Stelvio ! SERVICE Indicator

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

I'm working on diagnosing an issue on my '12 Stelvio, and hoping that others with more experience in this area might be able to provide input. 

I have just reinstalled the bodywork on my Stelvio after having it off over the winter working on a few improvements.  When back together, I fired the engine up, and it immediately ran very well, but within a moment, I got the large "! SERVICE" indicator on the bottom of the dash that blots our everything else, and makes it tough to check diagnostics on the dash.  Cycling the key or removing power at the battery has no effect as the problem keeps coming up immediately after starting.  Naturally, I didn't want to run the engine for very long.

As it is very difficult to get into diagnostics under these circumstances, the next natural step was to connect Guzzidiag to see if any codes were showing there, and there was just one old code:  P0170 : No Signal.  Nothing current.  Clearing the codes caused this to go away, but it returned as soon as the engine was started (not with just the key on, though).  When the code returns, Guzzidiag always shows it as an old code, not a current one, so it seems that it is actually associated with starting routine.  Battery voltage is showing as 12.8 at rest, and 13.5 (I think that is what it was) when running.  When starting, the starter doesn't seem to struggle, and repetitive starts are fine.

I have not yet been able to find a list of what the codes mean, but I'm suspecting that this might be indicting a ECU connection error.  Does anyone have a list of codes?  I have checked the owner and service manuals, and haven't found them in this format yet (those displayed on the dash are listed, but don't match this code). 

When running the engine briefly, I noticed strange behavior in Guzzidiag.  With just the key on, all of the measurements seem fine.  However, once started, some of the values appear to be "off", such as voltage showing 5.2V sometimes, slightly different others, no movement in RPM, basically like it is frozen.  Disconnecting (within the application menu), shutting off the ignition and reconnecting without starting the engine returns normal operation.  However, problems reappear as soon as the bike is started.

I'm sure that this problem is self-induced from something I have done over the winter, so I am going back over that now.  First change was to remove the Motobits risers I had on there and replace them with Rox risers that give a bit more lift.  This required re-routing of the cables behind the fork tubes, but nothing needed to be disconnected.  In addition, I took the preemptive step of replacing all the Bosch-style 5-pin relays with actual Bosch 5-pin relays (rather than the factory Tyco units).  Other than that, I changed out the battery maintainer/charger connector for another type that fits my new charger (only connected to battery), and removed the power harness for my heated jacket (was only connected to the battery). 

I did not disconnect the ECU or the dash at any time, but I was working in that area when positioning the bars in the new risers, etc. 

I'll keep at this, but thought I would check to see if anyone had encountered similar in the past.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Hmm, it's currently 15C and sunny, so I think I will select another bike and go for a ride first.   

Cheers,
Shaun

[guzzisteve]

Are the turn signals plugged into loom?

[smdl]

Hi, Steve.

At the moment, one is and one isn't as I pulled one of the lowers off.  However, both were connected when the problem first occurred.  Can this really cause that large of a problem?  I have forgotten to connect one or the other on several occasions, and definitely see the bulb disconnected warning, but haven't seen the general error before.

Thanks for your help.
Shaun

[guzzisteve]

How bout the key transponder.

[smdl]

I'll check.  I was working in that are when lifting the upper triple clamp.  Would I be able to start the engine without that?

Thanks again.

Shaun

[smdl]

Just traced the wire that comes straight down off the outer ring of the ignition switch, and that seems fine (connected near the front of the fairing under the headlights).  The larger bundle that comes our of the ignition switch sideways is tougher to trace, but it seems to be connected and winds down in behind the steering neck.  Am I looking at the right things?

Thanks,
Shaun

[twowings]

FWIW, on my '08 Norge a turn-signal lamp failure will trigger the service light...

[smdl]

Thanks.  Yes, I'm aware of that situation, and have seen it several times if I forget to reconnect a bulb.after having the lowers off.  This is much different in that it is a major ! SERVICE indicator, which overrides all of the more minor service issues like the bulbs.  Also, both bulbs were connected when the fault oringinally occurred.

Thanks for the thought, though.  All are appreciated.

Shaun

[twowings]

You didn't just wash it, did you? Water in the connectors?

I'm going on the assumption it isn't due for service mileage-wise...

[Kiwi Dave]

As it is very difficult to get into diagnostics under these circumstances, the next natural step was to connect Guzzidiag to see if any codes were showing there, and there was just one old code:  P0170 : No Signal. 

I have not yet been able to find a list of what the codes mean, but I'm suspecting that this might be indicting a ECU connection error.  Does anyone have a list of codes?  I have checked the owner and service manuals, and haven't found them in this format yet (those displayed on the dash are listed, but don't match this code). 

I doubt if would apply to a Stelvio, but for a California 1400 code P0170 indicates   -Starter switch - shorted to positive / open circuit, shorted to negative.  Same for an Aprilia Dorsoduro 1200.  Since they're in the same family, it might be a straw to clutch on to.

[smdl]

Thanks, guys.  No, haven't washed it yet, so shouldn't be that. 

I did manage to get the diagnostics through the dash to work, though, and it came up with:

ECU Error Code 45 Relay starter C.C. Gnd

I wonder if that's the Start Up Relay or the Start Up Maintenance Relay?  Regardless, this makes sense as I was pulling and checking all the relays while the bodywork was off.  Will go back and check those now. 

Thanks,
Shaun

[smdl]

I doubt if would apply to a Stelvio, but for a California 1400 code P0170 indicates   -Starter switch - shorted to positive / open circuit, shorted to negative.  Same for an Aprilia Dorsoduro 1200.  Since they're in the same family, it might be a straw to clutch on to.

Thanks, Dave. 

Makes sense for those two bikes, as they seem to use the same ECU (7SM).  Not sure if the messages are the same for the 5AM.

I wish I could find a list of the 5AM codes that can be read through Guzzidiag.  I'm sure they are easily available somewhere, but I haven't been able to find them yet.  At least I got the code from the dash finally.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Kiwi Dave]

I wish I could find a list of the 5AM codes that can be read through Guzzidiag.

ECU Error Code 10 Error throttle valve C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 11 throttle valve C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 14 Engine temperature C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 15 Engine temperature C.C Gnd
ECU Error Code 16 Air temperature C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 17 Air temperature C.C Gnd
ECU Error Code 20 Low battery
ECU Error Code 21 Lambda sensor (O2 Sensor in exhaust)
ECU Error Code 22 Ignition coil 1 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 23 Ignition coil 1 C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 24 Ignition coil 2 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 25 Ignition coil 2 C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 26 Injector 1 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 27 Injector 1 C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 30 Injector 2 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 31 Injector 2 C.C. Gnd (This is not listed but I suppose that this is the function)
ECU Error Code 36 Pump relay
ECU Error Code 37 Local Loop-back
ECU Error Code 44 Relay starter C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 45 Relay starter C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 46 Cannister C.C Vcc
ECU Error Code 47 Cannister C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 50 Battery high
ECU Error Code 51 ECU general
ECU Error Code 54 Instrument panel
ECU Error Code 55 Autoadaptation Tito I (I have no idea what this is.)
ECU Error Code 56 Vehicle speed
ECU Error Code 60 Stepper C.A.
ECU Error Code 61 Stepper C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 62 Stepper C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 00 Unknown

DASHBOARD ERRORS

DSB 01 Immobiliser fault: key code read but not recognised or key code not read
DSB 02 Key not present or transponder broken
DSB 03 Immobiliser fault: Antenna broken (open or short-circuit)
DSB 04 Immobiliser fault: internal controller fault
DSB 05 Fuel sensor fault
DSB 06 Air temperature sensor fault
DSB 07 Oil sensor fault DSB
DSB 08 Oil pressure fault

[smdl]

Thanks, Dave.

Those codes I have (which is why I was able to eventually determine that the following code was at fault  (once the dash would let me in):

ECU Error Code 45 Relay starter C.C. Gnd

What I would still like to find is the list of codes that can be seen in Guzzidiag (including P0170, the initial code that was displayed).  I'd really like to know what that one is. 

That said, I am happy to report that I appear to have found the problem that was causing the "! SERVICE" indication.  Once I had the code indicating that the problem was with one of the starter relays, I tried replacing those without success.  Then I traced the wiring, and checked the connections at the starter itself.  The spade terminal connection at the solenoid was quite loose, and once I tightened it, the problem went away.  It's interesting that the starter currently on the bike is the new type that Piaggio is using in place of the original Bosch units.  It seems the spade lug on these is slightly smaller than that on the Bosch starter, which is why the terminal fit on loosely.  Just FYI in case you end up with one of these.

Sincere thanks to all those who offered assistance.  It was great to get the bike back together and enjoy a short ride on our first sunny Sunday of Spring.  I was also able to get the Eldo out for a bit, so I'll count that a success.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Kiwi Dave]

Yes, it appears that the factory in their wisdom use codes they do not publish anywhere, so even the dealers are kept in the dark.

I know the P0170 code I gave you was for the IAW7SM ECU and not the IAW5AM one you have on your Stelvio, but I would guess that these would not vary between models (who would do that?).

This is confirmed by the California 1400 sharing secret codes with other IAW7SM models such as the Aprilia RSV4 and the Aprilia Dorsoduro 1200.  Examples are (but not published in their respective service manuals)

P0165 Self Learning DBW1 not executed.
P0185 Self Learning DBW2 not executed.

The one I was getting on my Cali 1400 was P0745, the only reference I could find was in Google search was "P0745 Pressure Control Solenoid Malfunction”, I’m fairly sure that my bike doesn’t have one of those.  I got rid of it with a bit of black magic (in other words, I'm not sure how), but in hindsight (which I have a degree in) I suspect it might be an error for the clutch switch.

Why don't they publish all these codes?  If any one can add to the lists, I'm all ears!

[smdl]

Yes, it appears that the factory in their wisdom use codes they do not publish anywhere, so even the dealers are kept in the dark.

I know the P0170 code I gave you was for the IAW7SM ECU and not the IAW5AM one you have on your Stelvio, but I would guess that these would not vary between models (who would do that?).

This is confirmed by the California 1400 sharing secret codes with other IAW7SM models such as the Aprilia RSV4 and the Aprilia Dorsoduro 1200.  Examples are (but not published in their respective service manuals)

P0165 Self Learning DBW1 not executed.
P0185 Self Learning DBW2 not executed.

The one I was getting on my Cali 1400 was P0745, the only reference I could find was in Google search was "P0745 Pressure Control Solenoid Malfunction�, I�m fairly sure that my bike doesn�t have one of those.  I got rid of it with a bit of black magic (in other words, I'm not sure how), but in hindsight (which I have a degree in) I suspect it might be an error for the clutch switch.

Why don't they publish all these codes?  If any one can add to the lists, I'm all ears!

Can't agree more!  Why have the codes if they are not published, at least to dealers? 

I really don't know if the 7SM and 5AM are the same as I believe the WM15 was different from the 5AM.  I assume that the requirements and capabilities change over time, so maybe they come up with a new list each time they design an ECU?  That's just a guess, though, as I have no need info to base it on.

Now that I have resolved the major error, I'm going to go back into GD to see if P0170 continues​ to come up.  I'm also going to check the starter switch and wiring to see if everything looks okay there.  You could well be right about that being the cause of that code!

Thanks again for your help.

Shaun

[pauldaytona]

The P error codes that the ecu gives out are more or less standardized. But there are manufacturers who make some changes as seen here. Guzzidiag just shows the code the ecu gives, the dash gets the same and translates it to text and new numbers. 

P0xxx - Generic
P1xxx - Manufacturer-specific
P2xxx - Generic
P30xx-P33xx - Manufacturer-specific
P34xx-P39xx - Generic Chassis codes

https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/

[tris]

Found this http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/13-v7-miu-ecu-error-codes.12522/ on the Guzzitech site for Pxxx codes

Also go here http://www.guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/750/750Nevada-Anniversario_032014_Atelier(GB).pdf  and scroll down to ELE SYS-81

Both are for the Nevada but working on the assumption the MG will use consistent codes they might help

[pauldaytona]

In more guzzi servicemanuals are lists with codes. As long as the same ECU is used they will be the same, with other ecu you aren't shure.

[smdl]

Good information, Paul and Tris.  However, the code information provided brings up an additional question.  Let's compare:

Guzzidiag "P" code:   P0170 Fuel Trim Malfunction (Bank 1)

Dash ECU Code:   ECU Error Code 45 Relay starter C.C. Gnd

I wonder why these seem to be completely different, when they were the only codes showing in the respective areas at the time?

Will try to have a closer look at things on the weekend.

Again, thanks for your help!

Shaun

[twowings]

Clear the codes and see if they return...

[smdl]

Clear the codes and see if they return...

I did clear the codes many times while trying to diagnose the issue, and they always came back immediately (both dash or in Guzzidiag) when I restarted the engine.  That was, at least until I tightened that connection on the starter.  Will have a look again to see if it is still happening with one, the other, or both.

Cheers.
Shaun

[beetle]

Shaun, ignore the standard OBD codes. Guzzi (and Piaggio) blatantly disregard the OBD standards. It won't be a fuel trim error. Piaggio tend to use the same error codes across their products. You can be reasonably sure the P0170 code is referring to a starter short. It may not be an actual short circuit, but the ECU has possibly sensed a higher voltage than expected.

[smdl]

Shaun, ignore the standard OBD codes. Guzzi (and Piaggio) blatantly disregard the OBD standards. It won't be a fuel trim error. Piaggio tend to use the same error codes across their products. You can be reasonably sure the P0170 code is referring to a starter short. It may not be an actual short circuit, but the ECU has possibly sensed a higher voltage than expected.

Thanks, Mark.  That seems to align pretty well to what I experienced.   Good thing I didn't find out the meaning of P0170 first, or I would have been on that wild goose chase (hah!) for hours!

Cheers,
Shaun

[tris]

Good luck Shaun

I always read the CARC bike threads as who knows when your pain will become my salvation

Thanks for taking one for the team 

[smdl]

Good luck Shaun

I always read the CARC bike threads as who knows when your pain will become my salvation

Thanks for taking one for the team 

You're welcome, Tris... I think.   . I'm never afraid to ask questions, and really appreciate the great expertise here!

Cheers,
Shaun

[Jimijoe]

Hi, new to this site, I have a California 1400 with "Service" word showing. Alaris diagnostic tool says trouble code p0745,  can't find that code in the service manual. It appears Kiwi Dave got same error code,,, to Dave;    was the fix a new micro-switch for the  clutch lever or was there something else?  To all, does anyone know the meaning of that code thanks for all your help, John 

[smdl]

Hi, new to this site, I have a California 1400 with "Service" word showing. Alaris diagnostic tool says trouble code p0745,  can't find that code in the service manual. It appears Kiwi Dave got same error code,,, to Dave;    was the fix a new micro-switch for the  clutch lever or was there something else?  To all, does anyone know the meaning of that code thanks for all your help, John

Hi, John.

Check out Paul's post here:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89451.msg1413785#msg1413785

That will tell you what the generic OBDII codes are, but to Beetl'e point, it doesn't seem that Piaggio adheres closely to the standard.  In my case, by going into the diagnostics on the dash, I was able to get to the real code, which was totally different from what the standard had indicated.  Do you know how to access the diagnostics on the bike itself?

Cheers,
Shaun

[Jimijoe]

Thanks, ... no I don't  know how to access on bike, in fact I just got this alaris just for this "service" warning,  & the electronics are all new to me. Appreciate any help I can get