A new Guzzi engine

[Kev m]

Rotax four stroke aircraft engines have water cooled heads and air cooled barrels.  The idea in that application is that the heads need to be water cooled because of the power density of the engine at full power, but air cooling the barrels in the event of cooling system failure you can limp home at reduce power. Not so much a factor for a motorcycle engine but something to consider - one reason I prefer air cooled engines is reliability.

Not for nothing, but I believe BMW also made that point when they introduced the wet-head R-bikes.

Such logic goes a long way to making an air-cooled guy like me more open to the possibility.

[blackcat]

Most Japanese engines will go 100,000 miles without ever cracking the engine open to fix something that they didn't do correctly. 

Most well maintained Guzzi engines easily go over 100,000 miles. Ask Karl Werth.

[Kev m]

Most well maintained Guzzi engines easily go over 100,000 miles. Ask Karl Werth.

I assumed he was referring to models such as the flat tappet 8V, or hydro Calis which MIGHT fit that bill after the recalls, but certainly didn't before.

[Orange Guzzi]

If the Hydro motor was a v-8 it would have 260 cubic inch displacement and 300 h.p.  while being dependable and getting 40 plus miles per gallon. 

The 1100 Guzzi engine is a very well balanced package. 

[kenvil1]

So the've half arsed it!

Not at all. BMW have kept their historical model alive in spite of Euro standards. Besides, they also offer a fully water-cooled model in the K1600 if that's what you want.

The V7 is Moto Guzzi's nod to the past, so if they can retain the model by adding a measure of water-cooling, everybody wins. The lesser output of the small block V7 compared to the R1200 means that the Guzzi should only require the addition of a small unobtrusive radiator. They can always create newer engines to please those who want more power.

[Kev m]

If the Hydro motor was a v-8 it would have 260 cubic inch displacement and 300 h.p.  while being dependable and getting 40 plus miles per gallon. 

The 1100 Guzzi engine is a very well balanced package.

Not sure what this has to do with the point that one still wouldn't have made it to 100k miles without replacing the valve train. Which is a fecking shame.

That said, I had to check your math - assuming no additional frictional losses the 260 cu in motor would be making a claimed 288 hp at the crank. I guess this is not a bad thing for a 4.4L motor.

But for reference the 220 cu. in. (3.6L) V6 in my Jeep makes that.

*shrugs*

[blackcat]

I assumed he was referring to models such as the flat tappet 8V, or hydro Calis which MIGHT fit that bill after the recalls, but certainly didn't before.

Yes I understand those problems, but I'd still say that most big block Guzzi's from its inception until today will easily go over 100K without a major rebuild. And you can still get most parts for those engines.

[pete roper]

When I did a recent overhaul on a 1200 Sport at 200,000km the only things it really needed, as in 'Had to have RIGHT NOW!' Were piston rings and k-lines in the guides. Yes we replaced a whole load of other stuff because it would of needed it before it had done another 200,000 and it was easy as we had it apart but those two items were the only 'Must Haves'. I'm pretty certain a roller 8V will be similarly reliable.

Pete

[waxi]

Opened Facebook and first thing was:



Edit: Here is original Italian text:

[kidsmoke]

directly related to the above post.

Where's Nick, perhaps he can translate

https://www.insella.it/news/moto-guzzi-eicma-2017-arriva-un-nuovo-motore-142702

[JeffOlson]

^ You missed something important:



"New Stelvio coming?
Moto Guzzi had to remove the Stelvio from the list because of its air-cooled engine that was not in compliance with the Euro 4 anti-pollution regulations. The vacuum that was formed in the range is absolutely to be filled, but the first step to launching a new model is to create a motor that has the rules in place for the rules. At EICMA 2017 we could already see it, perhaps as a prototype: recently Davide Zanolini, Piaggio's Vice President for Marketing and Communications, released an interview with Cycle World that "Moto Guzzi is working hard on a new engine. Radical evolution compared to V7, V9 units and 1.4-liter V-twin cylinders. We should be able to present to Eicma a real novelty, albeit at the concept stage. " The more informed they say that the new Moto Guzzi engine will follow a similar pattern to the BMW and Harley-Davidson: Mixed cooling system with liquid cooled heads and valves and air cooled cylinders, leaving a classic style touch to the engine. We are looking forward to the EICMA opening to find out if the new engine will equip the new Stelvio, as long as it is desired and desired by the guzzling fans, or another new model. To fool the wait, follow all the EICMA 2017 updates in our special!"

[waxi]

Thanks for translation (and chick)

[Socalrob]

One big advantage both MotoGuzzi and BMW boxer moters have is not cooking the rider.  Go read a KTM forum and see how many discussions there are about heat and cooked riders.  That rear cylinder and its exhaust pipe put a whole lot of heat under the rider and also cook the bike's electronics, where instead the BMW and  MotoGuzzi shed a lot of heat out in the open where it has little effect on the rider.  Bikes that make 140hp by definition must shed lots of heat.  I don't want that.

I like the idea of a mildly water cooled motor that maybe in small block form ups the HP to mid/low 60's.  Keep the radiator small so it does not shed huge heat on the rider.

BMW changed the air flow through the engine on the water cooled bikes.  Now it's top to bottom, so the exhaust pipe exits the cylinder by the rider's foot instead of out the front of the cylinder where the hottest part of the pipe is out front farthest from the rider.  Low and behold, last time I test rode a water cooled boxer in slow traffic, I had to move my foot to outside part of pegs to keep from getting hot feet.  So even minor changes for efficiency can have negative impacts.  Let's hope MG keeps things mostly the way they are.

[Tusayan]

High power engines do not by definition shed lots of heat.  The amount of heat rejected by an engine is a function of the power it is making at any given time, which has nothing to do with the rated power of the engine, and the thermal efficiency of the engine.  It is true that higher powered engines tend to be less efficient in low power operation, but I think the main reason higher powered water cooled engines feel hot to the rider is that heat is rejected by the radiator at the relatively low temperature of the coolant instead of the higher CHT of an air cooled engine.  That means more volume of cooling air is required to do the job, and more heated air blowing back at the rider   

[Arizona Wayne]

On a water cooled maxi-scooter the rider doesn't feel any heat from the motor under his butt. 

On an air cooled Guzzi w/o lowers like my CX100 you feel the cylinder heat by tucking your legs in behind the jugs or spread you legs out a little and the jug heat goes between your legs & bike.  So you have  a choice of which you want when. 

My `91 Suzuki VX800 w/inline 805cc V twin is water cooled w/narrow verticle radiator in front of motor and you don't feel it's motor heat at all even tho it goes up to 127 mph top speed. 

[pete roper]

"Albeit at the concept stage."

A wooden mock up does not a new engine or new model make.

[guzzisteve]

I think it was a mistake not to advance the 'Pig' motor in the 90's. It is still current by Guzzi standards, look what they're still using. The company would be way different if they went watercooled then but they are always broke.

this one
http://images.mcn.bauercdn.com/upload/180006/images/540x360/931235731103.jpg?mode=pad

[kenvil1]

Rotax four stroke aircraft engines have water cooled heads and air cooled barrels.  The idea in that application is that the heads need to be water cooled because of the power density of the engine at full power, but with air cooled barrels in the event of cooling system failure you can limp home at reduced power.

Your comment reminds me of Cadillac's Northstar engine with its "limp home" fail-safe mode which allowed the engine to continue running for a limited time without any coolant. Fuel would be supplied to only one cylinder bank in turn, and the inactive bank would be "air cooled" internally. This was made possible by the engine's all-aluminum construction and large oil capacity.

[Mr Revhead]

Your comment reminds me of Cadillac's Northstar engine with its "limp home" fail-safe mode which allowed the engine to continue running for a limited time without any coolant. Fuel would be supplied to only one cylinder bank in turn, and the inactive bank would be "air cooled" internally. This was made possible by the engine's all-aluminum construction and large oil capacity.

Jeez, how bad are you engines if you have to design such an extreme limp mode? 

[Kev m]

Jeez, how bad are you engines if you have to design such an extreme limp mode? 

They didn't HAVE TO, and it's very unique. I think designed cause they could not because they needed it.

[Bonaventure]

Well, if Guzzi intends for the 2018 Stelvio to compete against the 2018 Multistrada they'd better have done their homework.  Ducati is taking the 1260cc Diavel engine and tweaking it for intro in the Multistrada for model yr 2018.  The emissions paperwork filings have already been done with California Air Resources Board (CARB).  Old news now (came out in July) but worth mentioning.  Hope Ducati "rounds upward" and calls it the Multistrada 1300, because 1260 would sound stupid. 

I think the main reason is because they just couldn't tune out the torque flat spot around 5000-6000 rpm in the 1200 (1198) Testastretta DVT engine, so they're ditching the entire 1200 DVT motor and using the Diavel's version instead. 

[arveno]

moto guzzi will present a "concept " engine , i assume it will not be in a concept bike but on an engine stand.

How long do we have to wait for this concept engine to become a real motorcycle that can be purchased at the moto guzzi dealer ?

2020 ?

..i am not getting any younger....lol they better hurry up.

[Murray]

Jeez, how bad are you engines if you have to design such an extreme limp mode? 

Is it a reflection of the engine or the behaviour the engineers expect out of their customers?

[Socalrob]

High power engines do not by definition shed lots of heat.  The amount of heat rejected by an engine is a function of the power it is making at any given time, which has nothing to do with the rated power of the engine, and the thermal efficiency of the engine.  It is true that higher powered engines tend to be less efficient in low power operation, but I think the main reason higher powered water cooled engines feel hot to the rider is that heat is rejected by the radiator at the relatively low temperature of the coolant instead of the higher CHT of an air cooled engine.  That means more volume of cooling air is required to do the job, and more heated air blowing back at the rider

Now there are some semantics.  OK, high power engines must have the ability to shed lots of heat.

And it is not insignificant.  If a high powered bike gets 35mph, and a low power guzzi gets 55mph, both while cruising at 65mph, which bike is burning more calories and must shed more heat, thus being more likely to cook the rider?

While I see your point about the radiater heating a larger volume of air (but to a lower degree of heat), the KTM riders who complain about heat sure seem focused on the rear cylinder/rear pipe as being the source.  As the V-twins have grown larger and larger, the heat problems have increased.  Even at idle, a 1200 water cooled engine capable of making 160hp is going to put out significantly more heat than a V7 motoguzzi capable of making 50 hp, which is a big reason the 1200 will drink more gas for a given distance, at the same speed.  My 690KTM, which is water cooled, but gets relatively the same fuel mileage as my V7iii, puts out no more or little more noticeable heat than the V7iii.

[Murray]

Now there are some semantics.  OK, high power engines must have the ability to shed lots of heat.

And it is not insignificant.  If a high powered bike gets 35mph, and a low power guzzi gets 55mph, both while cruising at 65mph, which bike is burning more calories and must shed more heat, thus being more likely to cook the rider?

While I see your point about the radiater heating a larger volume of air (but to a lower degree of heat), the KTM riders who complain about heat sure seem focused on the rear cylinder/rear pipe as being the source.  As the V-twins have grown larger and larger, the heat problems have increased.  Even at idle, a 1200 water cooled engine capable of making 160hp is going to put out significantly more heat than a V7 motoguzzi capable of making 50 hp, which is a big reason the 1200 will drink more gas for a given distance, at the same speed.  My 690KTM, which is water cooled, but gets relatively the same fuel mileage as my V7iii, puts out no more or little more noticeable heat than the V7iii.

Unfortunatly it not a simple question of power lean burn catlytic converters and emissions will have an effect of heat production as well as output of the motor.

[Xlratr]

Found an article on the Italian language GPONE site just now. This is the Google translation. Let's see what they show in November.

"Moto Guzzi: to EICMA a "revolutionary" concept

The Mandello House is preparing an important novelty for 2018. New engine and lines will be the basis for future models

- Mon, 16/10/2017 - 20:28


The Eagle flies high. For EICMA, the guys of Moto Guzzi are preparing a juicy preview of what will be the future of Mandello's brand. Engaged for a long time in the revival of the glorious banner, the Pontedera Group is focusing its efforts to bring back what Italy's two-wheeler is a real symbol and which, for history and tradition, does not fear rivals. A 10-year project that has now reached halfway through its path.

Until now, the range of V7 and V9 air cooled stainless steel stainless steel engines has been refined, in addition to the big cruiser and the monumental MGX-21. Means that, season after season, have seen improvements in design, finishing and that they are now gaining space in the markets especially in the US. Of course there is still room for improvement, but the traced track seems to be on the right track: history, charm, tradition that is renewed, the peculiarities of the current Guzzi. But they are not enough.

PUNTO DI SVOLTA? - Certainty is that today, halfway through the development plan set by the Colaninno Group, it is perhaps ready for a new era in the Guzzi home. And the next EICMA will be a very important bank for the history of Aquila. Certainly the presence of a concept, which the Group men themselves call "revolutionary". The novelty starts with the engine - which will see a potential (1000-1200 cc) capacity - that will have nothing to do with current Big Bore or Small Block and will adopt a mixed cooling system with the head part cooled to liquid while lower air cylinders should remain cool for the cylinders. This will be the engine of the new course, as will be the concept built around it. Swollen stitches obviously on the type of motion, which could simply be a style exercise and that will launch concepts that we will see on the production of the near future. But we can not rule out a model that we will soon see on the market, with the period that seems ripe for a return of a crossover model (required by enthusiasts), or even a new and exciting cafe sport, a motorcycle concept today most demanded and that in a brand like Guzzi could find easy shore.

Whatever the novelty is, it is certain that, today as today, there is a need for a dynamic and evolving Guzzi. The road has been traced, now you do not have to see where it will take and wait in the near future, starting just from November 7th. EICMA will tell us everything."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Moto]

Swollen stitches?

Can hardly wait for that.

Moto

[Kev m]

I think this quote tells us what many have been suspecting may be true:

The novelty starts with the engine - which will see a potential (1000-1200 cc) capacity - that will have nothing to do with current Big Bore or Small Block and will adopt a mixed cooling system with the head part cooled to liquid while lower air cylinders should remain cool for the cylinders. This will be the engine of the new course, as will be the concept built around it.

New engine, same basic layout but water-cooled heads. If they do as good a job integrating it as say Triumph did with the new Bonnie it could be beautiful and efficient.

I'll remain cautiously optimistic.

[Phang]

maybe a  water/air cooled engine with integrated transmission in the crankcase and multiplates wet clutch.

no more classic automotive layout

[oldbike54]

Swollen stitches?

Can hardly wait for that.

Moto

  Beware the swollen stitches hiding in the shadows causing crashes into ditches .

 OK , not my best work , it's early yet 

 Hmm ,  motorbike remove from owner rightful result often in swollen stitches 

 Someone help me out here , there is a good pun here , just can't locate it 

 Dusty