or 10K or 20K or (mine) 39K miles long, but that's no guarantee at all how long yours is .... I didn't enjoy the experience once I realized I was close, and went ahead and pre-emptively had the conversion done before I started losing material and detected it via the valve lash ....

Lannis

Lannis, I think your 09 had steel tappets without DLC coating.  Think there's any chance that the non-DLC tappets outlasted their DLC counterparts?  It appears you got a decent amount of miles on yours with no ill effects.......

Bob

[pete roper]

The very early 8V's had chilled cast iron tappets, the reason they changed to the forged steel DLC coated ones is because the cast iron ones were, in some places, going tits in very short order. The problem was that the failures weren't solely materials related so the problems continued. The only cure is rollerisation and I honestly believe that looking at the camboxes this was what was originally intended as the tappet bosses are obviously designed for the wider roller tappets. I'd also guess the engineers were overruled by the bean counters.

As for whether any flat tappet 8V will survive all the evidence I've seen, and I've seen as much or more than most people, is that there is a 100% attrition rate. Some take longer to fail catastrophically than others but by 20,000km EVERY engine I've been into has had significant wear.

I'll reiterate the point that they don't start getting noisy, nor do the valve clearances change appreciably, until all or nearly all of the coating has flaked off the tappet face. Just because your bike isn't noisy doesn't mean it isn't destroying itself.

Pete

[Lannis]

Lannis, I think your 09 had steel tappets without DLC coating.  Think there's any chance that the non-DLC tappets outlasted their DLC counterparts?  It appears you got a decent amount of miles on yours with no ill effects.......

Bob

Now THAT I don't know ... I was assuming DLC but that's only because I'd never heard that some might have steel tappets .... the last digits of my VIN are 112497 so maybe one of the smart guys can figure it out from that.   

When I saw the tappets upon removal, I was very happy that there was no "visible" wear, just some discoloration that looked similar to what you get from overheated steel.   As I mentioned, the valve clearances had not changed significantly since initial service ...

Lannis

[Lannis]

Actually this is pretty good example of my personality, I'll be a hard ass negotiator who'll spend hours wearing down a seller for a few cents less and then accidentally send a grand extra to them!

Well, it's good you're aware of it and can thus avoid future problems.     

But be warned in time.   Just wait till the next WildGuzzi Oil Thread, in which otherwise rational Guzzisti will brag "Look, I found EconoWorld 30w40 oil $.15 a quart cheaper than the 10W60 oil that the factory specifies in my bike!   I can't wait to put it in my $15,000 motorcycle and see what happens!"

Penny wise, pound foolish as they used to say!   

Lannis

[El Faziz]

Thanks everyone for your perspectives. I've decided peace of mind is best for me and am going to suck it up; I've authorized Thousand Oaks Powersports (15 minutes from my sis's) to go pick it up and verify no rollers and order the correct kit (most likely A). A couple people on one of my own threads (I think) told me they were excellent. I'll probably have to pay for the kit myself as there is unlikely to be much wear but c'est la vie.

I just re-read Get Rollered and saw a post I missed where Pete said he originally had the A and D kits swapped in his narrative and edited it, so OhioRider wasn't incorrect in his own post.

It's been very interesting after reading all these tappet threads to see the long history of the problem with the clearer picture of the probable causes slowly coming to light.

Per Pete’s advice, I’ll also get the swingarm bearings and shock linkage needles lubed.

It sounds like even though the tappets will be changed, I have to have further mods made to make the bike run optimally?? Ie, changing the mapping around? I saw talk about the mapping and with my poor brain reeling from sorting out tappet stuff couldn't divert any cranial amperage that way. Don't know if I can yet without a few days vacation.   

Not trying to be lazy, but could some kind soul post an itemized wish list for things to be checked/done on a used 2012 Griso that just came into into one's hands? DilliW, saw you had such a list for a new owner in all my thread travels but couldn't find it again.

Jim

   

[Tom H]

Good choice getting the roller confirmed or installed. It sounds like you plan to keep it for awhile, so it will be worth it.

Tom

[pete roper]

Apart from the top end and the shock linkage and swingarm bearings as long as it is tuned properly there shouldn't be anything much else you *Need* to do to it. The GRS8V-03 map that you have is fairly pedestrian but it isn't awful like the earlier factory iterations. It can be improved upon immensely but it isn't compulsory. I would strongly advise against fitting shitty aftermarket air filters or 'Open' pipes in pursuit of more performance, it won't work. There are a host of prettier, lighter, aftermarket pipes available but they will all perform better with a dB killer installed due to the design of the heads and the cam timing and profiles.add on tuning 'Widgets' like sensor foolers and Power Commanders are un-necessary and have the potential to do a lot of harm. Avoid.

In stock form the Griso is under sprung and over damped. If you want to spend money on stuff replacing or getting the original suspension tuned will pay great dividends. Another worthwhile improvement is replacing the FF brake pads supplied with the bike with HH ones, especially at the front.

In the last ten years the Griso platform was the closest thing the factory produced to a 'Sportsbike'. Like many prior models it punches well above its weight. It's spec sheet may not be the most inspiring but they have a strong and fanatical following and it's a bike that engenders great loyalty. Griso isn't for everyone though. Liking it isn't obligatory. If you find it doesn't speak to you at least if you have done the required work you can sell it on with a clear conscience knowing you aren't dumping some other poor sod in the shit.

Pete

[kingoffleece]

Good on ya, mate.
You'll forget about the expense soon enough and have the bike for a long time.
Wish I had a Green Tenni.

[ohiorider]

The very early 8V's had chilled cast iron tappets, the reason they changed to the forged steel DLC coated ones is because the cast iron ones were, in some places, going tits in very short order. The problem was that the failures weren't solely materials related so the problems continued. The only cure is rollerisation and I honestly believe that looking at the camboxes this was what was originally intended as the tappet bosses are obviously designed for the wider roller tappets. I'd also guess the engineers were overruled by the bean counters.

As for whether any flat tappet 8V will survive all the evidence I've seen, and I've seen as much or more than most people, is that there is a 100% attrition rate. Some take longer to fail catastrophically than others but by 20,000km EVERY engine I've been into has had significant wear.

I'll reiterate the point that they don't start getting noisy, nor do the valve clearances change appreciably, until all or nearly all of the coating has flaked off the tappet face. Just because your bike isn't noisy doesn't mean it isn't destroying itself.

Pete

Pete, what's your thoughts on the cause of the premature wear on the tappets, whether they're DLC coated or not? 

I've conjectured that perhaps the engineers got the leverage wrong, ie, it simply took too much pressure for the cam lobe and tappet to compress the valve springs.  Flat tappets were (and probably are still) used to actuate rockers and valves on a variety of engines.  Just a thought.

Bob