I'm trying to simplify and want to thank you all

[Aaron D.]

Extrapolation leads me to believe the rapture is nigh-but I don't know which crowd will be left behind and who will be in Paradise.

[Lannis]

Extrapolation leads me to believe the rapture is nigh-but I don't know which crowd will be left behind and who will be in Paradise.

You keep using that word.   I don't think it means what you think it means ..... 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sounds appropriate to me.. <scratching head>

[Triple Jim]

I went to work for Friden, Inc, a company based out of San Leandro CA, in 1969.
Fun stuff, nearly 50 years ago!!

We had a Friden and an SCM calculator in our computer lab in high school.  During lunch break we raced them by writing programs to do things like calculate prime numbers.  Generally the SCM took about half as long as the Friden to do the same job.  I'm not knocking Friden, the SCM was probably just a newer model.  For "real" programming we punched BASIC on 1" paper tape, and fed that into one of the teletypes that was linked to the county's computer via an audio coupled modem.  This was 1973-1975.

[Aaron D.]

You keep using that word.   I don't think it means what you think it means ..... 

I use all of those words frequently. I am sure I know what they mean to me.

[Lannis]

Recognize the good & bad - the good is too important to throw out with the bad.

[/color]

I think our respective opinions of what is "Good", and whether it is "good" enough to warrant putting up with the "bad", is the real issue.   To Muley to a great degree, to me and many others to a lesser degree, the "good" of making your life and mental health dependent on computer systems and social media is not worth the downside .... It's not hard to understand.

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

But.. Randown also said this..

Access to good medical information is getting better & better. Surviving is often the difference between you or your spouse being your own best advocate.

Which is true. BTDT. 
Believe me, I'm no fan of phone addicts. They generally try to kill me several times a trip. Truckers are getting terrible with running off the road. When we went to Pennsylvania this spring, we couldn't count the distracted semis on the turnpike.
Single vehicle fatalities are up. A lot.
That said, the computer revolution is here to stay, and there are many good things about it.  If a person "can't" moderate their usage, maybe they "should" quit cold turkey. <shrug> Other addicts have to do it that way.

[Lannis]

But.. Randown also said this (about access to medical information)..Which is true. BTDT. 

But ... I don't use the internet to look up "medical information", any more than I would use it for anything else my life depended upon.  I have a "doctor", several of them, in fact.   If my doctor needs to use it in order to learn the latest treatments or medications, that's good.   I don't, however, see how "social media", FB, and all the rest of the things that kill 10,000 people a year on the road have anything to do with that?

Lannis

[Cam Lay]

The mere presence of a smartphone is enstupidating...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170623133039.htm

Perhaps unlearning a fast cursive scribble wasn't such a good idea, either...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-take-notes-with-a-laptop/

I see everything already mentioned with my children and step-children, along with a truly frightening inability to look at a mechanical device and figure out how it might work in order to fix it. (Some of them, to be fair, mine less than the step-kids, thank you, but almost all of their friends.) So many of them suffer from so deep a lack of knowledge about how the simplest things work. And I do mean simple - what the walls in the house are made of and how it's attached; what kind of mechanism might be inside the car door to make it go up and down. If it can't be fixed by taking the battery out for a moment, they are helpless. Even worse, they don't consider it important.

one does what one must,
C

[rocker59]

BIL Harley Bob and Dorcia's sister Carol came over for dinner tonight, and I almost took a picture. I was making fajitas, Dorcia was making Margaritas, and they were looking at their phones constantly. 
Nice visit..

Try putting a basket on the table by the front door.  Label it "Phones/Tablets".  Next time they come over, require they deposit the phones in the basket before coming on in for dinner!

[Shorty]

The mere presence of a smartphone is enstupidating...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170623133039.htm

Perhaps unlearning a fast cursive scribble wasn't such a good idea, either...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-take-notes-with-a-laptop/

I see everything already mentioned with my children and step-children, along with a truly frightening inability to look at a mechanical device and figure out how it might work in order to fix it. (Some of them, to be fair, mine less than the step-kids, thank you, but almost all of their friends.) So many of them suffer from so deep a lack of knowledge about how the simplest things work. And I do mean simple - what the walls in the house are made of and how it's attached; what kind of mechanism might be inside the car door to make it go up and down. If it can't be fixed by taking the battery out for a moment, they are helpless. Even worse, they don't consider it important.

one does what one must,
C

And in a similiar vein, took my 5 Y.O.grandson to KFC. He was finishing his chicken leg when he made an amazing discovery. "Hey what is this inside the chicken?"    "It's a bone, son."  "Cool! Can I have it? I want to take it home!" And yes, he has his own devices and a FB account...    

[Lannis]

Try putting a basket on the table by the front door.  Label it "Phones/Tablets".  Next time they come over, require they deposit the phones in the basket before coming on in for dinner!

I've got a better solution.   I'm not inviting anyone to my house that would NEED a basket to remind them about simple civility and good manners ... any more than I would invite anyone who drains a pocket flask or snorts a line of coke 3 minutes after they come into my house.   It's the same thing.

Lannis

[rodekyll]

We not only had rooms full of 029's, we had a "verify" room where all the cards went to be punched a second time full of 129's!  The cardpunchers could go through a carton of T10 cards at about 40/min with no mistakes.  The really good ones went much faster.  If you dropped a load of cards or source paper going between those two rooms and they got out of order, god save the queen!   

Any mainframers remember the GE series 6?  It's still in use at the wastewater treatment plant in Sitka.  The chemicals in the air are so bad in the building that PCs rot and crumble in a year or two.  The GE is still working all the valves, gates, and lift pumps in town.  I used to have to find and resolder the corroded circuit board joints.  It was not only tedious, it smelled really bad.

[Lannis]

Quote from: Lannis on August 15, 2017, 10:35:45 PM
It was only 3 hours ago that he posted, I doubt if he's smashed his computer and burned his modem yet.

Probably will wait until tomorrow morning!

Lannis

___________________ ___________

well, I took him literally,  why didn't you?

Well, maybe I should have.   Looks like he logged off 10 seconds after his last post and hasn't looked in since ... I'd be a LITTLE curious but I think "cold turkey" means a hard-frozen Butterball to our Russ ... !

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

cam sez

Even worse, they don't consider it important.

That's my *real* gripe. "If for some obsure reason I need to know what is behind the wall, I can ask google."
I mentioned on another thread that I have a 21 year old kid running my cnc. I had the Monza up on the lift in the shop, doing an annual inspection and adjusting the valves. He came over, looked at the valve springs, and said, "are those the pistons? I've heard of them."
 
He's *not* my employee, and wouldn't be, but Ed the Rocket Scientist likes him. Not that he's a bad kid, I *like* him. Unlike many kids that have no social skills from phone use he is personable, and *not* stupid, but clueless about machinery.
Fortunately, there is another kid that is a gearhead. There is hope yet. 

[rodekyll]

The mere presence of a smartphone is enstupidating...
[snipity]

I see everything already mentioned with my children and step-children, along with a truly frightening inability to look at a mechanical device and figure out how it might work in order to fix it. (Some of them, to be fair, mine less than the step-kids, thank you, but almost all of their friends.) So many of them suffer from so deep a lack of knowledge about how the simplest things work. And I do mean simple - what the walls in the house are made of and how it's attached; what kind of mechanism might be inside the car door to make it go up and down. If it can't be fixed by taking the battery out for a moment, they are helpless. Even worse, they don't consider it important.

one does what one must,
C

A lot of people can't grasp the importance of understanding those basic concepts.  I recently tried to explain to a self-proclaimed mechanic that
" . . .a career wrench doesn't get too tied up in makes and models.  Makes and models come and go. with more new stuff pouring in every year, so it doesn't makes sense to become too model-focused.  A career mechanic gets familiar with fuel systems, electrical systems, suspensions, engine design and theory, etc.  Once he knows those things and has the shop book for the model specifics, the equipment itself is just a detail.  Do it enough and everything 'similar', like bikes or automobiles, start looking the same.  And when you can generalize troubleshooting principles, everything looks the same -- computers, lawn mowers, bikes, boats . . .  That's how I was able to build that trike from scratch -- understanding the systems that compose a vehicle and the tools, techniques, and components required to integrate them."

Here's what he replied:

"You are so full of shit I find it amazing. I am not some wannabe mechanic that will fall for your BS.   . . . . Having to deal with the differences in design, construction, for you to claim there is no difference is BULLSHIT !!    Claiming such just proves your ignorance on the subject."

This fella was older than I am, but those genetics and that mindset gets passed on.  It makes me sad for the generation coming along.  If it isn't happening on reality tv, it isn't happening for them.  What happens to a technologically dependent society when understanding the technologies is BS?

[Lannis]

It makes me sad for the generation coming along.  If it isn't happening on reality tv, it isn't happening for them.  What happens to a technologically dependent society when understanding the technologies is BS?

Then, the people who DO understand the technology, and the people who CAN interact with other humans (including leading them) without using their thumbs and a picture of their gnocchi ... they'll be the ones in charge.

We're already preparing our grandchildren for that.   Their lives will include hunting, fishing, cooking, working with Grandpa on the bikes, riding, and a lot of other neat stuff, and will NOT include their own phones and FB accounts ... As Cam says, if they get "Enstupidated", it's our fault, not the culture's or the world's fault.

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

"Enstupidated"

Good one, Cam. That needs to go in the Webster's. 

[Sheepdog]

I'm with Lannis (horrors!). There will always be folks who rise above fashion and the easiest path. All you must do to realize that humans are the same through history is read a little Mark Twain or Will Rogers (or Socrates, for that matter). The bad behaviors and outrageous acts of the past would be right at home in modern headlines. We've created some wondrous machines, but remain true to our human tendencies. It's like I told my kids: "Be thankful for the ignorant, the lazy, and the dishonest folks in the world. They make it easy to distinguish yourself."

[Huzo]

                                            'I got yer dotcom right here" 

 Shorty and I both had to be drug kicking AND screaming into 1998 , and now it's 2017 

 Dusty

Did you mean "drug" or " drugged" Dusty ?

[oldbike54]

Did you mean "drug" or " drugged" Dusty ?

 Yes .

 Dusty

[Huzo]

I use all of those words frequently. I am sure I know what they mean to me.

I thought it was ok...

[Triple Jim]

I don't, however, see how "social media", FB, and all the rest of the things that kill 10,000 people a year on the road have anything to do with that?

They don't.  It's the Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, NIH, Cleveland Clinic (etc.) web sites that provide good medical information that can help a person decide if it's time to go to a doctor.  When I look for medical information on the web, I usually search for something like "pancreatitis symptoms nih" and "pancreatitis sysptoms mayo", or just go to their sites directly and serch, which weeds out forums, quack sites, and other sources of nonsense.

[Lannis]

They don't.  It's the Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, NIH, Cleveland Clinic (etc.) web sites that provide good medical information that can help a person decide if it's time to go to a doctor.  When I look for medical information on the web, I usually search for something like "pancreatitis symptoms nih" and "pancreatitis sysptoms mayo", or just go to their sites directly and serch, which weeds out forums, quack sites, and other sources of nonsense.

I'm sure (like any other use of the internet) that there's some interesting information there, like "last English pirate" or "1000SP pinging" ...

... but whether there's an internet or not, I actually trust my doctor.   He's been my doctor for 30 years, he knows me inside and out (literally), and I don't need to get out a medical book or do a Google search to find out what might be wrong with me if I hurt or "feel funny".  I just go to him and tell him the symptoms.   Why would that change based on some highly generalized information on the Internet that I might find?   

Sure, I'm interested in my health.   I know the date of my next A1C test (August 21st, 90 days after my last one), I know all my blood chemistry, I know that I have incipient arthritis behind my right patella (hurts like hell at the moment but my orthopedist explained what to do), my blood pressure this morning was 130/80, and I know that my blood sugar this morning was 90.

I'm sorry, I'm just not going to go skipping around internet sites trying to figure out what that pain in my upper chest and shoulder is.  Others may want to do it; it may be a benefit to them, but it's not a benefit to me.

Where to buy the cheapest CR123 lithium batteries for my Streamlight?   Got it!   How to tell if I have pancreatic cancer?   No.

Lannis

[Triple Jim]

I guess I don't like the idea of going to my doctor and letting him make all the decisions any more than I like taking my Guzzi to a mechanic and letting him make all the decisions.  Gaining some knowledge first is never a bad thing, in my experience.

[Lannis]

I guess I don't like the idea of going to my doctor and letting him make all the decisions any more than I like taking my Guzzi to a mechanic and letting him make all the decisions.  Gaining some knowledge first is never a bad thing, in my experience.

At my shop there's a big sign above the door:

SHOP RATES:

$60.00 per hour
$80.00 per hour if you watch
$100.00 per hour if you help

I certainly wouldn't hand my crankshaft over to a machinist and say "I want this ground .010 undersized.   And let me tell you how I want to do it; plus, I know about setting these things up so I'm going to watch and make sure you do it OK - I saw it on the Internet!"

I can stay perfectly well up to date on my health without the Internet.

And I could never get into a "Google" car.   If Google has been monitoring my posts on various sites over the years, they'd drive my car straight off a cliff .... 

Lannis

[tazio]

The power of solid medical information from a reputable source(John Hopkins..etc..) should not be marginalized by the thinking that
everyone everywhere has routine access to there own Doctor. Sometimes we research these reputable sites to provide information to
others(Aunts, Uncles, the elderly..etc..) unable to get out to a doctor every time they feel funny.
Sometimes people are in denial of the serious nature of their symptoms until a trusted family member has "the talk" with them
and hopefully convince them to go.
 
 

[Lannis]

The power of solid medical information from a reputable source(John Hopkins..etc..) should not be marginalized by the thinking that
everyone everywhere has routine access to there own Doctor. Sometimes we research these reputable sites to provide information to
others(Aunts, Uncles, the elderly..etc..) unable to get out to a doctor every time they feel funny.
Sometimes people are in denial of the serious nature of their symptoms until a trusted family member has "the talk" with them
and hopefully convince them to go.
 

That's very true.   But we did that before the Internet, too.   My mother had a condition called "musical ear" where she heard music all the time, sort of like ringing in your ears except that it was melodies and songs.   It's a known condition and I got a book from the library about it and sat down with her and explained it and made her feel better about it.

I'm just giving counterexamples to the "There Was No Life Fit To Live Before Smart Phones" vibe that people seem to be on.    And if I had to navigate Paris alone in a car (the contingency IS remote), I'd probably ask for a GPS in the rental.   But own one for driving in this country?  Not worth it .. to ME.

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

But own one for driving in this country?  Not worth it .. to ME.

When I first took the 1000SP to LA.. without a GPS, I'd still be like the man called Charlie that rode the MTA. 

[Triple Jim]

I certainly wouldn't hand my crankshaft over to a machinist and say "I want this ground .010 undersized.   And let me tell you how I want to do it; plus, I know about setting these things up so I'm going to watch and make sure you do it OK - I saw it on the Internet!"

I've had a couple crankshafts reground.  I do research ahead of time, and make measurements with my 2"-3" micrometer so I know how much needs to be removed.  Then I go to the machinist with the crank and explain what I'd like him to do, letting him know that if he sees a flaw in my plan that I'd like him to tell me.  Then when I get the crank back, I use plastigage to check the bearing clearances before closing up the engine.  To put it back together and install in in the vehicle without checking the clearances would be grossly negligent in my opinion.

But I don't see much parallel to my relationship with my doctor(s) because I'm not trained in doctorin' like I'm trained in machining.  I do believe that doing some reading about the relevant medical subjects allows me to ask intelligent questions and helps me make informed decisions about my health though.