Author Topic: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .  (Read 14594 times)

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28301
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2017, 06:47:07 PM »
I think we're talking around the same issue from different perspectives.

I still say Honda means very little to Harley because Harley isn't going to overnight compete in 20 new market segments.

Yes if Harley is to grow they need to expand into new segments which will mean competing with Honda or JAPanInc or other brands.

But they don't have to compete in every segment right away.

And Scotty, for the umpteenth time it's not about "cutting edge technology" except for in maybe one or two of those 20 agreements (really only Sportbikes). Certainly the 300-500cc segment isn't about high tech bikes.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2017, 09:42:45 PM »
KTM 390 Duke with a single cylinder 373ccs,  40 ponies at 9000 RPMS comes in at 360# wet at $5200.  A great city bike that can handle 80 MPH all day and handles like a dream. I am ready to buy one just for the fun of it. And as for high tech it this review says KTM has its share of it.
 http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ktm/2017-ktm-390-duke-review.html


"Riding the 390 Duke is almost completely delightful. Clutch effort is light, the engine pulls cleanly from low revs, and gearshifts are light. The clutch�s slipper function makes ill-timed or aggressive downshifts nearly foolproof. The Duke excels at squirting through the tight confines of urban traffic, and it has plenty enough power to cruise at 80-per while its counterbalanced engine keeps vibration levels from becoming oppressive. Carving a twisty road is a riot, with responsive steering enabling changes of direction quicker than a border collie while maintaining the stability of a basset hound. It�s truly a wonderful backroad scratcher that flatters its rider.
But you�ve got to look pretty damn closely to find fault with the new 390 Duke. It�s almost as if KTM took to heart the nits we had to pick with the previous version and refined one of our favorite small-displacement roadsters of all time into something almost debonair, which is quite a feat for a motorcycle that retails for just $5,299. The little Duke has earned the first perfect 10 score I�ve awarded in our Value category."
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:48:50 PM by redrider90 »
Red 90 Mille GT


Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28301
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2017, 06:03:25 AM »
KTM 390 Duke with a single cylinder 373ccs,  40 ponies at 9000 RPMS comes in at 360# wet at $5200.  A great city bike that can handle 80 MPH all day and handles like a dream. I am ready to buy one just for the fun of it. And as for high tech it this review says KTM has its share of it.
 http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ktm/2017-ktm-390-duke-review.html


"Riding the 390 Duke is almost completely delightful. Clutch effort is light, the engine pulls cleanly from low revs, and gearshifts are light. The clutch�s slipper function makes ill-timed or aggressive downshifts nearly foolproof. The Duke excels at squirting through the tight confines of urban traffic, and it has plenty enough power to cruise at 80-per while its counterbalanced engine keeps vibration levels from becoming oppressive. Carving a twisty road is a riot, with responsive steering enabling changes of direction quicker than a border collie while maintaining the stability of a basset hound. It�s truly a wonderful backroad scratcher that flatters its rider.
But you�ve got to look pretty damn closely to find fault with the new 390 Duke. It�s almost as if KTM took to heart the nits we had to pick with the previous version and refined one of our favorite small-displacement roadsters of all time into something almost debonair, which is quite a feat for a motorcycle that retails for just $5,299. The little Duke has earned the first perfect 10 score I�ve awarded in our Value category."
I'm starting to think no one understands "cutting edge" technology. What's cutting edge, the DASH?

There are no state secrets in the tech as far as I can tell from the article, slipper clutch (old), RBW (old), ABS (old), what's cutting edge?

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline oldbike54

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24693
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2017, 08:52:45 AM »
 The MoCo certainly doesn't .

 Dusty
Transmit the message , to the receiver
Hope for an answer someday

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2017, 09:15:55 AM »
I'm starting to think no one understands "cutting edge" technology. What's cutting edge, the DASH?

There are no state secrets in the tech as far as I can tell from the article, slipper clutch (old), RBW (old), ABS (old), what's cutting edge?

You quoted me but I did not use "cutting edge" I said high tech which is quite different in its meaning. Sounds like you are having a battle of words with yourself as you used the phrase "cutting edge". Fact is this is bike for all of its 373 ccs has a bit of technology built into it. I put it up there as a bike that HOG is going to have to compete with and or surpass if it wants a slice of that ever growing 300-500cc market. I posted links to another dozen bikes in the same class all with good reviews. Again the context of my posting those bikes was about the future of the growth sector in Asia and Africa and how many companies are already ahead of HOG and are producing these bikes. HOG is at best on the drawing board:  that is if they are planning on getting into that market. And if the are not going into that market they are ignoring the majority of the growth in the MC industry.
It's amazing you can cry about "cutting edge" on a bike this review said 'The little Duke has earned the first perfect 10 score I�ve awarded in our Value category."
Perfect 10 in value (not necessarily cutting edge) is what it is going to sell MC to that market.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 09:47:52 AM by redrider90 »
Red 90 Mille GT

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28301
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2017, 09:37:46 AM »
You quoted me but I did not use "cutting edge" I said high tech which is quite different in its meaning. Sounds like you are having a battle of words with yourself as you used the phrase "cutting edge". Fact is this is bike for all of its 373 ccs has a bit of technology built into it. I put it up there as a bike that HOG is going to have to compete with and or surpass if it wants a slice of that ever growing 300-500cc market. I posted links to another dozen bikes in the same class all with good reviews. Again the context of my posting those bikes was about the future of the growth sector in Asia and Africa and how many companies are already ahead of HOG and are producing these bikes. HOG is at best on the drawing board:  that is if they are planning on getting into that market. And if the are not going into that market they are ignoring the majority of the growth in the MC industry.

I'm responding to you and scotty, and others in this thread who as a whole seem to put forth this concept that technology is somehow escaping Harley or beyond their grasp. The KTM is an example of a segment of bike that is growing for sure, and if Harley decides to compete in that segment they'll certainly need to do some things differently. But we don't know that's the direction they will take so it seems silly to hold it as some sacred cow in this discussion of technology, especially since there's nothing that Harley or any other manufacturer couldn't decide to use on a new platform.

I really have no dog in this hunt other than dispelling some mis-perceptions about the current product and what "technology" means to them or possible future products.

Bottom line the vast majority of motorcycles sold worldwide, including by Honda, doesn't employ a lot of tech that isn't available to all the OEMS. And frankly, the vast majority doesn't use all that much tech, new leading products like the KTM being an example, and maybe a smart example of how OEMs might be able to attract the "tech" obsessed younger generations.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2017, 09:47:19 AM »
I'm responding to you and scotty, and others in this thread who as a whole seem to put forth this concept that technology is somehow escaping Harley or beyond their grasp. The KTM is an example of a segment of bike that is growing for sure, and if Harley decides to compete in that segment they'll certainly need to do some things differently. But we don't know that's the direction they will take so it seems silly to hold it as some sacred cow in this discussion of technology, especially since there's nothing that Harley or any other manufacturer couldn't decide to use on a new platform.

I really have no dog in this hunt other than dispelling some mis-perceptions about the current product and what "technology" means to them or possible future products.

 
Bottom line the vast majority of motorcycles sold worldwide, including by Honda, doesn't employ a lot of tech that isn't available to all the OEMS. And frankly, the vast majority doesn't use all that much tech, new leading products like the KTM being an example, and maybe a smart example of how OEMs might be able to attract the "tech" obsessed younger generations.
There are no misperceptions on my part. I continue to beat the drum of business model and HOG is not in a market they should have been in years ago
.I never said technology was or is escaping HOG what I have said is HOG as a business model is not making motorcycles of any sort with any technology for the entry level largest growth market world wide. Technology be damned if you cannot put a bike in the showroom for someone to buy. With share prices off 15% in 4 months and growth in their biggest market declining they have to compete in areas they have never competed before. They just are not making the bikes where much of the world is buying. As a business model they are sliding and may be approaching a free fall. Meanwhile even BMW has jumped into the fray and is releasing it's first entry level  new 2018 BMW G 310 R - FIRST RIDE REVIEW ($4700)
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598
Liquid cooled, 2 channel ABS and "The naked street G 310R is powered by a single-cylinder, liquid-cooled, fuel-injected 313cc engine, which makes 33.6bhp of power and 28Nm of torque. The unique feature of this engine is its architecture - with the cylinder tilted backward in open-deck design with the cylinder head turned 180 degrees. This is said to make the weight balanced With a counter balancer, expect a smooth, free revving engine. BMW claims a top speed of 145kmph and fuel efficiency of around 30-35kmpl." Hum maybe that is not "cutting edge technology" but it is darn sure better than anything HOG is producing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/606311/motorcycle-sales-projection-globally-by-region/
with a very interesting graph "Projected motorcycle sales worldwide in 2018, by major region (in 1,000 units)"
Global motorcycle sales - forecast by region 2018
Asia Pacific.                        108,800
Africa and Middle.                 10,100
Central and South America    8,125
Western Europe                    3,030
North American                     1930
Eastern Europe                        414
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 10:08:13 AM by redrider90 »
Red 90 Mille GT

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28301
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2017, 10:19:56 AM »
There are no misperceptions on my part. I continue to beat the drum of business model and HOG is not in a market they should have been in years ago
.I never said technology was or is escaping HOG what I have said is HOG as a business model is not making motorcycles of any sort with any technology for the entry level largest growth market world wide. Technology be damned if you cannot put a bike in the showroom for someone to buy. With share prices off 15% in 4 months and growth in their biggest market declining they have to compete in areas they have never competed before. They just are not making the bikes where much of the world is buying. As a business model they are sliding and may be approaching a free fall. Meanwhile even BMW has jumped into the fray and is releasing it's first entry level  new 2018 BMW G 310 R - FIRST RIDE REVIEW ($4700)
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598
Liquid cooled, 2 channel ABS and "The naked street G 310R is powered by a single-cylinder, liquid-cooled, fuel-injected 313cc engine, which makes 33.6bhp of power and 28Nm of torque. The unique feature of this engine is its architecture - with the cylinder tilted backward in open-deck design with the cylinder head turned 180 degrees. This is said to make the weight balanced With a counter balancer, expect a smooth, free revving engine. BMW claims a top speed of 145kmph and fuel efficiency of around 30-35kmpl." Hum maybe that is not "cutting edge technology" but it is darn sure better than anything HOG is producing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/606311/motorcycle-sales-projection-globally-by-region/
with a very interesting graph "Projected motorcycle sales worldwide in 2018, by major region (in 1,000 units)"
Global motorcycle sales - forecast by region 2018
Asia Pacific.                        108,800
Africa and Middle.                 10,100
Central and South America    8,125
Western Europe                    3,030
North American                     1930
Eastern Europe                        414

I actually have no disagreement with anything here, or didn't until you used the term "better" which is too subjective and a bit silly when comparing an existing product to vapor ware since as you said Harley ISN'T in that market but should be.

I do wonder if they have more planned for the XG platform as that would seem to be their one attempt at an entry into the 500cc or under market. And certainly it was designed with the world market in mind way more than the US.

And if we're comparing THAT to the KTM or this new entry-level BMW, then yes, in typical Harley fashion they are not chasing the lowest weight, highest hp per CC, or any flashy "technology". Which leads to the next question, SHOULD THEY BE? Answer - it depends...



« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 10:21:18 AM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline oldbike54

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24693
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2017, 10:38:44 AM »


                                              Introducing for 2018
                                                  The all new
                                              110 CI Vapor Glide

 Dusty
Transmit the message , to the receiver
Hope for an answer someday

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2017, 10:42:58 AM »
I actually have no disagreement with anything here, or didn't until you used the term "better" which is too subjective and a bit silly when comparing an existing product to vapor ware since as you said Harley ISN'T in that market but should be.

Sure you have a disagreement with me. You keep supporting a logic that HOG is in the picture when they are clearly clueless when it comes to survival.
So saying BMW's product is "better" than HOG's non existing product is "subjective and silly"? That's a good one Kev. I'll take it up a notch.  Seems to me that BMW's new G 310R as well as the KTM 390 Duke (and for that matter all the other new 300-500 cc bikes) are not only "better" but are light years ahead of HOG's entry level bike. "Subjective and Silly" is why the "Street" as in Wall Street is not so happy with HOG's performance in the market. HOG is behind the 8 ball and needs to get out there with something fast.
Red 90 Mille GT

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2017, 10:44:21 AM »

                                              Introducing for 2018
                                                  The all new
                                              110 CI Vapor Glide

 Dusty

 :drool:
Red 90 Mille GT

Offline sidecarnutz

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: SE Virginia
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2017, 11:01:09 AM »
Even old Guzzis had cutting edge technology in them. I was helping a old friend rebuild a convert years ago and since the factory never deburred the castings on the transmission, it neatly sliced the back of my hand open exposing a tendon. I still have the little scar from that. Maybe it is just my bias, but I don't care for cutting edge technology.
yeah, I might be addicted to brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.

1990 Cali III Tourer with Ural sidecar
2003 Royal Enfield Bullet 500

Offline redrider90

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2212
  • Location: NC
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2017, 11:06:47 AM »
Irgendetwas ist besser als gar nichts
Red 90 Mille GT

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28301
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2017, 11:26:23 AM »
Sure you have a disagreement with me. You keep supporting a logic that HOG is in the picture when they are clearly clueless when it comes to survival.
So saying BMW's product is "better" than HOG's non existing product is "subjective and silly"? That's a good one Kev. I'll take it up a notch.  Seems to me that BMW's new G 310R as well as the KTM 390 Duke (and for that matter all the other new 300-500 cc bikes) are not only "better" but are light years ahead of HOG's entry level bike. "Subjective and Silly" is why the "Street" as in Wall Street is not so happy with HOG's performance in the market. HOG is behind the 8 ball and needs to get out there with something fast.

OK, you're right about everything, I'm wrong. Harley can't and won't survive.

Also Subaru's WRX and Ford's Focus RS as so much better than the AWD performance car from Jeep too. I suspect Jeep will be the next to fold.

Is that better?

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline oldbike54

  • Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24693
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2017, 12:17:34 PM »
 The correct answer as always is "Blue" . Or Red , or Purple , or...

 Mommy , my head hurts , should I wait for the new Vapor Glide ?

 Dusty
Transmit the message , to the receiver
Hope for an answer someday

Offline kevdog3019

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 5648
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »
At the rate Guzzi and HD are going, if they hang around long enough they will be back in style eventually. Buy a Jap bike from the eighties and you'll feel like you're more technologically advanced than a current Guzzi.  :evil:
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Online canuck750

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4397
  • Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #106 on: July 24, 2017, 04:49:24 PM »
Stepping back from the debate I can relate to what Kev said about the RK being the right bike for him, fast enough, comfortable, dependable and can far exceed the posted speed limit, that sounds right by me.

My go to favorite bike for putting a smile on my face and not risking a big ticket is my 72 Eldorado, zero cutting edge technology, kinda slow, not much power but it just 'works'.

If the bike makes you smile and you feel safe on it then what's not to like.

1949 Guzzi Airone
1958 Guzzi Cardellino
1972 Guzzi Eldorado
1972 Benelli Enduro
1973 Guzzi V7 Sport
1973 Laverda SF1
1973 Benelli 650S
1974 Guzzi 750S
1975 Moto Morini 3 1/2
1975 Ducati 860 GT
1978 Moto Morini 500
2015 KLR 650
2016 BMW K1600

SOLD
1973 V7 Sport
1975 750 S3
1977 Le Mans
1993 1000

Offline Vagrant

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 890
  • Location: Gainesville, Ga or Green Valley Az.
Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #107 on: July 24, 2017, 04:57:14 PM »
Stepping back from the debate I can relate to what Kev said about the RK being the right bike for him, fast enough, comfortable, dependable and can far exceed the posted speed limit, that sounds right by me.

My go to favorite bike for putting a smile on my face and not risking a big ticket is my 72 Eldorado, zero cutting edge technology, kinda slow, not much power but it just 'works'.

If the bike makes you smile and you feel safe on it then what's not to like.

 :thumb:
the V7 has been around so long it's back in style!
for 2018 I hear they will come with a free pair of kevlar bell bottoms.
HE IS FREE WHO LIVES AS HE CHOOSES
2001 EV, 2015 Versys 1000, 2015 V7 2017 V7-3 Blue special
L-196, L-197

Offline Chesterfield

  • Weekend Warrior
  • ***
  • Posts: 191

 

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here