A new Guzzi engine

[Seagondollar]

Two pages from MCN

1)  "A new Moto Guzzi engine - Moto Guzzi will show a new concept engine at the Milan Show next month after Euro4 regulations made producing air-cooled engines much tougher."

2)  From a link on that page:

"Moto Guzzi ready to show new engine concept
Published: Today 11:53

After the range was thinned by Euro4, Guzzi will show us new concept at EICMA
Moto Guzzi ready to show new engine concept
Tightening emissions standards are not air-cooled engines’ best friends, so it came as no real surprise when the adventure touring Stelvio quietly bowed out of Moto Guzzi’s 2017 range.

While the bike did have a following, it wasn’t exactly a sales storm (just 7000 units over its eight year run) and ultimately Guzzi said that the investment needed to bring the engine in line with Euro4 wasn’t worth it. The by-product of this is that the Guzzi range is a looking a little threadbare, with only the V7, V9, California and insane MGX-21 cruiser remaining – which begs the question: what’s next for Guzzi?"

[ITSec]

Well, we'll have to wait till November 7th to see what actually shows up in Milan.

[JeffOlson]

Perhaps a little vino would loosen some tight lips...

[ITSec]

Perhaps a little vino would loosen some tight lips...

Maybe - but I think those guys use enough on a daily basis to have built up their immunity!

[Seagondollar]

Well, we'll have to wait till November 7th to see what actually shows up in Milan.

And then a few years for it to make it to the states.

[motocruz]

I know people do not like change. And we new water cooled was coming any day now. I say a compact V4 and I don't mean 4 valves per cylinder, but actually 4 cylinders. This would fit nice in a Stelvio and Norge with 125+ hp. Then a large V2 for the cruiser range with lots of torque. Guzzi has the experience to produce both but financially probably to hard to do. Looking forward to November........

[lucian]

Part of me is thinking, about friggin time. The other part is thinking, how sad to legislate something as beautiful as an air cooled twin out of existence. Very mixed emotions on this one.

[rodekyll]

They're seriously late to the party.  I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.

Just don't do what Indian did with the fake fins.  That's just embarrassing.

[blackcat]

Four cyclinders...ugh, no thanks.

[Tusayan]

They're seriously late to the party.  I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.

It's worthwhile to understand that "they" here means Piaggio, not Moto Guzzi because Moto Guzzi is today the historical name of an assembly plant that employs about 130 people in total, not much more. When Piaggio bought Aprilia and Guzzi came along for the ride, the first thing they did was drop Rotax as an Aprilia engine supplier and replace the Rotax engine with v-twins developed by Piaggio.  A guy I know worked on those Piaggio/Aprilia engines during development in Pontedera.  Piaggio does their own engines, for everything from Vespas to Aprilias to Guzzis.

If it were to be a four cylinder engine they already have the Aprilia V4, but I doubt that would integrate well into the kind of 'relaxed lifestyle' bike that Piaggio sees Guzzi representing.  But I could be wrong.

[steven c]

 They should just buy the rights to manufacture the Motus V 4, it would be a perfect modern Guzzi motor.

[JeffOlson]

Piaggio does their own engines, for everything from Vespas to Aprilias to Guzzis.

Does Moto Guzzi not make engines any longer?

[Tusayan]

Piaggio does their own engines, for everything from Vespas to Aprilias to Guzzis.

Does Moto Guzzi not make engines any longer?

Piaggio includes Mandello (i.e. "Moto Guzzi"), and my comment was in relation to Rotax (not part of Piaggio) not having supplied Aprilia since the Piaggio takeover years ago.   

In answer to your question, the Mandello plant assembles engines from parts largely and increasingly manufactured by subcontractors.  Guzzis are then assembled at Mandello using parts likewise sourced mainly from subcontractors.  No Piaggio design work for any product is done at Mandello because they have no engineering capability, so design work is done at other Piaggio facilities.  For Guzzis all powertrain design work for over a decade has been done at Pontedera, at the Piaggio main plant.

[Psychopasta]

Well, they've been doing a pretty good job of it, if the V7III engine and the Cali engine are anything to go by. - Pasta

[Tusayan]

Piaggio is competent at engine design and development work, although not perfect, as the lifter issues on the Guzzi 8V engines demonstrate.   I'm told they had quite a learnign curve when moving to larger engines, most of what they designed before 2005 was small Vespa engines etc.

[Kev m]

Well, they've been doing a pretty good job of it, if the V7III engine and the Cali engine are anything to go by. - Pasta

As long as we leave the V7 II's with the MISSING CRANKSHAFT THRUST WASHER and the whole uh flat-tappet 8V's out of the conversation, then yeah, they're doing a Bang Up Job! 

[normzone]

Yeah, from the point of view of my day job, the flat tappet 8V (rollerization required, correct ?) is all on the design boys.

The thrust washer being forgotten during assembly just seems unlikely to me - but I'm a QA guy, so most of the world seems unlikely.

I wonder if it was something accidentally omitted by the design crew (unlikely) or added after somebody identified the potential failure mode in a post production startup design review. I've a difficult time picturing the manufacturing engineer leaving it out of his assembly instructions. Validation usually includes checking for leftover parts from the bill of materials.

[perter]

I don't care, I have my aircooled V2 already... only need to buy 3 more so each kid can get one when I'm not here anymore 

[arveno]

 "concept " engine........... that will never happen

the only concept bike that really happened is the frying fortress and well..... to be honest.... it should not have happened...

Ippogrifo ?  where are you ? LOL

Piaggio really killed the brand.
no sport bike
no enduro

just blacked out HD wannabe motorcycles..... keep hoping lol

[Kev m]

Yeah, from the point of view of my day job, the flat tappet 8V (rollerization required, correct ?) is all on the design boys.

The thrust washer being forgotten during assembly just seems unlikely to me - but I'm a QA guy, so most of the world seems unlikely.

I wonder if it was something accidentally omitted by the design crew (unlikely) or added after somebody identified the potential failure mode in a post production startup design review. I've a difficult time picturing the manufacturing engineer leaving it out of his assembly instructions. Validation usually includes checking for leftover parts from the bill of materials.

I see what you're saying, but the designs didn't change. Unless they're covering something up they are claiming the literally the thrust washer was left out of a build run (new guy?!?).

[pete roper]

Nothing has changed substantially in the bottom end of the smallblock since its inception in '78 or whenever. The thrust faces have always been a bit wear prone but it is their absence that promoted the 'Premature Death' experience with that run of V7-II's (From memory? I think they were II'S?).

The 'New guy' suggestion is probably right. You must remember these things aren't lovingly hand crafted by skilled artisans in a silent, Trappist monk like silence in some sort of temple to excellence! They are slapped together by poorly paid, semi-skilled production line workers in Noale who are probably more inclined to be thinking about what they'll be having for dinner or who might be shagging their missus while they're at work! The missing thrust faces were an oversight, not a design flaw.

Pete

[Tusayan]

They are slapped together by poorly paid, semi-skilled production line workers in Noale

Noale is the Aprilia plant, just outside of Venice.   I'd be interested in knowing why the small block Guzzi engines might be assembled there.  Here's a photo of a small block engine in final assembly at Mandello.  http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7032C/motoguzzi-motorcycle-factory-in-mandello-lario-italy-E7032C.jpg

[bad Chad]

I believe the small block motor have always been assembled else where, from the beginning.  As I recall they came into being when DeThomas owned the company and he was slapping them together at one of his auto factories.

[Tusayan]

Small block Guzzis (the bikes not the engines) were once assembled by Innocenti, during the De Tomaso era.   

Here's a photo of a Mandello engine assembly mechanic peering into a partially assembled small block engine to ensure the thrust washer is missing   

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7032F/motoguzzi-motorcycle-factory-in-mandello-lario-italy-E7032F.jpg

[pete roper]

When I was at the factory in Mandello last year it was clearly only a couple of assembly lines for bolting together larger components that were trucked in. I may be wrong but my understanding was that all the major engine and motive components, (Motors, gearboxes, bevelboxes etc.) are assembled in Noale although I suppose it could be any one of a number of Piaggio facilities. Certainly in the old factory things like the above mentioned components come in on pallets and are then batch assembled in various model runs. When we were there they had one line assembling V9's and one doing MGX-21's or whatever that thing is called. Presumably done so they could show off their 'Flagship' models.

If any engine assembly is being done at Mandello it must be bloody well hidden! 

Pete

[pete roper]

Small block Guzzis (the bikes not the engines) were once assembled by Innocenti, during the De Tomaso era.   

Here's a photo of a Mandello engine assembly mechanic peering into a partially assembled small block engine to ensure the thrust washer is missing   

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7032F/motoguzzi-motorcycle-factory-in-mandello-lario-italy-E7032F.jpg

Actually that pic does look chaotic enough to be Mandello!

[Tusayan]

If any engine assembly is being done at Mandello it must be bloody well hidden! 

Guzzi engine assembly and test hasn't been hidden on any of my multiple visits to Mandello. 

I was in Mandello last month, but only visited the museum.  I've been there a lot of times, but it seems to me the last time I was actually in the engine assembly and test area was around the time the photos of that area were taken in the links posted above, around 2010. It is possible that after 90 years, Guzzi engine production was moved away by Piaggio in the period since 2010.  Nothing surprises me with Piaggio, but I can't imagine why given that engine production was a core function of the Mandello plant, including engine production for other manufacturers. 

[jas67]

They're seriously late to the party.  I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.

Rather than Rotax (not that would be a bad thing), why not just turn a water cooled Aprilia V-twin the correct direction and connect a driveshaft to it.   That'll require redesigned cases, but, the top end, crank, and most of the transmission can stay the same, as can engine management system (ignition, fuel injection, etc).

[jas67]

As long as we leave the V7 II's with the MISSING CRANKSHAFT THRUST WASHER and the whole uh flat-tappet 8V's out of the conversation, then yeah, they're doing a Bang Up Job! 

Don't forget the Hydro motors (or did those pre-date Piaggio)?

[Kev m]

Don't forget the Hydro motors (or did those pre-date Piaggio)?

I was assuming that was Aprilia's or Guzzi's fault. But no, I didn't forget. I almost bought one new before there was a fix. It would have probably ruined me for the brand.