Author Topic: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .  (Read 11302 times)

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2017, 02:16:09 PM »
Harley has at most a decade of baby boomers keeping them afloat to turn around the company and Ducati if available may be their only hope.  Last year they laid off workers (3.5% of total workforce) in 2 plants and saw Polaris blow by with double digit increase in sales huge profits. Sure Polaris is much smaller the HOG but they are eating into HD market share. 
 From a Sept 2016 article in Forbes.
 https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2016/09/13/harley-davidson-tough-times-ahead-in-the-domestic-market/#5670c3771fb9

"In Q2, Polaris� motorcycle sales grew 23% year-over-year and gross profit increased by 63%. Although Harley�s motorcycle and related parts revenue is more than 7x that of Polaris�, what is notable here is the trend. While the overall motorcycle industry retail sales for 901+cc were down mid-single digit percent in the second quarter, North American consumer retail demand for the Polaris motorcycle segment was up mid-teens percent. This means that Polaris is growing much more than Harley. This, however, isn�t surprising, since Polaris is much smaller and Harley already has a massive ~50% market share to protect. However, the growth levels that Polaris is managing are more than commendable and could hurt Harley�s market share � which is already under pressure from international manufacturers. While Harley lowered its full-year shipment guidance on tepid U.S. sales, Polaris announced that it expects its motorcycle sales to be up by a double-digit percentage this year."
For those who look to the future another Forbes article breaks down the best and worst case scenario for HD in the future. Interestingly they call the "heavyweight market" at anything about 601ccs. I think that the need to up that figure to 750ccs as there are a lot of 600-750 cos that are not heavy weigh bikes. As an investment and not a M/Cist I would not put my money on them in the long term after reading this piece.
https://www.trefis.com/stock/hog/model/trefis?easyAccessToken=PROVIDER_3995b9c54473513875b69a9d6d11c1d56faa28a2
Two things stick out for me long term outlook for HOG.
"U.S. Heavyweight Motorcycle sales account for almost two-thirds of the company�s overall motorcycle sales, making it the largest single geographic market for Harley-Davidson. Over the past few years, overall heavyweight motorcycle sales have declined significantly in the U.S. while international sales have increased slightly.Last paragraph in this article takes China out as a place of growth for HD or for any manufacturer.

Strict riding laws in China resist growth for Harley

"Many local governments in China have imposed laws against bike-riding in order to curb traffic and drive-by thefts associated with motorcycle riders. Low safety performance has also been cited for the restriction of bikes in some cities. Motorcycles have been banned in close to 200 cities, including the highly populated Beijing and Guangzhou. China also limits distribution of number plates to control traffic on roads. In addition, motorcycles have to be scrapped after eleven years of registration, as per law in China. This law encompasses not only the cheaper mopeds and scooters, but also high-end premium motorcycles. Strict laws laid down by the Chinese government clearly point to the absence of a leisure biking culture in the country. If no amendments are made to these regulations in the future, growth of the heavyweight motorcycle in China could continue to face headwinds."
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 03:39:22 PM by redrider90 »
Red 90 Mille GT

Online rocker59

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 23143
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2017, 02:17:01 PM »
Didn't know about that. Too bad, they seemed good motorcycles - at least the Indian thing will still be kept going.
 

The dealers have some pretty good deals on the few remaining Victories.

Yes, the word is that Polaris didn't want to spend the money upgrading the powertrain on the Victories to remain EU compliant.  Victory has been pretty stagnant and the money was thought better spent to bolster the roaring success of the new Indian Motorcycles.

Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt


Offline roadscum

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 606
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2017, 02:17:54 PM »
Which technology would that be ???

Some of that 21st century innovation like............... ................
................... .
...........
Traction control, ride modes, cornering ABS, suspension that works, to name a few, and maybe improve handling capability or lighter more rigid  frame design, engines that don't shut down a cylinder in warm riding conditions to prevent engine failure..... It's good to see H-D finally adopted ABS but a linked system.... WTF. BMW gave that up years ago.

Paul
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:21:43 PM by roadscum »
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing " - Socrates

Paul M. in SW Florida: 318 miles, 11 curves and not a Guzzi dealer in sight!

Online rocker59

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 23143
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2017, 02:29:43 PM »
Harley...laid off workers (3.5% of total workforce) in 2 plants and saw Polaris blow by with double digit increase in sales huge profits. Sure Polaris is much smaller the HOG but they are eating into HD market share. 
 
"In Q2, Polaris� motorcycle sales grew 23% year-over-year and gross profit increased by 63%. Although Harley�s motorcycle and related parts revenue is more than 7x that of Polaris�, what is notable here is the trend. While the overall motorcycle industry retail sales for 901+cc were down mid-single digit percent in the second quarter, North American consumer retail demand for the Polaris motorcycle segment was up mid-teens percent. This means that Polaris is growing much more than Harley. This, however, isn�t surprising, since Polaris is much smaller and Harley already has a massive ~50% market share to protect. However, the growth levels that Polaris is managing are more than commendable and could hurt Harley�s market share � which is already under pressure from international manufacturers. While Harley lowered its full-year shipment guidance on tepid U.S. sales, Polaris announced that it expects its motorcycle sales to be up by a double-digit percentage this year."
For those who look to the future another Forbes article breaks down the best and worst case scenario for HD in the future. Interestingly they call the "heavyweight market" at anything about 601ccs. I think that the need to up that figure to 750ccs as there are a lot of 600-750 cos that are not heavy weigh bikes. As an investment and not a M/Cist I would not put my money on them in the long term after reading this piece.
 

These articles always frustrate me.  Here's why:

"Rocker59 motors has reported a 100% increase in motorcycle sales, while Harley Davidson has seen a 3.5% decrease.  Rocker59 motors is clearly cutting into HD marketshare, and the MoCo appears concerned"

Here's the part that they always leave out:

(Rocker59 motors increased sales from one (1) to two(2) vehicles last year.  H-D was down to 235,000 from the previous year's 243,225 sales.)

Yes, Polaris is kicking ass with Indian.  But, but, but their volume increases (in numbers) are minuscule as compared to H-D.  Harley Davidson makes more bikes per week than Indian does in two years !!!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:30:05 PM by rocker59 »
Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28279
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2017, 02:32:56 PM »
These articles always frustrate me.  Here's why:

"Rocker59 motors has reported a 100% increase in motorcycle sales, while Harley Davidson has seen a 3.5% decrease.  Rocker59 motors is clearly cutting into HD marketshare, and the MoCo appears concerned"

Here's the part that they always leave out:

(Rocker59 motors increased sales from one (1) to two(2) vehicles last year.  H-D was down to 235,000 from the previous year's 243,225 sales.)

Yes, Polaris is kicking ass with Indian.  But, but, but their volume increases (in numbers) are minuscule as compared to H-D.  Harley Davidson makes more bikes per week than Indian does in two years !!!


Agreed, though I'm not sure I'd just start investing in Harley right now either. But then again, I let my "financial adviser" talk me out of moving $10k into Ford when it was $1/share, so I might not be the best guy to talk to anyway.

But yes, Polaris has a LONG LONG way to go to approach Harley in MOTORCYCLE sales. 
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28279
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2017, 02:43:44 PM »
Some of that 21st century innovation like............... ................
................... .
...........
Traction control, ride modes, cornering ABS, suspension that works, to name a few, and maybe improve handling capability or lighter more rigid  frame design, engines that don't shut down a cylinder in warm riding conditions to prevent engine failure..... It's good to see H-D finally adopted ABS but a linked system.... WTF. BMW gave that up years ago.

Paul

I see traction control as important on current Harley models as it is on the V7 series.

I'm not sure of the differences between cornering ABS and the other ABS systems I've got in the garage, but that said the Reflex Linked Brembo ABS system on my new Harley seems pretty damn good so far. Yes it is linked, sorta. It balances the brakes front to rear at speeds over something around 35 mph IIRC. It's doing it so electronically not mechanically, so I can literally 1 finger brake my 800# tour bike if I want to. But I can sorta get some feedback into the pedal and lever if I'm using them both properly. I'd certainly not poo-poo it until I tried it.

Handling is excellent on the models that prioritize it (i.e. that aren't lowered for customer reasons). Both my Sporty and RK do quite fine.

Weight, I'll give you that, but it's a two-edged sword. They build to extreme durable tolerances weighted by some odd anti-lawsuit BS standards, like a brake lever that has to be able to withstand a 300# man standing on it in his garage to reach a shelf or some stupid things. I wouldn't mind a lighter overall line, but I don't want/need them to be Ducati or even Smallblock Guzzi light.

The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure. Trust me I've gotten stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on multiple EFI Harleys over the years in summer temperatures and sometimes for HOURS. And that's occurred on bikes with and without the system. And guess what, it never kicked in on the one that had it. Now granted that was my 07 and it wasn't as sophisticated a system as what is supposedly on my RK, so we'll see. But in any case the whole damned thing is about rider comfort when stuck in traffic. And it's a pretty smart system if you think about it.

Most people who don't like Harleys don't bother to understand the technology they use and why they do it. They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base, and I generally think they do a very good job of it.

I like the linked Brembo ABS, responsive RBW EFI, reliable auto-cancelling turn signals, plug-n-play additional running/brake lights, and tech that Harley has used, along with some amazing things that Moto Guzzi has never seemed to get right - like VALVE TRAINS... especially Hydraulic ones.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Online rocker59

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 23143
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2017, 03:17:16 PM »
Some of that 21st century innovation like............... ................
................... .
...........
Traction control, ride modes, cornering ABS, suspension that works, to name a few, and maybe improve handling capability or lighter more rigid  frame design, engines that don't shut down a cylinder in warm riding conditions to prevent engine failure..... It's good to see H-D finally adopted ABS but a linked system.... WTF. BMW gave that up years ago.

Paul

The auto-park feature is what I'm holding out for.  I'll not buy another motorcycle until they incorporate auto-park.  I want to be able to pull crossways across traffic, push a button, then have the computer back my motorcycle into the "motorcycle only" spot in front of the bar down on Dickson Street.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL   :shocked:
Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Tennmoto

  • Guest
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2017, 03:25:04 PM »
One thing I've noticed all along in the motorcycle market some of us like continued similar design
That evolves and similar parts can be available even on much older bikes, and many more people
Understand how to fix them. Also the strength of aftermarket options available because of large production numbers. Those things and the fairly successful "boutique " design of the dealerships.
That rich guy from Omaha saw these things and invested in HD.
 There are some negative things too though. It's my belief that the Sportster line is a durable. Reliable
Model. The big twins are debatable. Many owners say they haven't had problems and put lots of miles
And some have had camshaft bearings, tensioner problems and in my case the voltage regulator-stator
Failure that costs $700 plus to fix, on a Softail with 12k miles, which led me to trade it in for a Victory.
So there is some concern for durability with extended warranties costing a lot.
But you know the motorcycle buyer has other interests than reliability, many buyers avoiding the brand
For Metric cruisers because of the culture perceived. So it must be really difficult to figure out what's
Really going on but I think with the new motor HD could compete with Indian and they are paying
Attention to the growing Indian movement

Offline canuck750

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »
Harley is THE marketing success storey of the two wheel world, no question about it, HD is brilliant at selling bikes and the "lifestyle" image. I am currently looking to buy what may be my last big touring sled and the list gets pretty narrow as I start to compare what is offered in the price category.

At the top of the heap in Canadian Dollars are the Honda GL1800, The BMW K1600GTL and the Harley Ultra Limited, all around the same $33K to get a nicely equipped bike.

The Honda and BMW are pretty similarly equipped, both have a water cooled six, the BMW puts out 160 hp, 129 ft.lbs, the Honda 118 hp / 123 ft.lbs. Harley only publishes torque and the new engine is listed at 113 ft.lbs (any idea of horsepower?).

Weight wise the BMW is 762 lbs, 904 for the GL1800 and 908 for the HD.

Technology wise the BMW is ahead with DTS - Dynamic Traction Control, ESA - Electronic Suspension Control, ASC - Automatic Stability Control and standard ABS. They also have adaptive Standard Cruise Control, LED lighting, Adaptive Brake lights, Tire Pressure Monitor, Side Mirror Warning, Touch Screen GPS, Power Wind Screen, Heated seats and grips and a pretty impressive stereo.

The GL1800 is similarly equipped but lacks DTC and DSC, no power windshield, but can be ordered with an air bag and has adaptable air ride suspension.

The Harley has ABS and cruise control and a top of the line stereo and an endless list of accessories to dress up the ride.

On a purely analytical review I think the BMW is the clear leader in lowest weight, powerful engine, safety features and convenience features.

Honda probably has the best long term / high mileage / dependability rating.

Harley manages to out sell both of its competitors. Go figure.




1949 Guzzi Airone
1958 Guzzi Cardellino
1972 Guzzi Eldorado
1972 Benelli Enduro
1973 Guzzi V7 Sport
1973 Laverda SF1
1973 Benelli 650S
1974 Guzzi 750S
1975 Moto Morini 3 1/2
1975 Ducati 860 GT
1978 Moto Morini 500
2015 KLR 650
2016 BMW K1600

SOLD
1973 V7 Sport
1975 750 S3
1977 Le Mans
1993 1000

Online rocker59

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 23143
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2017, 03:45:22 PM »

some of us like continued similar design
That evolves and similar parts can be available even on much older bikes, 

in my case the voltage regulator-stator Failure that costs $700 plus to fix, on a Softail with 12k miles, which led me to trade it in for a Victory.

So there is some concern for durability with extended warranties costing a lot.
 

So, you traded a Harley Davidson for a dead in the water Victory because it will have better long term parts availability and a better extended warranty ???
Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Online LowRyter

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 12240
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2017, 04:00:00 PM »
I see no synergy, cross over, nor shared design, engineering, manufacturing, retail, distribution, marketing or parts.

Buell, MV, and now Ducati (that's even draining money from VW)?  :violent1:

Basically nothing shared between the two companies but two wheels.  :boxing:

Sorta like Lamborghinis and tractors.  Oh wait.  That didn't make my point.   :shocked:
John L  (Guzzi's Chime at 9AM & Midnight)

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2017, 04:26:34 PM »
Harley is THE marketing success storey of the two wheel world, no question about it, HD is brilliant at selling bikes and the "lifestyle" image.

Harley's "lifestyle" image is dying a slow death and it's the death of my generation is taking them to the grave.  HD built it on the growth of baby boomers and the housing boom. They all but went belly up during the recession because the first thing people shed during a recession is their image. Images cost money and if you are out of work and or taking a big pay cut that means by by disposable income. Harley's image has to change and I do not believe they can change it. How do you sell really big chrome motorcycles to the up and coming Millennium's. That are not into that.

 1st quarter 2017 sucked big time. Low sales, left over revenue from 2016 and used MC prices lower. And all this with a 4.3% unemployment rate.
By
Andrew
Tangel

Harley-Davidson Inc.'s revenue fell 14% in the first quarter as the motorcycle maker's retail sales slid in the in the U.S. and abroad.

Milwaukee-based Harley said it faced weak pricing on used motorcycles, a buildup of 2016 inventory at its dealers and sluggish sales in areas of the U.S. that depend on the oil industry, executives said in a call with analysts Tuesday.

Revenue from motorcycles and related products of $1.33 billion came in below analysts' consensus of $1.36 billion.

Earnings per-share fell 23% to $1.05 from the prior year. Net income was $186.4 million, down from $250.5 million in the first quarter last year. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters were expecting earnings of $1.02 per share.Harley maintained its outlook for the year, predicting full-year motorcycle shipments to be flat to down modestly compared to last year. The company didn't release revenue guidance.

The company expects to ship approximately 80,000 to 85,000 motorcycles in the second quarter. That was below the FactSet consensus of 88,160. Harley has been reducing shipments of newer models to encourage dealers to shed existing inventory."
Red 90 Mille GT

Offline roadscum

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 606
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2017, 04:41:44 PM »
I see traction control as important on current Harley models as it is on the V7 series.

........
....

Handling is excellent on the models that prioritize it (i.e. that aren't lowered for customer reasons). Both my Sporty and RK do quite fine.


The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure. Trust me I've gotten stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on multiple EFI Harleys over the years in summer temperatures and sometimes for HOURS. And that's occurred on bikes with and without the system. And guess what, it never kicked in on the one that had it. Now granted that was my 07 and it wasn't as sophisticated a system as what is supposedly on my RK, so we'll see. But in any case the whole damned thing is about rider comfort when stuck in traffic. And it's a pretty smart system if you think about it.

Most people who don't like Harleys don't bother to understand the technology they use and why they do it. They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base, and I generally think they do a very good job of it.

......
....
..

"Handling  is excellent": Sure  for a H-D, but not even in the same  game as any Ducati.

"The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure": So why is it there. I can attest to the fact that here in SW Florida it does indeed function as needed.

"They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base....."

Most Harley riders don't know  the value of technology, most want only noise  and  chrome, that I get.
The tech can be a valuable safety feature, add to rider comfort and convenience, improve bike versatility. and in general make  you a better rider.  Spend a week on a BMW or Ducati and they'll understand.

Paul
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing " - Socrates

Paul M. in SW Florida: 318 miles, 11 curves and not a Guzzi dealer in sight!

Online oldbike54

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24676
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2017, 04:46:54 PM »
 Canuck 750 , your question regarding HD horsepower depends on where the 113 lbs ft of torque is measured . If it is taken at 3,000 RPM's that equals about 65 HP . At 3,500 about 68 HP .

 Dusty
Transmit the message , to the receiver
Hope for an answer someday

Offline canuck750

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2017, 04:57:31 PM »
Canuck 750 , your question regarding HD horsepower depends on where the 113 lbs ft of torque is measured . If it is taken at 3,000 RPM's that equals about 65 HP . At 3,500 about 68 HP .

 Dusty

Really!!, 68 horse power, I thought they were putting out near 95 hp by now, my 72 850 Eldorado isn't too far off those horse power numbers.

The Ultra is weighing in at over 900 lbs, no wonder the Road King and Street Glide's I rented in 2014 / 2015 felt like they had governors on them.

The comments about HD applying technology only where it makes sense, just doesn't make sense.
Better adaptive suspension, stability control, traction control, ... are valuable things, especially on a 900 pound machine.

The build your bike pages kind of says it all, on the BMW web page you select options for safety, ergonomics, lighting etc, on the Harley pages you select trim, paint, chrome, custom wheels ........ all bling.
1949 Guzzi Airone
1958 Guzzi Cardellino
1972 Guzzi Eldorado
1972 Benelli Enduro
1973 Guzzi V7 Sport
1973 Laverda SF1
1973 Benelli 650S
1974 Guzzi 750S
1975 Moto Morini 3 1/2
1975 Ducati 860 GT
1978 Moto Morini 500
2015 KLR 650
2016 BMW K1600

SOLD
1973 V7 Sport
1975 750 S3
1977 Le Mans
1993 1000

Online oldbike54

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24676
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2017, 05:02:07 PM »
 Canuck , they probably are making over 80 HP at 5,000 RPM's , I was just using the peak torque figure and using the formula for HP .

  HP = torque x RPM's over 5252 .

 Since we don't know where the peak torque is rated I just pulled out a figure . HD engines are low RPM , so I used 3,000 as a benchmark .


 Dusty
Transmit the message , to the receiver
Hope for an answer someday

Online bad Chad

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 7739
  • Location: Central Il
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2017, 05:13:11 PM »
I don't know what to think about this.

I live in a fairly affluent area of the country, and I see a good number of young riders, many on new bikes.  This is only anecdotal, but many of them are ridding new or newish HDs.  And many are on Yammaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Honda 500-1000cc standards, along with a good smattering of Groms and such.

I too have trouble seeing how their could be much synergy between HD and Ducati? 
2007 Breva 1100  Red Arrow (and faster than yours!)
2016 CSC 250TT Zongshen

Online JJ

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 14198
  • Life is meant to ENJOY...not "endure."
  • Location: Village of Oak Creek, Arizona
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2017, 05:21:29 PM »
So, you traded a Harley Davidson for a dead in the water Victory because it will have better long term parts availability and a better extended warranty ???

Hey now!  :wink: :laugh: :grin: - - Have owned / ridden 4 Big Twin Harley's, and they are excellent road bikes...but so are Victory's...and even though they are "dead" now...parts / service will still available for the next ten years. :thumb: :1: :cool: 

"Hell Hath No Fury...like Moby Dick" - aka The Great White Whale!  :laugh: :grin: :wink:













Life Member: MGNOC L-772, AMA, HOG
'98 V10 Centauro GT
'14 Victory Vision Tour
Village of Oak Creek, AZ

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9720
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2017, 05:24:31 PM »
Really!!, 68 horse power, I thought they were putting out near 95 hp by now, my 72 850 Eldorado isn't too far off those horse power numbers.

If you were to put your Eldo on a dyno, I'll bet you'd be lucky to see 40 rwhp which is maybe 50? bhp.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'76 Convert
'13 V7 Stone

Most used word in my vocabulary lately: "whatever", usually delivered with all of the disdain of an aging Valley Girl...

Offline drums4money

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Location: PA: Latitude: 40.688432 | Longitude: -75.220732
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2017, 05:41:23 PM »
Considering that other potential suitors are profit-only VC groups, Harley could be the safest harbor.  Despite their seemingly hyper reliance on lifestyle rather than performance, HD is a two-wheeled vehicle.  VC companies- at least in my industry experence- only have a passion for cutting everything to the bone searching for the last possible bare cent.  They dumb the product, kill the marketing, and drive away the talent. 

Better Harley than Bain.   
hypocrite, four flusher, snake in the grass, just a swindler and wolf in sheep's clothing...liar

1200 Sport , Monster S2R, MV Agusta B3 800

Old School Audio:
http://oldschoolaudio.wix.com/headphones

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9720
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2017, 05:58:52 PM »
Considering that other potential suitors are profit-only VC groups, Harley could be the safest harbor.  Despite their seemingly hyper reliance on lifestyle rather than performance, HD is a two-wheeled vehicle.  VC companies- at least in my industry experence- only have a passion for cutting everything to the bone searching for the last possible bare cent.  They dumb the product, kill the marketing, and drive away the talent. 

Better Harley than Bain.

Bajaj? Builds bikes for KTM. Might be better than Harley.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'76 Convert
'13 V7 Stone

Most used word in my vocabulary lately: "whatever", usually delivered with all of the disdain of an aging Valley Girl...

twowings

  • Guest
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2017, 06:03:02 PM »
If you were to put your Eldo on a dyno, I'll bet you'd be lucky to see 40 rwhp which is maybe 50? bhp.

Which is all the 99% need, anyway...

Offline pebra

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1762
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2017, 06:10:54 PM »
Considering that other potential suitors are profit-only VC groups, Harley could be the safest harbor.  Despite their seemingly hyper reliance on lifestyle rather than performance, HD is a two-wheeled vehicle.  VC companies- at least in my industry experence- only have a passion for cutting everything to the bone searching for the last possible bare cent.  They dumb the product, kill the marketing, and drive away the talent. 

Better Harley than Bain.

Wasn't that venture capital turning Ducati round and actually making a success story out of the brand?
Guzzi HTMoto Roadster "Verdina"
2009 Griso 8V "Weißgerät"
Norge-man - introduction #ca 198 shown Guzzi #195

Offline Murray

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2509
Re: Harley Ducks?
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2017, 06:12:58 PM »
Oh goody! Can you imagine if they combine dealerships into one building?  What a clash of cultures.  Enough leather to, to, to...........sorry, I can't think of a good metaphor.

You don't have to imagine it exists a whole chain of them http://www.frasermotorcycles.com.au

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28279
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2017, 06:20:00 PM »


"Handling  is excellent": Sure  for a H-D, but not even in the same  game as any Ducati.

"The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure": So why is it there. I can attest to the fact that here in SW Florida it does indeed function as needed.

"They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base....."

Most Harley riders don't know  the value of technology, most want only noise  and  chrome, that I get.
The tech can be a valuable safety feature, add to rider comfort and convenience, improve bike versatility. and in general make  you a better rider.  Spend a week on a BMW or Ducati and they'll understand.

Paul

Paul, out of curiosity how many Harleys have you owned? How many have you ridden?

Not the same game as Duc, gee really? You mean cruisers, touring bikes, and classic standards don't have the same handling as sportbikes?

That's not the point though, when ridden on the street in even remotely responsible speeds they handle just fine and a number might surprise you.

As for your generalizations and love of tech I'm not buying everything you're selling. Having ridden Harleys for almost a quarter century I wouldn't presume to know what MOST Harley riders do or don't know about technology. That said many people aren't looking for the level is tech you can find on a BMW. Safety and comfort are fine goals but if that's what you really want then at some point a motorcycle isn't the right choice.

As a multi-time BMW and Guzzi owner I still seem to instead choose a Harley twice as often.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline drums4money

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Location: PA: Latitude: 40.688432 | Longitude: -75.220732
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2017, 06:24:00 PM »
Bajaj? Builds bikes for KTM. Might be better than Harley.

Won't disagree.  Is Bajaj controlling interest in KTM, or a manufacturing partner that allows KTM better entry into those world markets where smaller displacement are the revenue and margin leaders?  I don't know. . . but I do know I would love a smaller displacement KTM like the RC390.

There's a sporting/performance mindset surrounding KTM that hasn't been long-term or successfully sustained by HD other than flat-track.  An Indian company might have more discipline to allow a company with some brand equity like Ducati to leverage that strength.  For example, Tata have done more to re-establish the British'ness of Jaguar than Ford ever could, and the brand has experienced tremendous revitalization.  New model introductions feel more Jaguar where they were otherwise on the road to becoming the next Crown Victoria with FoMoCo. 

So, yes.  Bajaj might could pull it off.  Tata, for that matter, could possibly give Ducati the same autonomy that VW/Audi did and push smaller displacement development in a similar way that Bajaj has with KTM. 
hypocrite, four flusher, snake in the grass, just a swindler and wolf in sheep's clothing...liar

1200 Sport , Monster S2R, MV Agusta B3 800

Old School Audio:
http://oldschoolaudio.wix.com/headphones

Offline drums4money

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Location: PA: Latitude: 40.688432 | Longitude: -75.220732
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2017, 06:32:40 PM »
Wasn't that venture capital turning Ducati round and actually making a success story out of the brand?

Yes.  TPG did turn it around.  They also had interests in a few other lifestyle brands like J.Crew, Piaggio, and wine/spirits.  Bain Capital, however, seem to be dissecting a major component of my industry to the point that they appear to be swirling the drain.  So there was something in the makeup of TPG that felt and acted more like turnaround versus liquidation as with some other VC activity. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 06:37:22 PM by drums4money »
hypocrite, four flusher, snake in the grass, just a swindler and wolf in sheep's clothing...liar

1200 Sport , Monster S2R, MV Agusta B3 800

Old School Audio:
http://oldschoolaudio.wix.com/headphones

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28279
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2017, 06:36:49 PM »


Really!!, 68 horse power, I thought they were putting out near 95 hp by now, my 72 850 Eldorado isn't too far off those horse power numbers.

The Ultra is weighing in at over 900 lbs, no wonder the Road King and Street Glide's I rented in 2014 / 2015 felt like they had governors on them.

The comments about HD applying technology only where it makes sense, just doesn't make sense.
Better adaptive suspension, stability control, traction control, ... are valuable things, especially on a 900 pound machine.

The build your bike pages kind of says it all, on the BMW web page you select options for safety, ergonomics, lighting etc, on the Harley pages you select trim, paint, chrome, custom wheels ........ all bling.

As Dusty said peak dyno numbers are much more than your Eldo.

Can't say about what you rented but my new 2016 RK gets up and goes. I think stock 1/4 mile numbers are only in the 13's but hey it's an 800# bike.

You obviously didn't get the comment about applying tech where it is WANTED. 

The options for Harley include:

ABS
Cruise
Security
And yes lighting, as I've mentioned. For $50-75 you can convert the rear turn signals to additional running and brake lights.

Their catalog has LED headlights (standard on some models) and driving lights.

Sure there's plenty of chrome and other crap too, so what, it's not my thing but it doesn't mean all the customers only care about that.

I just don't see active suspensions or heated seats as such a big deal.

Doesn't mean the suspension on my RK is poorly designed or not up to the task.

<shrugs>

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Tennmoto

  • Guest
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2017, 08:02:30 PM »
So, you traded a Harley Davidson for a dead in the water Victory because it will have better long term parts availability and a better extended warranty ???
At the time no one knew Polaris was closing Victory. That was a few years ago. I still believe Victory
Was a well engineered motorcycle. I wish they were still around. I have a Sportster 1200R and an
02 California Stone.

Online kingoffleece

  • SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2302
  • Rated 5 STARS Motorcycle Consumer News
    • King of Fleece LLC SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Location: Western New York
Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2017, 08:23:44 PM »
Harley's "lifestyle" image is dying a slow death and it's the death of my generation is taking them to the grave.  HD built it on the growth of baby boomers and the housing boom. They all but went belly up during the recession because the first thing people shed during a recession is their image. Images cost money and if you are out of work and or taking a big pay cut that means by by disposable income. Harley's image has to change and I do not believe they can change it. How do you sell really big chrome motorcycles to the up and coming Millennium's. That are not into that.

 1st quarter 2017 sucked big time. Low sales, left over revenue from 2016 and used MC prices lower. And all this with a 4.3% unemployment rate.
By
Andrew

Tangel

Harley-Davidson Inc.'s revenue fell 14% in the first quarter as the motorcycle maker's retail sales slid in the in the U.S. and abroad.

Milwaukee-based Harley said it faced weak pricing on used motorcycles, a buildup of 2016 inventory at its dealers and sluggish sales in areas of the U.S. that depend on the oil industry, executives said in a call with analysts Tuesday.

Revenue from motorcycles and related products of $1.33 billion came in below analysts' consensus of $1.36 billion.

Earnings per-share fell 23% to $1.05 from the prior year. Net income was $186.4 million, down from $250.5 million in the first quarter last year. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters were expecting earnings of $1.02 per share.Harley maintained its outlook for the year, predicting full-year motorcycle shipments to be flat to down modestly compared to last year. The company didn't release revenue guidance.

The company expects to ship approximately 80,000 to 85,000 motorcycles in the second quarter. That was below the FactSet consensus of 88,160. Harley has been reducing shipments of newer models to encourage dealers to shed existing inventory."

Revenue fell from 1.36 to 1.33 BILLION.  Billion.  That's not a big drop but look at the results.  Their fixed costs must be astronomical to have EPS drop 23%.  I'm no corporate CPA but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night and those financials scare me big time. What does Buffett know that I'm missing?
SplitWeight(tm) seat covers. A King of Fleece LLC product.

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here
 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler with donation credit
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here