Author Topic: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke  (Read 3283 times)

Offline 93spada

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I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« on: February 25, 2017, 09:48:15 AM »
Hi Folks
I screwed up bad!!!! All for a main seal weep.

We Put on official Guzzi puller.
Applied slight pressure with tool. No movement.
Added more pressure and tapped tightening bolt with lead hammer. No movement.
Rapped flange with rubber mallet and tapped bolt again.
Added some heat around outside of casing (not on flange) and repeat. No Movement,
Added a little more pressure and ........MOVEMENT!!!!!   The flange ear near the breather tube broke off.
After I got done with MY movement,
we tried a 3 jaw puller around the outside of the flange with more heat and tapping and rapping. No movement.
My next thought is map gas heat and dry ice to flange.
Also thought about drilling and tapping the flange and going again but if the three jaw didn't work (was really nervous so didn't apply enough pressure to break the flange again).

Please help me with your considerable wisdom.
Thanks again Paul


 
PJM

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2017, 10:00:50 AM »
I hate when that happens.  :sad: Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside.

For some reason that era of Guzzis seem to have the tightest fitting rear main bearings.

Fortunately, the financial pain isn't as bad as it used to be. I remember when a rear main bearing was $300, now they're less than half of that.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_126&products_id=188
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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2017, 10:01:33 AM »
Back up a minute,,,,
Why are you removing the bearing? That is not necessary to replace the seal.
Hunter
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Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2017, 10:16:23 AM »
If all else fails,,,,,,,Get a bigger hammer!!!! For some reason I looked at the cost before we started. probably shouldn't have!
Thanks

Hunter,
As we got a closer look at the weeping, it also looked like some from around the flange.
Also During the initial engine evaluation, found that the ball in the breather had stuck in the bottom and was releasing, probably adding pressure to the inside. Found it did not have the oring in the bottom.
Figured that we should replace the gasket also.
My bro said that he has pulled 5 or 6 and they never stuck that bad.

Hind sight is 20/20.
Should have just replaced breather and let it go at that!!!!

Thanks
Paul
PJM

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2017, 10:51:58 AM »
Also During the initial engine evaluation, found that the ball in the breather had stuck in the bottom and was releasing, probably adding pressure to the inside. Found it did not have the oring in the bottom.

Not all of the ball-type check valves have an o-ring in the bottom. I prefer the ones that don't in fact - it's all too easy for the o-ring to become dislodged from it's proper position.
Charlie
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Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2017, 10:59:31 AM »
Not all of the ball-type check valves have an o-ring in the bottom. I prefer the ones that don't in fact - it's all too easy for the o-ring to become dislodged from it's proper position.

I thought about that when the new one came and the oring was bunched up and not seated.
Also thought about adding small amount of some sort of adhesive to keep it in place.
Have not pulled the ring out to see if it works ok without.
PJM

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2017, 12:12:41 PM »
I thought about that when the new one came and the oring was bunched up and not seated.
Also thought about adding small amount of some sort of adhesive to keep it in place.
Have not pulled the ring out to see if it works ok without.

I removed the o-ring from one I just installed in a customer's bike. Works just fine without.
Charlie
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Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2017, 01:31:54 PM »
I removed the o-ring from one I just installed in a customer's bike. Works just fine without.

Thanks
Will do.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2017, 01:39:43 PM »
I hate when that happens.  :sad: Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside.

For some reason that era of Guzzis seem to have the tightest fitting rear main bearings.

Fortunately, the financial pain isn't as bad as it used to be. I remember when a rear main bearing was $300, now they're less than half of that.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_126&products_id=188

Thinking more about it I think I want to do a combo...3 jaw and big stick. that might keep it from jacking to the side and pinching.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2017, 12:17:30 PM »
Soooo.... My saga continues.
Pulled the pan, put on the three jaw, kept tightening and beating from the bottom and rapping on the puller until the wood splintered and I thought I would drive the crank out the front case. No budge and no break of the flange.

Any ideas????
Some of our thoughts;
1) Shim the crank weights against the inner case, 3 jaw puller, heat the case, drop dry ice or freeze with chewing gum remover on the flange. Beat and pull again.
2) Cut the webbing in the flange and then cut thru flange to where the ear broke until we almost hit the case wall. Hope it collapses and breaks out or something.
3) Machine shop and Bridgeport or?? and let them screw it up.

Valuable lesson learned!!! IF IT AINT BROKE!!!!!
Thanks for any and all input.
Even pokes in the eyes with sharp sticks will be ok. All my "friends" spent yesterday doing that.
Paul



PJM

Offline rodekyll

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2017, 12:32:16 PM »
My last ditch advice would be to remove the timing gear from the crankshaft and remove the rods.  Set the engine nose up and use the crank as a drift to knock the flange out.

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2017, 12:41:02 PM »
It's been years since I've done one, but aren't two of the bolt holes tapped? If so, you should be able to run a bolt in them and jack the bearing carrier out.
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Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2017, 01:13:03 PM »
My last ditch advice would be to remove the timing gear from the crankshaft and remove the rods.  Set the engine nose up and use the crank as a drift to knock the flange out.

Thank you
I would agree, last ditch.
It may come to that.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2017, 01:20:01 PM »
It's been years since I've done one, but aren't two of the bolt holes tapped? If so, you should be able to run a bolt in them and jack the bearing carrier out.

Unfortunately, used the official Guzzi puller and it broke off one ears of the 2 tapped holes. That's why I went after the 3 jaw.
I could try to use the one left. it might jack it sideways a bit but if it pops the seal? then I could go back to the 3 jaw.
Looked to see if we could tap more holes in the bolt hole ears but it bottoms on the case before getting enough threads to jack.
PJM

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2017, 01:31:35 PM »
"Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside."
Good advice from Charlie
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Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2017, 01:43:40 PM »
"Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside."
Good advice from Charlie

I agree Steve.
Tried that this am.
Splintered the wood beating on it with a 2# lead drilling hammer.
Have to go to oak, it was pine.
I think I am going to try one more time with 3 jaw, heat the case, hose the flange with freeze type gum remove and a pc of oak to beat it from the inside.
PJM

Offline swooshdave

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2017, 01:55:48 PM »
I agree Steve.
Tried that this am.
Splintered the wood beating on it with a 2# lead drilling hammer.
Have to go to oak, it was pine.
I think I am going to try one more time with 3 jaw, heat the case, hose the flange with freeze type gum remove and a pc of oak to beat it from the inside.

https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05002-Freeze-Off-Super-Penetrant/dp/B000TFTH00/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2017, 03:00:33 PM »



Yes there are and they will pull nice even pressure on the bearing if you go nice and easy.

I think that drilling and taping another hole (s) would work. If it were me I would try it rather than beating the thing with a hammer. (ugh). I know its a tractor engine ...but.

BTDT.

I had one that was so stuck, that I actually drilled a hole and cut a slot outwards *almost* to the engine case. That let it collapse enough to come out finally. WTH the factory stuck it in there with, I'll never know.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2017, 03:33:18 PM »
The 1200 breva book says to heat the engine case with some special heater thing to properly install the camshaft.  Not necessary.  I think the passage belonged in the flange install segment.  Here it seems necessary.  So maybe liberal application of a high-powered heat gun might help.  Really liberal.

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2017, 03:52:38 PM »



Yes there are and they will pull nice even pressure on the bearing if you go nice and easy.

I think that drilling and taping another hole (s) would work. If it were me I would try it rather than beating the thing with a hammer. (ugh). I know its a tractor engine ...but.

BTDT.

I agree drilling and tapping more holes is another solution. I was hoping to not drill and get aluminum bits thru the case compartment.
I will probably have to strip down internals/externals as far as possible before drilling.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2017, 03:54:44 PM »
https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05002-Freeze-Off-Super-Penetrant/dp/B000TFTH00/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Saw that at Ace hardware. bought it and tried it. maybe a better penetrant but it is not cold. It does not freeze or really chill metal.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2017, 03:56:49 PM »
I had one that was so stuck, that I actually drilled a hole and cut a slot outwards *almost* to the engine case. That let it collapse enough to come out finally. WTH the factory stuck it in there with, I'll never know.

I think that is going to be the final attempt.
I really don't want to tear it all the way down.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2017, 04:02:10 PM »
The 1200 breva book says to heat the engine case with some special heater thing to properly install the camshaft.  Not necessary.  I think the passage belonged in the flange install segment.  Here it seems necessary.  So maybe liberal application of a high-powered heat gun might help.  Really liberal.

I think that will be my last attempt before complete teardown to cut or drill
3 jaw on flange, Map gas on the outer sleeve of the case, chewing gum freezer on middle of flange then crank until it comes out or breaks the flange. I am still nervous about pushing the crank out the front of the case.
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2017, 05:51:25 PM »
The loading on the flange is better ???with screwing the bolts in and having them push the flange than with a puller. At least the pressure can be applied very evenly.(and slowly and in you situation 3 bolts might be a good idea.)

Maybe not any more force than a puller, but in the right direction and you can load very slowly and gently tap the end of the crank as you increase the load.
A bit of heat  with a good air heat gun would probably help.

Not that I'm more knowledge than anyone else but have used this method with success. Good shop vac as you drill and tap??

All good ideas. Thanks
Wrap the guts inside the case with oily rags to catch drilling bits. Vacuum is great idea. hadn't been there yet.
 We were thinking  just drilling and using nuts and bolt so don't have to pick out more tap bits. I think I can get nuts on the 3 bolts from the inside. The outside flange struts?fins line up to the inside enough to get the bolts all the way thru.
The only issues might be getting all the nuts on same # of turns to keep pull even.

All very frustrating just trying to do preventive maint!!!
PJM

Offline wymple

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2017, 06:04:21 PM »
Did you sweet talk it, or were you just cussing thru the whole deal? You do realize it makes a difference?
No trees were harmed by the conveyance of this message, but a lot of electrons were seriously disturbed.

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2017, 06:06:46 PM »
All good ideas. Thanks
Wrap the guts inside the case with oily rags to catch drilling bits. Vacuum is great idea. hadn't been there yet.
 We were thinking  just drilling and using nuts and bolt so don't have to pick out more tap bits. I think I can get nuts on the 3 bolts from the inside. The outside flange struts?fins line up to the inside enough to get the bolts all the way thru.
The only issues might be getting all the nuts on same # of turns to keep pull even.

All very frustrating just trying to do preventive maint!!!


Only the two bottom bolts go all the way thru to the inside of the case so most(all) of the tailings can be on the outside of the case.(just don't pick those two!)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 06:08:17 PM by kirby1923 »

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2017, 06:18:17 PM »
Did you sweet talk it, or were you just cussing thru the whole deal? You do realize it makes a difference?

an Italian opera was on the radio when the flange broke. Does that count as sweet talk????
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2017, 06:24:48 PM »

Only the two bottom bolts go all the way thru to the inside of the case so most(all) of the tailings can be on the outside of the case.(just don't pick those two!)

I just re-read your post.
One of the tapped flange ears broke off. The one near the breather. only one left is tapped.
 I cant tap the others because there is not enough depth to get the tap to clear the flange and not hit the case.
Did I misunderstand?
PJM

Online pete roper

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2017, 07:25:41 PM »
If it's being this much of a bastard I'd just accept you're going to have to get the rods out, (leave the Pistons in the barrels.) then stand it on its bell housing in a press and use the crank as a drift and press the bugger out. Make sure you're ready to catch it when it comes out, the crank is heavy, and make sure the nose of the crank and woodruff key don't damage the front main.

Pete

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: I screwed up!!! SPIII Main bearing flange broke
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2017, 07:35:21 PM »
If you have a bottom tap or are willing to make one, you could tap all the holes as far as the tap will go. Then be creative by grinding, turning etc. down the first couple of threads on the bolts to under the minor diameter of the threads. Run all the bolts in, and slowly tighten each in a cross pattern. "Probably" it will break loose. Once it breaks loose using this method, you'll "probably" be able to get it out. That's all I've got. If that doesn't work, you'll have to use the crank as a battering ram.  :shocked: :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

 


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