Why won't they do it ?..(for Kremmen)

[Devildog]

I love this pic, even if it's only computer-photo shopped.

[beetle]

Huzo, The "soft-edged sport bike" of your fantasy may be nearing reality:  Except that it will be better than just wrapping a sporting chassis around the V9.  There have been multiple reports from Guzzi spokespeople that Guzzi has already created and is testing a road-oriented bike based on the V85 engine. Reportedly this bike is in testing/refinement as we write, and said to be performing "very, very well". 

More heresay? I'll repeat what I said before.

Then we get stories of "I know a guy who's best friends second cousin works for a fellow who's uncle knows a dealer that spoke to a suit from Piaggio who said there's a 200HP water cooled engine in the works."

Sources, please. Blurry pics of imaginary motorcycle accepted.


Except this time it has a 72 RWHP 2V pushrod air cooled motor that despite all the hype about titanium valves et al, is still a prehistoric engine design. I fully expect it will not have rising rate mono shock suspension, but a single fixed shock (still not a "real" motorbike). It will have a fully loaded whiz-bang electronic instrument panel, riddled with CANbus gizmo's that will instill dread into the Luddites.

Pete says it’d be pointless, why then is it not just as pointless turning 1200 Grisoes and Stelvioes into 1400’s ?

Because in the case of embiggening a 1200, Guzzi has already done the hard work. There's no modification of frame, or alternator, or fuse box required. It's about as simple as it gets. You said it,

If it’s not as fast as a Panigale or similar, why own a “mighty” Griso for heaven’s sake, an overweight underpowered slug compared to a Desmosedici Ducati, yet hard nosed Guzzisti who’ve been riding since Christ died, go weak in the nether regions at the very utterance of the Griso name..
BS..

Yes, it's an overweight, underpowered slug. My Griso now has exactly the same amount of underpowered bulk it had immediately prior to the embiggening, but it has a torque curve to be envied, more power and torque than any Guzzi you currently own, or plan to own, and who gives two buggers about fuel economy? It's not a tourer. It's just to make me smile, and boy, does it. Yes, it's knee-weakening. And it's mine.




No, there will be no "pulling in of head", but there might be some sighing and shaking of head.

[Muzz]

I love this pic, even if it's only computer-photo shopped.

Me too.  Later iteration of my B750.

[Huzo]

One feeds the other the end result is instead of enjoying the ride you've got to constantly manage your range.

How do the Griso boys manage ?

[Murray]

How do the Griso boys manage ?

Seriously? I'm assuming you've had a few afternoon sherberts, I'll spell it out the Aprilia's use fuel at about 30-40% faster than the griso's because the engine makes more power/ depending on mean throttle position thus they don't go as far.

[Smithy]

If they do a well styled road/sport version of the V85TT I am in..

[Tusayan]

I agree that although a well tuned sport comes pretty dammed close to a Daytona engine, IMHO it just does not have the same urgency. The 4V is just much more fun and feels faster. The tone, the revs, the way the power comes on is a bigger rush for me.

The Daytona/RS in either engine form is much more powerful, the US version with original style cams makes 15 more HP than a Sport assuming only velocity stack extensions, different rear exhaust and fuel mapping to match - 93 RWHP versus 78 RWHP, and it’s not easy to get more from the Sport.  The C-kit version of the RS makes another 7 HP or so, just over 100 RWHP.  The 4V/cylinder engine is very responsive to minor mods whereas the pushrod engine is not, and that makes the Daytona feel substantially more capable as a sport bike... assuming it’s been set up right.  The smaller displacement engine is also smoother.  Way back when the magazines tested completely stock bikes and it was really only a indication of how badly they were set up as delivered.

A well sorted 1100 Sport is lighter handling than a Daytona RS but assuming suitable tires are installed either bike has neutral steering, no instability and in my experience can be hustled down the road equally well.  They are very sensitive to the type of tires installed (I have about 15-20K miles of sport riding on each model with various different tires)

I think Aprilias are completely unappealing given the price and Piaggio company ownership - there is no chance of me buying one when the Japanese build Japanese-style bikes better and for less money.  However I think the existence of Aprilia will continue to be a thorn in the side of anybody who would like Guzzi to be a full line manufacturer of Italian-style bikes. My bet is on a street standard version of the V85TT within the next two years, not a sport bike.  I’d be happy to be wrong!

[Huzo]

Seriously? I'm assuming you've had a few afternoon sherberts, I'll spell it out the Aprilia's use fuel at about 30-40% faster than the griso's because the engine makes more power/ depending on mean throttle position thus they don't go as far.

I was referring to the fact that an MGS has the same fuel capacity as a Griso, I wasn’t referring to an Aprilia at any stage.
You were.

[Old Jock]

The Daytona/RS in either engine form is much more powerful, the US version with original style cams makes 15 more HP than a Sport assuming only velocity stack extensions, different rear exhaust and fuel mapping to match - 93 RWHP versus 78 RWHP, and it’s not easy to get more from the Sport.  The C-kit version of the RS makes another 7 HP or so, just over 100 RWHP.  The 4V/cylinder engine is very responsive to minor mods whereas the pushrod engine is not, and that makes the Daytona feel substantially more capable as a sport bike... assuming it’s been set up right.  The smaller displacement engine is also smoother.  Way back when the magazines tested completely stock bikes and it was really only a indication of how badly they were set up as delivered.

A well sorted 1100 Sport is lighter handling than a Daytona RS but assuming suitable tires are installed either bike has neutral steering, no instability and in my experience can be hustled down the road equally well.  They are very sensitive to the type of tires installed (I have about 15-20K miles of sport riding on each model with various different tires)

I think Aprilias are completely unappealing given the price and Piaggio company ownership - there is no chance of me buying one when the Japanese build Japanese-style bikes better and for less money.  However I think the existence of Aprilia will continue to be a thorn in the side of anybody who would like Guzzi to be a full line manufacturer of Italian-style bikes. My bet is on a street standard version of the V85TT within the next two years, not a sport bike.  I’d be happy to be wrong!

I was referring to a stock Daytona Vs 1100 Sporti, I agree that a C kitted bike is a completely different kettle of fish, iin terms of performance

When comparing handling I was referring to the early Daytona Vs the Australia. That's my only real experience, although I've had brief rides on  later Daytonas I've not done enough miles to form an opinion

Which version of Daytona are you referring to Tusayan?

Maybe we just beg to differ but I ran the Dayona on a couple of different tyre types, and totalled about 12-14k miles on it . The bike was one of the first into the UK.

It was a fun well handling bike just as long as you chose your route and stayed clear of roads with continuous tight bends, I enjoyed my time with it. There was nothing dangerous about the handling, once it was rolling it was extremely stable and predictable, perhaps too stable. However the early bikes handling was slooooooooow.

Maybe it is just me, I'm not doubting your opinion one bit. Perhaps you are just a better rider and able to extract performance I'm not, which would not be hard.

BUT you will never convince me that an early stock Daytona could (or can) hold it's own on a tight road for mile after mile after mile. It was the bike's Achillies heal, it didn't sour me towards it, there were a lot of complaints about it and Guzzi fixed it on later models.

Anyway I'll get ma coat

John

[Huzo]

It's just to make me smile, and boy, does it. Yes, it's knee-weakening. And it's mine.
No, there will be no "pulling in of head", but there might be some sighing and shaking of head.

Ok then..
If that’s the final line of the saga, then the same can be offered in defence of those who can manage a grin at the thought of a “prehistoric engined” V85, (you know, the one we were never going to see.. )
So my 2VPC Norge or my stinking old Mk2 must be in the same bracket as your locomotive engined Griso, because it makes me grin, (so does Fawlty Towers..) and it’s mine, (so is the sponge I wash my bike with..)
Although the likes of the V85 with it’s lousy 2VPC layout will always attract torrents of manufactured vitriol and thinly disguised stealing of phraseology, from those who are knowledgeable enough to hold an informed opinion and the rest who want to attach themselves to the coat tails of the established luminaries (so as not to taste their wrath), may I point out that the “mighty Griso” whether standard or punched out a bit, is still a relatively prehistoric offering.
It just has a couple more valves and the cam/s a bit closer to your arse.
Nonetheless a wonderful display of engineering acumen and electronic wizardry to be as successful as it demonstrably is, but just a crank of the lens to keep it all in perspective..
Sure the 1400 pulls like a 14 year old boy with a Penthouse and drinks like a fish, but it’d bloody well want to with a displacement like that, would it not ?

[Huzo]

Seriously? I'm assuming you've had a few afternoon sherberts, I'll spell it out the Aprilia's use fuel at about 30-40% faster than the griso's because the engine makes more power/ depending on mean throttle position thus they don't go as far.

Ok Muzz.
No need to spell anything out.
If I can drag you back kicking and screaming to the point I (attempted) to make..
The comment was made by some bugger that the MGS would be worthless as a road bike because of the piss weak fuel range and I (rather bravely) dared to suggest that a Griso seems to be the weapon of choice of some very discerning Guzzisti, that do have a solid grasp of the difference between shit and clay..(an Aussieism for some bastard who knows damn well what he’s talking about..).
So consequently a mythical Griso engined MGS would have the same range as a Griso...No ?
So what does that do to the above line of reasoning ?

I’ll ask this question AGAIN...
If Roper had an MGS rolling chassis in one greasy paw and a Griso donk in the other..
Who here would bet against him making it work, he’s done cleverer shit...
That is all I was trying to ask, but as usual extraneous bullshit has been injected into the topic so as to steer it in a direction that it was not intended to go.
And y’all reckon I’m a troll...?
Jeeez.
And for the record ?
No, I’m not on the piss Muzz..

[Huzo]

I love this pic, even if it's only computer-photo shopped.

If Tamburini got hold of it (916 Ducati and MV Augusta F4), and rounded off the angular sharp edges a bit, with a slight increase in faring size for visual balance, it’d be getting closer.
As it is, it smacks of a red ZX 10 Kawasaki or similar in it’s styling cues..
The fairing looks like something they found under their Dad’s bench and glued it on..

[Turin]

Huzo Wrote:

I’ll ask this question AGAIN...
If Roper had an MGS rolling chassis in one greasy paw and a Griso donk in the other..
Who here would bet against him making it work, he’s done cleverer shit...

I think the lack of response is your answer. You did ask who would bet against him. I wouldn't.

[Huzo]

Huzo Wrote:
I think the lack of response is your answer. You did ask who would bet against him. I wouldn't.

I don’t want to be accused of kissing his arse, (although I’ve seen worse.. )
But I’d have a quiet 10 Grand on him..
Furthermore.
I’ll bet my flat tappets that if Beetle wanted to, he could fart in the general direction of the ECU and for a trifling increase in fuel usage per kilometre, could produce a map that would result in the best looking Guzzi ever built of that ilk, that would power wheelie out of tight hairpins...
Oh dear..
Excuse me, I have to duck off for a few minutes...

[Tusayan]

I was referring to a stock Daytona Vs 1100 Sporti, I agree that a C kitted bike is a completely different kettle of fish, iin terms of performance

When comparing handling I was referring to the early Daytona Vs the Australia. That's my only real experience, although I've had brief rides on  later Daytonas I've not done enough miles to form an opinion

Which version of Daytona are you referring to Tusayan?

Maybe we just beg to differ but I ran the Dayona on a couple of different tyre types, and totalled about 12-14k miles on it . The bike was one of the first into the UK.

It was a fun well handling bike just as long as you chose your route and stayed clear of roads with continuous tight bends, I enjoyed my time with it. There was nothing dangerous about the handling, once it was rolling it was extremely stable and predictable, perhaps too stable. However the early bikes handling was slooooooooow.

Maybe it is just me, I'm not doubting your opinion one bit. Perhaps you are just a better rider and able to extract performance I'm not, which would not be hard.

BUT you will never convince me that an early stock Daytona could (or can) hold it's own on a tight road for mile after mile after mile. It was the bike's Achillies heal, it didn't sour me towards it, there were a lot of complaints about it and Guzzi fixed it on later models.

Anyway I'll get ma coat

John

Mine is a US spec Daytona RS that makes 93 RWHP.   It is a better, faster, smoother sport bike than the 78 RWHP injected 1100 Sport it replaced.

[Huzo]

Mine is a US spec Daytona RS that makes 93 RWHP.   It is a better, faster, smoother sport bike than the 78 RWHP injected 1100 Sport it replaced.

That’s nice..

[Tusayan]

If Tamburini got hold of it (916 Ducati and MV Augusta F4), and rounded off the angular sharp edges a bit, with a slight increase in faring size for visual balance, it’d be getting closer.

Massimo Tamburini won't be getting hold of anything, given that he's dead.  In his lifetime, his work was the exact opposite of retro and I don't think he would have put himself within 100 meters of anything that copied the past.

[Murray]

I was referring to the fact that an MGS has the same fuel capacity as a Griso, I wasn’t referring to an Aprilia at any stage.
You were.

I haven't sat down and dnone the numbers but the MGS likes to drink at a track day you will fit another 12 to 14 litres in at lunchtime if the leave it you'll get the wonderful sounds of silience half way through a session. The other quirk of the MGS actually its not a qurick its really !@#$ed is the tank is black plastic, the consturction of the tank is not the problem the colour is.

No fuel gauge no low fuel light and unlike carbs which will give you cough cough splutter when the FI pump runs out of pressure it just stops. Trying to determine the level down through the rather skinny filler neck is a PITA. The only real way is to calibrate a stick or fill it, filling it is a bit hit and miss as the tank goes from a very large volume down to a very small filler neck very suddenly so you don't get a lot of warning. Normally however you are at a track and have trailered it to the track with associated support parafinalia like some extra fuel which at worse you are a couple of kms away from. Not wondering if you can do 30-60 kms on the low fuel light.

[Huzo]

Massimo Tamburini won't be getting hold of anything, given that he's dead.  In his lifetime, his work was the exact opposite of retro and I don't think he would have put himself within 100 meters of anything that copied the past.

Well in the light of that, I guess we’ll never know.
But I’d like to hope that you get my point.
Nice one though.. I wish i’d known that, I guess that makes everything I’ve said, a complete nonsense.

[Penderic]

Could be the reason ....



 

[Huzo]

I haven't sat down and dnone the numbers but the MGS likes to drink at a track day you will fit another 12 to 14 litres in at lunchtime if the leave it you'll get the wonderful sounds of silience half way through a session. The other quirk of the MGS actually its not a qurick its really !@#$ed is the tank is black plastic, the consturction of the tank is not the problem the colour is.

No fuel gauge no low fuel light and unlike carbs which will give you cough cough splutter when the FI pump runs out of pressure it just stops. Trying to determine the level down through the rather skinny filler neck is a PITA. The only real way is to calibrate a stick or fill it, filling it is a bit hit and miss as the tank goes from a very large volume down to a very small filler neck very suddenly so you don't get a lot of warning. Normally however you are at a track and have trailered it to the track with associated support parafinalia like some extra fuel which at worse you are a couple of kms away from. Not wondering if you can do 30-60 kms on the low fuel light.

Trivialities my dear Muzz.
My flight of fancy if you recall, was to have a Griso donk in the mythical MGS, so the fuel slurpage would be as it is in a Griso.
I don’t give a rats about track days, just the look of the darn thing is intoxicating, remember when passion ruled your commonsense ?
If it’s as quick as a well ridden Griso, you should be able to keep your licence long enough to get home for tea..
Look, it really is this simple..
If Roper decided that HE wanted to put a Griso donk in an MGS, could he do it ?
I am not seeking the opinion of others as to the worth of such a creation.
And.
Is the V85 or the expected road version that much different to the V9 based roadster that I (and others), posed as a viable creation.
If it’s too much of a stretch to confine ourselves to that empirical idea, let’s just forget it and farkle our Cali’s and other such erection inducing pursuits..

[Fnq1000]

Hi Huzo
Rather than an MGSed Griso, how about this very nice 1200 Sport transformation?

http://www.guareschimoto.it/gc-corse-kit-varano/

I personally like the idea of a V85 LeMans knock off.......errr..... ...tribute. Given who it is catering to, clip ons not too low and rear sets not too high.

Surely it is time for something like this, V7 'specials' surely can't have too many more variants left in them?

Cheers
Jason

[Huzo]

Hi Huzo
Rather than an MGSed Griso, how about this very nice 1200 Sport transformation?

http://www.guareschimoto.it/gc-corse-kit-varano/

I personally like the idea of a V85 LeMans knock off.......errr..... ...tribute. Given who it is catering to, clip ons not too low and rear sets not too high.

Surely it is time for something like this, V7 'specials' surely can't have too many more variants left in them?

Cheers
Jason

Berloody hell..!
That’s not far off the money.

[Murray]

Trivialities my dear Muzz.
My flight of fancy if you recall, was to have a Griso donk in the mythical MGS, so the fuel slurpage would be as it is in a Griso.
I don’t give a rats about track days, just the look of the darn thing is intoxicating, remember when passion ruled your commonsense ?

To the latter when I forked out for my MGS, a Griso donk would be utterly disappointing in an MGS chassi's.

[Old Jock]

Hi Huzo
Rather than an MGSed Griso, how about this very nice 1200 Sport transformation?

http://www.guareschimoto.it/gc-corse-kit-varano/

I personally like the idea of a V85 LeMans knock off.......errr..... ...tribute. Given who it is catering to, clip ons not too low and rear sets not too high.

Surely it is time for something like this, V7 'specials' surely can't have too many more variants left in them?

Cheers
Jason

I posted the link to the WG thread on that back bike at #86 and it went completly un-noticed 

I really like the look of that machine it appeals to me more than an MGS. If I had the cash I'd go for it, except I'm getting too old and still have to sort out a bunch of issues on the bikes I already own.

Making it road legal wouldn't scare me it's far from being beyond the wit of man to slap on a tail-light and an HID projector lamp or a reflector in the fairing, similar to these

[Huzo]

To the latter when I forked out for my MGS, a Griso donk would be utterly disappointing in an MGS chassi's.

Not to me Muzz.

[stubbie]

One problem when you start building bikes like the MGS and Panigale is cost. These bikes usually sell for about $35000+ which puts them out of reach of most people.

[Huzo]

One problem when you start building bikes like the MGS and Panigale is cost. These bikes usually sell for about $35000+ which puts them out of reach of most people.

Dunno mate..
People pay that for Harleys and similar...?..
What’s your taste extend to ?
A streetable MGS 01 or a bucket of pus ?

[ScepticalScotty]

Just give us the road version of the V85TT. Im hoping there will be a Monza, a standard looking one, and a Mini Norge. Then maybe later a 4V Lemans version.

[rocker59]

Just give us the road version of the V85TT. Im hoping there will be a Monza, a standard looking one, and a Mini Norge. Then maybe later a 4V Lemans version.

I'm sceptical, Scotty.