Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?

[Nick]

No. Previous models did not specify 5W-40, so far as I can tell, so your suggestion doesn't seem plausible in this case.

Moto

The 5W-40 recommendation was not simply a copying of the one for the similar V11, since that was 20W 50. It was just a routine substitution of a more modern oil for the same basic engine.

The manual for the 2004 V11 specifies Agip Racing 4T SAE 5W-40. Page 156
The manual for the 2003-4 Cali EV also specifies Agip Racing 4T SAE 5W-40. Page 170

[Kev m]

No. Previous models did not specify 5W-40, so far as I can tell, so your suggestion doesn't seem plausible in this case.

The introduction to the engine in a company presentation makes clear that the 1100 is very similar to the V11, which carried a very mundane oil specification in its workshop manual:

Engine sump 3,5 "Agip 4T SUPER RACING SAE 20W50" oil

This is not much different from the T-3's specification 30 years  earlier:

Agip SINT 2000 SAE 10W 50

Here's how Guzzi described the differences between the new Breva/Griso engine and the earlier V11, in  the so-called Breva 1100 Service Manual, which was really a set of powerpoint slides:

The recommended engine oil for the Breva/Griso engine in that early document is also Agip RACING 4T 5W-40.

The 5W-40 recommendation was not simply a copying of the one for the similar V11, since that was 20W 50. It was just a routine substitution of a more modern oil for the same basic engine.

Another factor that might have played a role in the eventual change to 10W60 is a desire to make the Guzzi 1100 seem more exotic than it really is. If it needs such expensive oil, it must be a cutting-edge design, right? The answer is no, it's just the old design being "oil-engineered" to seem like a new one, just like cars have been "badge engineered" into new ones from times long ago.

These comments of course wouldn't apply to the 1200 8V engine, which is a different animal.

Moto

See Nick's post.

You see how someone can be VERY CERTAIN something is true, but then some more information arises?

Again, maybe it's just my career in writing manuals for these sorts of things which is why I jumped to that potential conclusion early on, but it sure seems plausible.

Of course there's another possibility. They purposely spec'd the oil they had been using, but didn't completely vet it until their "beta" testers (the owners of new bikes) started showing some problems/failures and then they changed the spec.

That tech bulletin that came out in 2006 MIGHT have been because of typos, but it equally could have been because they changed the recommendation. Sure it could have just been because of a new corporate deal with AGIP, but it could have been because of changes in AGIP's formulation, because of things learned in the field etc.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure. Though I'll point out the actual WORDING of the tech bulletin tells you to check the owner's manuals and then says it takes the liberty of reminding you what the correct recommendations ARE and then lists the 10-60 for the Breva/Norge/Griso. Which again suggests anything else shown in earlier copies was a typo and not the actual intended spec. Again, maybe this is why I reached that conclusion a decade ago.

[Nick]

Just as an FYI:
The 2006 Norge manual (2007 in the US) does recommend Agip Racing 4T 10W-60, but it also states:
As an alternative to the recommended oils, you can also use brand name oils with performance that meets or exceeds the CCMC G-4 A.P.I. SG standards

[Moto]

See Nick's post.

You see how someone can be VERY CERTAIN something is true, but then some more information arises?

Um. I didn't say I was VERY CERTAIN. I said SO FAR AS I CAN TELL. (Though I didn't resort to ALL CAPS.)

I copied the text "Engine sump 3,5 `Agip 4T SUPER RACING SAE 20W50'" oil directly from an edition of the V11 Sport manual on my home computer (not accessible right now). So the change to 10W 40 seems to have occurred during the run of the V11 Sport, by 2014, per the evidence in Nick's first post.

The appearance of 10W 40 in multiple early 1100 Breva/Griso documents [the aforementioned Service Manual, the Owner's manual of my Griso 1100, the 1100 (Breva/Griso) Engine Manual, the Griso 1100 Workshop Manual, to name four], COULD have been a typo that was mindlessly copied by the authors of the various documents. But I see no technical reason at all that the Breva/Griso 1100 motor, essentially the same as the V11 Sport's (per my previous evidence) would have needed 10W 60. So I think it was originally intended that the "new" engine use the same oil as the very similar V11 Sport's. It was a copying all right, but not an erroneous copying of text, just a continuation of the existing 10W 40 recommendation for the motor.

I'm not really interested in the history per se. What I am basically suggesting is that the change to 10W 60 from 10W 40 for the Breva/Griso 1100 might not have been related to any engineering improvements in its engine (which was essentially the same as previous big blocks), but may have been done as a routine reaction to the offering of new oils by Agip, a pattern seen in the past, or to "rev up" the apparent spec of the motor in sales brochures.  It could also have been done just to simplify the oil specifications across the whole range, once the 1200 2V Norge was deemed to need it, in 2006.

The 750 small blocks eventually also acquired a 10W 60 specification, though I don't know when. Perhaps this also occurred for non-performance related reasons like the ones I'm suggesting. Is the small block also a high-performance fire breather?

Now if there were lubrication-related failures of the V11 Sport series, I might be wrong about this. But if there weren't (and I don't remember any), I might be right. After all, the V11 Sports had a relatively long run using 20W 50 and 10W 40.

As I said, I don't know FOR CERTAIN and I CONTINUE TO USE 10W 60 in my Griso 1100.

I NOW RETURN to my regular use of the caps key, and to the other work I need to get done.

Moto
 

[KiwiKev]

Thanks guys, it's 3am here and I can't sleep.

Reading this thread has put me off nicely zzzzzzzzz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kev m]

Um. I didn't say I was VERY CERTAIN. I

My bad, that's how I read the response. No biggie - no offense taken or intended and hope you feel the same.

[Moto]

My bad, that's how I read the response. No biggie - no offense taken or intended and hope you feel the same.

No problem. I just finished up that post, so it's now different from what I accidentally submitted. None of this is a big deal, though I think there is a reasonable case to suspect the 1100 Breva/Griso never needed 10W 60, as my revised posting (above) argues more clearly.

Now back to work for me, and for those of you in the Antipodes, back to sleep!

Moto

[Kev m]

Moto there is something you keep ignoring with your position.

You seem to be suggesting the oil spec ONLY has to do with the mechanical design of the motor and therefore something similar mechanically couldn't need a different oil.

However the 2006 service bulletin opens by mentioning another reason for oil specs "tightening homologation" meaning state of tune.

Simply put the fuel mapping alone could change combustion temperatures requiring an oil with better resistance to thermal breakdown and better performance for those hotter temperatures.

[Tom]

Thanks guys, it's 3am here and I can't sleep.

Reading this thread has put me off nicely zzzzzzzzz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From the lowest part of the U.S. in the Northern Hemispere.  Totally understand.

[Ncdan]

Moto there is something you keep ignoring with your position.

You seem to be suggesting the oil spec ONLY has to do with the mechanical design of the motor and therefore something similar mechanically couldn't need a different oil.

However the 2006 service bulletin opens by mentioning another reason for oil specs "tightening homologation" meaning state of tune.

Simply put the fuel mapping alone could change combustion temperatures requiring an oil with better resistance to thermal breakdown and better performance for those hotter temperatures.

Now that's a fact Kev, tuning most definitely effects the heat ranges of not only these bikes but Harley's as I experienced first hand.

[Moto]

Moto there is something you keep ignoring with your position.

You seem to be suggesting the oil spec ONLY has to do with the mechanical design of the motor and therefore something similar mechanically couldn't need a different oil.

However the 2006 service bulletin opens by mentioning another reason for oil specs "tightening homologation" meaning state of tune.

Simply put the fuel mapping alone could change combustion temperatures requiring an oil with better resistance to thermal breakdown and better performance for those hotter temperatures.

Sure, it's possible, though the V11 Sport and Griso are in the same state of tune so far as I can see, both in mechanical specs and output. Doesn't explain the 10W60 for the 750 V7 Classic.

I think my explanation makes more sense. <shrug>

Moto

[Socalrob]

Well, my new V7iii is probably toast.  At the first oil change I let the dealer use 10-60 Motul, which is their preferred oil as they sell/service mostly Ducatis. 

Maybe all is not lost and I can mitigate damage by changing to Agip on the next oil change.

[pete roper]

(Gurgle!) I really hope you're joking?

[Socalrob]

(Gurgle!) I really hope you're joking?

I hope so too.

[rodekyll]

I hope so too.

 

[Kev m]

Sure, it's possible, though the V11 Sport and Griso are in the same state of tune so far as I can see, both in mechanical specs and output. Doesn't explain the 10W60 for the 750 V7 Classic.

I think my explanation makes more sense. <shrug>

Moto

No they are not in the same state of tune it they are meeting different emissions standards.

[oldbike54]

 Never use Ducati oil in a Moto Guzzi , it will cause the cam belts to break leading to power band failure 

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

Power Band -- like Journey or Cheap Trick?  I thought they were too big to fail.   

[MotoBug]

Well, my new V7iii is probably toast.  At the first oil change I let the dealer use 10-60 Motul, which is their preferred oil as they sell/service mostly Ducatis. 

Maybe all is not lost and I can mitigate damage by changing to Agip on the next oil change.

Does the V7III use different oil to the V7II? A few of us with V7II's have mentioned using Motul 10w60.

[jcctx]

Could it possibly be just a "deal" between the two companies?????? NAGHHHHHH; say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!

[Huzo]

A question to Pete Roper.. My Norge has now done 120,000 and I've used what we have here as Motul 7100 (previously 5100) ALL of it's life, it uses virtually no oil between changes 10,000 k intervals. Does that surprise you at all, or is it not unusual? I'm currently in bed and can't check, but I think it's 10w60.

[pete roper]

It surprises me not a jot.

[oldbike54]

A question to Pete Roper.. My Norge has now done 120,000 and I've used what we have here as Motul 7100 (previously 5100) ALL of it's life, it uses virtually no oil between changes 10,000 k intervals. Does that surprise you at all, or is it not unusual? I'm currently in bed and can't check, but I think it's 10w60.

 So like 74,000 miles . My old Jackal is approaching twice that with no oil burning , you Metric guys trying to impress us Imperial folks , sheesh 

 Dusty

[Socalrob]

Does the V7III use different oil to the V7II? A few of us with V7II's have mentioned using Motul 10w60.

I have no idea.  I have a total of 2 months Guzzi ownership under my belt.  KTM guys (I own a 690 Enduro) really like the Motul oil, and here I learn Agypt is the brand of preference.  My head spins.

[Tom]

AGIP.

[Socalrob]

AGIP.

Are you certain.  At the prices I see for it my name may be closer to the truth.

Just kidding, I will likely move to it next oil change.

Next question of course, what interval between changes using this liquid gold product?

[Tom]

Whatever the interval the factory says for the bike.     If it's API compatible....use it. 

[TimmyTheHog]

Unless my bottle label is lying to me, Motul 10W60 7100 is okay as it is rated as SN yet reverse compatible to SG...

[Tom]

 

[Moto]

AGIP.

Agip has been rebranded as Eni. (Agip was a subsidiary of Eni; both are Italian acronyms.) A pdf brochure on their motorcycle oils is here:

https://www.eni.com/en_NA/products-services/automotive-lubricants/engine-oils/bikes/bikes.shtml

I believe the correct substitute for the Agip branded oil for our bikes is this:

Eni 4T i-Ride MotoGP 10W-60

I have bottles of it on my shelf. Specs are:

API SG JASO MA MA2

But there are also these other two in the brochure, w/ no specs listed:

Eni 4T i-Ride 10W-60 [listed for Piaggio products]

Eni i-Ride Aprilia Racing 10W-60

Evidently Eni is up to cross-branding w/ Piaggio for marketing purposes. When I bought my last batch, I think Moto Guzzi was mentioned as being in need of the MotoGP type I bought. (Obviously, my two-valve per cylinder ditch pump would be in need of the same stuff that Eni claims is used in MotoGP bikes, price be damned.)

Moto