Author Topic: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic  (Read 1716 times)

Online Aaron D.

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NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« on: April 10, 2017, 06:20:50 AM »
Indian Scout has a weakness-the stock air filter is easy for mice to chew, and the plenum seems popular for winter quarters.

My wife's bike fell victim last year so I checked mine Saturday-found the hole and since I couldn't see all the way in proceeded to remove the airbox.

A second weakness-some of the Scouts don't want the airbox to come off (you can look it up) and as I tried to lift it the darned thing broke.

Anyway, solution to mousie ingress will be a K&N, either on an OEM box or one of many aftermarket intakes. The are all simple, all similar, but some claim that the ECU must be remapped if their product is installed due to the massive vortex effect or something.

Frankly I think it will make little difference and I have no issue with the OE setup if only to keep the noise down-but is hat really true?

I do know all the internet answers and tend to discount them due to my experience with carbs. ANy ideas/suggestions?

beetle

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2017, 07:41:20 AM »
Dunno about no vortex, but the K&N rock strainer will mess with fueling, especially if the Scout has a MAP or MAF sensor in the intake.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2017, 07:44:22 AM »
get a cat?

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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2017, 07:57:21 AM »
I've trapped near 50 of the little buggers since we found they were a threat. The crows think highly of me.

So Beetle, that's interesting. I figured a MAF sensor would let the ECU know about the increase in airflow such as it is. Not quite sure if it has one, mind you. Not easy to find that info, and it would have to be inside the throttle body unlike some of the older automotive systems I've worked on.

The various manufacturers of the K&N based intakes are split 50/50 on whether a remap is needed, and so are the anecdotes of the users. Our Jackal arrived with a K&N drop-in, and I'm pretty sure it was not modified in any way.

Anyway, thanks!


Online Kev m

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 09:34:51 AM »
Beetle - what bikes have you come across that actually use a MAF sensor? I don't think I've come across a single one yet that wasn't speed-density and used a MAP sensor.

Aaron - MAF would in theory adjust to changes in airflow. Speed-density systems will not (except perhaps slightly on the feedback loop end of things).

Anecdotes are probably because of tons of people who didn't actually know what was going on. If you listen to anecdotes all modern bikes are "lean" everywhere, instead of being lean in certain parts of the map and fat elsewhere.

I can't say for certain it would or would not cause problems, but on a speed-density system it should lean it out across the map because the ECM is not calculating the amount of fuel needed based on actual airflow but on anticipated amount of airflow for that density of air and the amount of air that throttle position should allow, but that will be changed by changes to restriction of the air box. How much it leans it out, that depends on how restrictive the air box and original element was in the first place. Could be a lot, could be a little. Could matter a lot in the lean parts of the map, could mean jack.

The problem of course will be finding out without causing damage.

YMMV (and likely will).

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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 12:58:26 PM »
It's funny, the dealer thinks it has a MAF sensor..
Anyway, though the original box is certainly more restrictive, and certainly takes up more room, I would normally not even consider any of this .
I did order the Trask unit today-they claim it should be fine,as does the dealer, but long term (meaning later this week) I hope to get a take-off from the dealer and go back to the OEM box with a drop-in anti-rodent K&N. The dealer does offer other maps, and besides the map they put in all Scouts last summer is so nice..
The OEM box uses a large chamber in the front frame member (most of the area above the radiator) that almost all aftermarket units ignore, and also houses the steering bearings and spindle. That and at least an attempt to capture/return any breather oil   compared to just dumping the oil vapor in the filter will probably see me back to original pretty quick.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 01:53:23 PM »
It's funny, the dealer thinks it has a MAF sensor..

That always scares me.

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beetle

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2017, 04:04:18 PM »
Actually, I've never heard or seen a bike with a MAF sensor. MAP sensor, yes.

Offline rodekyll

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2017, 04:08:04 PM »
I don't know the answer, but I'll use this opportunity to remind folks that a pre-flight checkout is always a good thing.  Mud daubers can do a lot of construction in a day, and after a month away from my trike, I found a mouse nest in my fuse box.  No damage.  That night the mouse returned and ate all the labels off my relays -- and shredded the paper relay map folded next to the fuses.  It had made no attempt to rebuild, just tore things up.  I moved the trike.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 05:35:19 PM »
Actually, I've never heard or seen a bike with a MAF sensor. MAP sensor, yes.
Yeah I guess anything is possible, but that makes two of us.
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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 06:17:06 PM »
It seems it is just a closed loop deal just like a Guzzi. I never heard of bikes with a MAF either, but my last in-depth experience with injection was K-Jetronic..

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2017, 06:49:00 PM »
  Well, I would have figured expensive bikes with MAF...Not.......... ........speed density works pretty good but in some ways a carburetor is more sophisticated because it delivers fuel in response to air flow more or less.... :grin:
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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2017, 07:18:51 PM »
  Well, I would have figured expensive bikes with MAF...Not.......... ........speed density works pretty good but in some ways a carburetor is more sophisticated because it delivers fuel in response to air flow more or less.... :grin:
Carburetors are pretty amazing mechanical meters. A constant velocity carb using a vacuum diagram even adjusts somewhat for air density variances due to temperature or altitude.

But no that still doesn't make it more sophisticated (or precise/capable) than your average open loop speed density system, never mind what is capable with closed loop.

Granted we've got a lot of crap to deal with in terms of what, where, and how emissions are measured that sometimes interferes with ideal tuning, but a carb would be a non-starter if it was a competition because of how much LESS sophisticated a carb is at the end of the day.
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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 08:01:14 PM »
I must be missing something.
MAP sensor allows a calculation of mass air flow, right?
So a minor change in flow-say a more-or-less restrictive intake-along with O2 sensor data,should be handled by the ECU. No?

beetle

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2017, 08:08:23 PM »
MAP is Manifold Air Pressure.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 08:37:43 PM by beetle »

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 08:16:44 PM »
I must be missing something.
MAP sensor allows a calculation of mass air flow, right?
So a minor change in flow-say a more-or-less restrictive intake-along with O2 sensor data,should be handled by the ECU. No?
No, MAF = mass air flow sensor. That calculates mass flow. Those systems are called mass airflow because that sensor directly measures it.

MAP = manifold air pressure sensor, that combined with the TPS (throttle position sensor) provides one of the main mapping data points of a Speed-Density system.

TPS tells ECM how much the throttle plate is open and combined with density data means it calculates how much air is entering the throttle (or fuel is needed for that combination) but that is based on known flow rates of the stock airbox etc. Change one of the flow variables and the calculation (map) is off.
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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2017, 08:47:37 PM »
I see, it has a PRESSURE value but not an observed velocity. Thanks, Beetle and Kev.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2017, 06:28:47 AM »
 Some new vehicles still use a speed density system, I believe the Ford Eco Boost engines use it .....
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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2017, 06:32:47 AM »
In thinking about this I can see where people get into trouble assuming the engine will run lean if the intake has less restriction-manifold pressure will be generally higher with a more open intake, especially if the throttle is opened quickly. So you could end up with a richer mixture, assuming the fuel map has the ability to give it the fuel..

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2017, 06:51:58 AM »
Beetle can tell you much more, but my understanding is that maps create an artificially bizarre landscape at time because of EPA/EU regulations. Bikes especially (as opposed to cars) are tested at very small specific windows, like idle or steady throttle, where the narrow band O2 sensors can lean out mixtures but at high rpm or at acceleration points the testing goes out the window. (This is the carb bikes still sold in the last decade or two often had very lean idle circuits but rich main circuits).

I don't believe transition from say idle to WOT is an issue, the electronics respond instantly. Lots of people who are used to carbs get on EFI bikes the first time and complain about jerkyness which is often just a case of better throttle response than they are used to.

As you noted the main difference between MAF and MAP based EFI systems is that while the former is actually measuring volume (from observed velocity) the latter is calculating it from the variables of pressure and throttle position with an assumed data point of known flow rates.

So lean operation comes when the ECM follows the MAP based on an anticipated flow of X when it is really getting a flow of X+something because of mechanical changes it doesn't know about (airbox and/or exhaust modifications). It supplies only the fuel necessary for X and that comes up shy of what is needed.

Now since maps can be rich at high RPM and WOT, that's not likely when problems would occur.

But the whole point of EFI is to lean out the mixture to reduce pollutants whenever possible and more so to do it at levels that are unapproachable safely with carburetors (especially in closed-loop operation) that additional leanness can be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. So I'd be worried more at idle and steady throttle than a WOT.

Generally speaking it would just lead to higher combustion chamber temperatures (which might already be pretty darn high during normal operation). Maybe the biggest immediate danger would be if it starts to cause pre-ignition. But in most cases I don't think anything is going to go boom right away.
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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2017, 07:38:02 AM »

But the whole point of EFI is to lean out the mixture to reduce pollutants whenever possible and more so to do it at levels that are unapproachable safely with carburetors (especially in closed-loop operation) that additional leanness can be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. So I'd be worried more at idle and steady throttle than a WOT.

Generally speaking it would just lead to higher combustion chamber temperatures (which might already be pretty darn high during normal operation). Maybe the biggest immediate danger would be if it starts to cause pre-ignition. But in most cases I don't think anything is going to go boom right away.

  Modern cars/trucks have  three way catalytic convertors...For proper function it requires the fuel mixture to be close to 14.5 stoichometric except during full throttle or heavy loads when it's closer to 12.5....There's also something called "dithering" ,where the mixture varies  from rich to lean to control the all the regulated emissions... It's the older 80-90's engines that could be run leaner during light load cruising for better fuel mileage. You know how Lannis says his 1990 ish small car gets such great fuel mileage, party because of the leaner burn capability...
 
  Obviously new bikes don't need to meet the same emissions standards as cars so it's a whole different story...
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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2017, 07:57:40 AM »
Having 2 identical bikes will make this an interesting experiment.  When we ride together our engine temps have been nearly constantly in sync, over all sorts of conditions (intercoms and long rides make for interesting conversation).

The difference in flow at a given pressure is going to be impossible to predict with simple math, so I am sure the map has a table based on experimentation. I do think there wouls have to be some distortion based on how much higher manifold pressure will be with an intake of lower restriction, both in instant throttle changes, and steady state.

I'll post what I find on temps when I have data. The vendor for the intake I'll install tonight says this one needs no mods to fueling used in isolation, no pipes etc. I don't expect any performance difference, just more noise.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2017, 09:24:18 AM »
  Modern cars/trucks have  three way catalytic convertors...For proper function it requires the fuel mixture to be close to 14.5 stoichometric except during full throttle or heavy loads when it's closer to 12.5....There's also something called "dithering" ,where the mixture varies  from rich to lean to control the all the regulated emissions... It's the older 80-90's engines that could be run leaner during light load cruising for better fuel mileage. You know how Lannis says his 1990 ish small car gets such great fuel mileage, party because of the leaner burn capability...
 
  Obviously new bikes don't need to meet the same emissions standards as cars so it's a whole different story...

If we're being pedantic 14.7:1, but yes.

And yes, the ECM can't actually hold that ratio, but moves back and forth across it attempting to average it as best as they can.

But it's not the fuel system's fault if combustion is not always based around best mileage, that's the emissions standards interfering with ideal mileage situations.

Those 80-90s fuel systems weren't better, they were just less regulated. And remember some standards are at odds with others, balancing conditions for NOx vs CO vs ideal mileage.

Theose 80s-90s systems met lower standards, in vehicles that were often smaller and lighter, with lower crash test standards and a lack of a number of mandated safety systems in our current vehicles.

Bottom line, it's not the fault of the technology nor does it make it any less sophisticated. It's a balancing of lots of requirements, many of which are at odds with each other.
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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2017, 09:28:07 AM »
Having 2 identical bikes will make this an interesting experiment.  When we ride together our engine temps have been nearly constantly in sync, over all sorts of conditions (intercoms and long rides make for interesting conversation).

The difference in flow at a given pressure is going to be impossible to predict with simple math, so I am sure the map has a table based on experimentation. I do think there wouls have to be some distortion based on how much higher manifold pressure will be with an intake of lower restriction, both in instant throttle changes, and steady state.

I'll post what I find on temps when I have data. The vendor for the intake I'll install tonight says this one needs no mods to fueling used in isolation, no pipes etc. I don't expect any performance difference, just more noise.

It will be interesting for sure.

Though being water-cooled engine temps might not tell you much depending on circumstances. If the cooling system is easily keeping up with demand (thermostat is cycling/not fully open) then you might not see a difference even if combustion temps are hotter. Of course one might argue that if that's the case there's no problem.

All feedback EFI systems allow some amount of adjustment through learned fuel trim. When Harley went to feedback EFI across the board in 07 they claimed (and still do I believe) that the systems can adjust for minor changes of the exhaust or air cleaner, but not both. And that major changes to either or changes to both would require a reflash.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2017, 10:59:35 AM »
If we're being pedantic 14.7:1, but yes.

And yes, the ECM can't actually hold that ratio, but moves back and forth across it attempting to average it as best as they can.

But it's not the fuel system's fault if combustion is not always based around best mileage, that's the emissions standards interfering with ideal mileage situations.

Those 80-90s fuel systems weren't better, they were just less regulated. And remember some standards are at odds with others, balancing conditions for NOx vs CO vs ideal mileage.

Theose 80s-90s systems met lower standards, in vehicles that were often smaller and lighter, with lower crash test standards and a lack of a number of mandated safety systems in our current vehicles.

Bottom line, it's not the fault of the technology nor does it make it any less sophisticated. It's a balancing of lots of requirements, many of which are at odds with each other.

  The E10 that most of us use has a  Stoichiometric of about 14.1 not the 14.7 of pure gasoline...The varying  A/F ratio is done by the ECM on purpose to help the three way catalyst do it's job.....
 
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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2017, 11:41:42 AM »
  The E10 that most of us use has a  Stoichiometric of about 14.1 not the 14.7 of pure gasoline...

Good point, I hadn't actually thought about that, but it makes sense since the ethanol acts as an oxygenate and already leans it out more.  :thumb:


The varying  A/F ratio is done by the ECM on purpose to help the three way catalyst do it's job.....

Not what I was taught, but it was about 2 decades ago and I could have been taught wrong or not kept up with the changes, so I'll take your word for it.
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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2017, 11:57:25 AM »
Good point, I hadn't actually thought about that, but it makes sense since the ethanol acts as an oxygenate and already leans it out more.  :thumb:
 

Not what I was taught, but it was about 2 decades ago and I could have been taught wrong or not kept up with the changes, so I'll take your word for it.
    I looked it up when you mentioned 14.7   :grin:


  I listen to a guy that worked for GM designing emissions controls for new engines...Much of it goes over my head but I do retain some, not to say it's 100 percent accurate  :wink:.. There lots of info on the Internet about "dithering" as it applies to vehicle emissions...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 11:58:23 AM by Rough Edge racing »
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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2017, 01:41:05 PM »
Good point, I hadn't actually thought about that, but it makes sense since the ethanol acts as an oxygenate and already leans it out more.  :thumb:


This makes some sense to me. My usual gas station started using a blend, not sure which percent. All 3 bikes started pinging on the freeway. Started using a different brand, all have cleared up. BTW: air temps have been about the same, so it was not just a hot week causing the ping.

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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2017, 06:56:55 PM »
Well I installed the Trask dingus. Rode for 35 miles or so, no difference in riding, power or much of anything that I can tell, except if I open the throttle 1/2 way or more it is a lot louder than I like.

Temps were also identical (I've ridden this thing a lot) at least at the fairly low throttle I tend to use while enjoying the ride. I can't imagine there's enough demand from the engine to make a damned bit of difference to the mixture.

In fact, it runs much better than the stock bike did before the recall reflash last summer.

Still, I expect I'll put in the stocker again when it comes in. I do not like the intake honk. We'll see.

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Re: NGC-Fuel Injection question, basic
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2017, 02:04:52 PM »
One final bit of information-one of the tuners that makes these intakes, exhausts etc. had a comment-that when they dyno various bikes with various intakes, all the speed-density injection bikes have identical air-fuel ratios comparing stock to whatever. Either the system adjusts, or the stock exhaust is keeping things close to par.

Any change to exhaust on the other hand makes a radical difference.


 

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