Author Topic: Crankshaft seizure problems with V7 II'S  (Read 24997 times)

Offline leafman60

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Crankshaft seizure problems with V7 II'S
« on: February 28, 2017, 07:10:05 AM »
From a very knowledgeable source, a renowned Guzzi dealer mechanic, I have learned that the "new" 6-speed V7's are showing some severe problems with the factory set-up of the crankshaft inside the crankcase.

Apparently Guzzi is replacing engines and some dealers have already swapped out 5 or 6 motors. 

Has anyone experienced this snafu?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 01:58:03 PM by oldbike54 »

Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 07:19:32 AM »
It's been covered here and elsewhere.  Some V7II engines were assembled with a missing thrust washer/bearing at the crankshaft, and those bikes exhibit an unstable clutch adjustment, due to the crankshaft eating its way rearward through the soft aluminum crankcase casting.  Although I haven't come across any official announcement, dealers apparently have been informed of the problem and are replacing the defective engines on warranty.  We currently don't know how common/rare the problem is, I'm just glad it doesn't affect my V7II Stone, which has almost 14,000 happy miles on it.
Current: 2016 V7II Stone
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Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 07:24:43 AM »
From a very knowledgeable source, a renowned Guzzi dealer mechanic, I have learned that the "new" 6-speed V7's are showing some sever problems with the factory set-up of the crankshaft inside the crankcase.

Apparently Guzzi is replacing engines and some dealers have already swapped out 5 or 6 motors. 

Has anyone experienced this snafu?

Is first april coming sooner this year? :grin: No, really, what are the "problems"?
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 07:29:18 AM »
It's been covered here and elsewhere.  Some V7II engines were assembled with a missing thrust washer/bearing at the crankshaft, and those bikes exhibit an unstable clutch adjustment, due to the crankshaft eating its way rearward through the soft aluminum crankcase casting.  Although I haven't come across any official announcement, dealers apparently have been informed of the problem and are replacing the defective engines on warranty.  We currently don't know how common/rare the problem is, I'm just glad it doesn't affect my V7II Stone, which has almost 14,000 happy miles on it.

I may have misunderstood but the way it way explained to me is that some engines, even with the thrust washer, were showing problems.


Ahhh- I found a thread from last year.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84221.0;nowap

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« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 07:34:56 AM by leafman60 »

Online Kev m

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 08:10:41 AM »
I'd be curious to hear from a dealer. There are threads here and on Guzzitech.

I initially understood it as being explained by missing thrust washers.

But I've also heard others explain thrust has always been a potential issue on the smallblocks and that oiling was improved over the years for that reason.

Now I thought it was just a case that instances of incorrect assembly showed up by the ability to adjust the clutch slowly disappearing as the crankshaft literally moved back toward the clutch in the block because of the lack of thrust washers.

But I might have heard some speculation (or maybe this was in my own head) that incorrect adjustment of the clutch (insufficient play, leaving too much preload on the clutch itself) was effecting the crankshaft even if the correct thrust washers were in play? That would seem to be a stretch, I would think it would just damage the clutch from slipping over time.

If that speculation is bunk, then I would think improper assembly (missing or a problem with the thrust washers would be to blame and nothing more).

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Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 08:21:31 AM »
Can clutch be adjusted properly if there is no thrust washer? I would assume that wire becomes to long otherwise...
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Online Kev m

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 08:33:57 AM »
Can clutch be adjusted properly if there is no thrust washer? I would assume that wire becomes to long otherwise...

If I'm picturing this properly, if there's no thrust washer (we're talking on the crankshaft) the crankshaft itself moves backwards toward the clutch as it chews into the block over the first few hundred, maybe thousand miles. When that happens it sounds like there's no physical way for the clutch to get enough throw to properly release anymore.

But perhaps someone who has actually experienced it or better seen the smallblock motor torn down can clarify.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 08:34:10 AM »
We have a very knowledgeable Board member who can give details on this.  Maybe he will speak up.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 09:42:09 AM »
Yes, the issue is ongoing. Piaggio is getting to the heart of this but problem bikes are still coming over cross the pond. Could be ones sitting on the showroom floor from 6mo ago now sold. Some dealers have had a few bad ones, some more than a few. Not to worry they'll be replaced under warranty.
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Online Kev m

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 10:01:54 AM »
Yes, the issue is ongoing. Piaggio is getting to the heart of this but problem bikes are still coming over cross the pond. Could be ones sitting on the showroom floor from 6mo ago now sold. Some dealers have had a few bad ones, some more than a few. Not to worry they'll be replaced under warranty.

So is it all a case of improper engine assembly?
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Offline Mr Pootle

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 10:05:06 AM »
What sort of mileage do you need to do before the problem manifests itself?

Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 10:09:42 AM »
This is the best I found in the service manual..


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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 11:52:23 AM »
What sort of mileage do you need to do before the problem manifests itself?
Problem happens right away some under 3000Kmi.
So is it all a case of improper engine assembly?
I have no idea if sealer is getting in rear main oiling holes during block assembly or if one of the crank thrust pads is falling out on assembly( the later happened in mid 80's).

I'm sure that the Piaggio has pulled the bad blocks apart to look at them and sort it out. I have not inspected one.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 12:41:28 PM »
I have no idea if sealer is getting in rear main oiling holes during block assembly or if one of the crank thrust pads is falling out on assembly( the later happened in mid 80's).

I'm sure that the Piaggio has pulled the bad blocks apart to look at them and sort it out. I have not inspected one.

But you believe it's an assembly problem of some sort and not something that could be effected by say mal-adjustment of the clutch or some PDI related item. I was assuming it was an assembly problem but started to see some (probably panicked speculation, but couldn't see how it would occur). Just checking.
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Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 01:06:27 PM »
This is the best I found in the service manual..



Yes, it's those little half-circular thingies that go on either side of the rear main bearing.  If one got left out or fell out, there would be nothing to prevent the crankshaft from grinding against the crankcase casting.
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Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 01:44:59 PM »
Yeah, I also thought that one of these are potential problem. I am re-uploading this pic, because apparently it can't be opened (imgbb.com appears to be down).

Edit: I am looking at this shema... How is possible that crankshaft moves towards clutch if it is fixed vertically with chain in front and two connecting rods in between?? Now that doesn't make sense...

« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 03:59:13 PM by waxi »
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 06:05:18 PM »
Timing chain lets it flex somewhat. It will keep going until it trash's the pistons & rods too. Crank & rods will move on wrist pins till it gets to the end of the cut out on barrel sleeve. I had one go this far in the 80's.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 06:41:36 PM »
Thanks for posting, Steve.  I was hoping you'd weigh in on this.

Having produced this basic engine for so many years, I am amazed that their quality control could allow something like this to occur.


*** edit**  Why did I make such a comment?  In reality, I am not amazed.
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« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 06:44:02 PM by leafman60 »

Offline voncrump

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2017, 12:16:21 AM »
Gidday all. I would advise V711 owners and any other Moto Guzzi owners to shift the gearbox into neutral as often as you can. DON'T sit at the traffic lights with the bike in gear. The combination of thrust and engine idle speed lowered oil pressure could load and stress the thrust enough to vapourise the oil out of the thrust bearing. Picture it in your imagination as you sit at the lights for 3 or 4 minutes. The V711 is very easy to shift into neutral and when you do do have to put it into first gear when the light goes green there is very little noise or mechanical jolt. I had a friend around to visit and when he put his CB1000RR into first I thought someone was shooting at me. The big Honda gives a loud clack and the bike jumps through the drive line. The V711 is noiseless if you pull the clutch and wait for a second or two. For those who disagree with my theory think about this. They will fail if the clutch is held in for an extended period of time. The question is how much time? Don't even try to find out.
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Offline redhawk47

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Re: Problems With 6
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 12:38:56 AM »
My 2016 V7II Stone had this failure. Moto Guzzi and my dealer replaced the engine, under warranty, in less than two weeks. The only downside was that I had to go thru engine break-in again.

The problem will show up before it is time for first service at 600 miles. By 300 miles my clutch was dragging and I adjusted the cable at the lever. Another 100 miles and it needed adjustment again - but there wasn't enough adjustment at the lever so I did it at the engine end. I thought it was new cable stretch. When I took it in for first service I mention this to the service manager. He said "Oh, there are a few things we need to check." He called the next day and said "I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that we drained the oil and there was a lot of metal in it. The good news is that you are getting a new engine, under warranty."

There have been about a half dozen reports by owners of this issue on the various forums.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 12:39:56 AM by redhawk47 »
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Offline voncrump

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 12:47:46 AM »
It seems that the main cause of failures is thrust washers totally missing from the engine, As in never assembled properly. Or incorrect adjustment of the clutch causing the thrust to be loaded constantly. Don't take any risk and shift into neutral at the lights.
Cheers, voncrump
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 01:14:39 AM »
Don't take any risk and shift into neutral at the lights.
Cheers, voncrump

Good point. To me the Thorington bearing they use on the Breva does not look over large, Even the 5 speeders go in to neutral easily if the bike is moving slightly. My clutch has hardly ever needed adjustment in something like 22,000 miles.
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Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2017, 01:20:31 AM »
I'm just thankfull that my 2015 V7 with 2500km doesn't have this problems. Yet. No clutch adjustment from kilometer zero. :bow:

Don't take any risk and shift into neutral at the lights.
Cheers, voncrump

I believe this is recommended practice for all clutches in all vehicles (but I'm sure driving school is not telling this to new candidates).
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Online pat80flh

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2017, 04:08:51 AM »
As an old Shovelhead rider, you'd always want to get it into neutral while still moving, it was very difficult to find neutral at a dead stop. Leaving the clutch pulled in at a light would fatigue your arm. Having the bike in neutral would also help if you got tapped from behind and your arms knocked off the bars, at least the bike won't launch.

I've heard a few kids tell me they were taught to leave the bike in gear, so they could watch the mirrors and plan an escape if it looked like they were about to get rear ended.

Clutch throwout bearings have gotten cheesier over the years on a lot of vehicles, and they are loaded when the clutch is disengaged, so having the vehicle in neutral would result in less wear on the throwout bearing. 
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Offline mtiberio

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2017, 06:07:37 AM »
I had a private conversation with a dealer a few months ago, and learned about this issue. He had a pile of V7 motors collecting dust in the side of his shop, it seems Piaggio doesn't want the old motors back. There will certainly be an endless supply of lightly used cylinder heads, cylinders and pistons available for these bike until the end of time...

I wouldn't get all worked up about this folks. Piaggio is taking care of the customers, and the dealers are getting really good at crabbing the small tonti frames...

Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2017, 06:33:53 AM »
...I wouldn't get all worked up about this folks. Piaggio is taking care of the customers, and the dealers are getting really good at crabbing the small tonti frames...
Nonetheless, it would be nice if Piaggio would go public with the problem, and specify which VIN numbers might be affected.  I'm pretty sure that if this issue were to occur with an automobile, the manufacturer would be under some legal obligation to do the same, and probably issue an official recall.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2017, 07:32:23 AM »
Question.

When they replace the motor, do you then have a motor number that doesn't match the frame?  Or, do they no longer use that system?

Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2017, 07:44:45 AM »
Question.

When they replace the motor, do you then have a motor number that doesn't match the frame?  Or, do they no longer use that system?
The (original) engine on my V7II Stone has a different, and shorter, number than the VIN/chassis/frame number.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 08:05:58 AM by sib »
Current: 2016 V7II Stone
Previous: 2013 V7 Stone
Several decades ago: 1962? Honda CB77 Super Hawk

Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2017, 08:07:13 AM »
Nonetheless, it would be nice if Piaggio would go public with the problem, and specify which VIN numbers might be affected.  I'm pretty sure that if this issue were to occur with an automobile, the manufacturer would be under some legal obligation to do the same, and probably issue an official recall.

I wonder if they even know which engines are affected (how could you, if one forget to insert washers on the assembly line?). Unless on some point they decided that thrust washer is no longer needed.

You can always try here: http://static.piaggio.com/recall/form-motoguzzi_en.html
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Offline jpv7

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2017, 08:35:28 AM »
I adjusted my clutch play at the lever right after picking up my V7ii Special (yes, it started to drag after fulling warming up).  Once done properly, I have not touched it in over 5000 miles.  So I'm assuming this motor is ok.

 

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